Don't forget there is a Collegiate Commission. They should have alot of club contact info and some additional rescourses. I know the commissioner for the Midwest/Mideast teams is Paul 'Phlash' Harris (coach@asphaltjockeys.com). He coaches Purdue, Miami, and maybe Ohio State, I'm not sure. Great guy, very motivated.

Purdue always competed in Mideast Regional Club Series (MERCRS). But the way the thing is scored puts any college team at a serious disadvantage because most college teams only compete in 1 or 2 age groups. Still, there scoring system could make a good model for something we could use. Basically you can score points for performance, participation, and distance travelled to the race. It's not the perfect system, but they're still working the kinks out. I'll post a link to the scoring rules once I find it.

Scott

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"Triathlon" is a misspell according to the Slowtwitch spell checker.

Great discussion guys. As far as looking to USAT, I dont think that is really necessary nor do I think it is their responsibility. If anything, a push should be made to make triathlon a NCAA sport, but since that wont happen, we should promote collegiate races to race directors.

As for regions, although there is not much communication between schools, the Mid-Atlantic region has a championship in the fall every year that is pretty well attended. Last month, Navy, Army, Appalacian St, Virginia Tech, James Madison, Penn State, and my school, Virginia, all sent teams to the Outback Olympic Distance Tri for the Mid-Atlantic Collegiate Championships. Unfortunately, that is the only race in the area that I'm aware of that has a collegiate division.

I think the best way to set up collegiate races is to add them as a seperate catagory to already existing AG races. Everyone from Virginia who went to Outback had a great time so more races will only increase participation and most RDs will gladly add another divison if it means more entries. Anyway, I'd like to help get things organized here in the Mid-Atlantic region so lets work together to get some more races together.

Andrew- ajh3x@virginia.edu

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Team Timex 2014
@ajhodges

I guess we all feel that if USCF can run a successful, organized collegiate program, then why can't USAT? The only reasonable answer I can give for that is that putting on a triathlon is much more technically difficult than a cycling race. But then again, aside from Nationals I don't think collegiate triathlon needs stand alone events. So what is different the big difference between college triathlon and college cycling?

Scott

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"Triathlon" is a misspell according to the Slowtwitch spell checker.

Here is a copy of the email I sent out to the presidents of the college teams I listed above:

Greetings Presidents!

After a brainstorming session over at slowtwitch.com started by the UCLA president Marcus George, the idea of putting together a collegiate conference (unofficial of course) for the Great Lakes area was suggested.

The idea is simple: a group of college triathlon club teams competing against each other a few times a year outside of the poorly managed USAT regional and national championships.

The thinking is to get some sort of race schedule set-up first, and then fret about details later. Because at this point the best thing we can do as teams is race against each other, the finer details of things like scoring and rules for a conference can be dealt with later. This is a horse before the cart set-up.

An idea tossed around was to have the teams from each state (Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Ohio, and Wisconsin) compile a list of the big name and well attended races in their state. Once we have such a list then we can go about selecting one from each state that meets certain criteria (like how close is it to the other schools? is the race director willing to give a discount on the entry fee if we can promise 20, 30, 40 athletes? what time of year does the race occur? do we want all Olys, or is a 1/2 IM good to have? et cetera). Then we'd have 6 races comprising a schedule where each school agrees to attend, be it 3 people each, 4, 10, or 100!

I predict that race directors at bigger races, like Sylvania, Steelhead, BigFoot, (Boilerman is already $20, so that's an easy one!), Fat Rabbit, and so on would be ecstatic to setup a special collegiate division if it meant having 30 more athletes that otherwise wouldn't have been attending the race.

There is a great deal of potential for this, and all of these ideas are just that, ideas. My hope is that everyone of you has some creative input for this concept and we can form a conference much the way the West Coast triathlon teams have.

Cheers,
Ken Cavagnolo
MSU Tri Team "Faculty" Advisor

Ken Cavagnolo
Graduate Assistant
Physics and Astronomy Dept.
Michigan State University

[reply]But then again, aside from Nationals I don't think collegiate triathlon needs stand alone events. So what is different the big difference between college triathlon and college cycling?[/reply]

You're right, we don't need stand alone events, what we should do is utilize the infrastructure already setup by well organized, well attended races. You know what RDs like to have at their races, a slew of competitive athletes. Well, we've got them, and now we're going to organize them!

Wow, so many great ideas here. Exactly what I was looking for. I'm swamped with research, homework, and training until Thursday evening. I'll respond to some of the stuff that was posted then!

Just as it is tough to "get the ball rolling" when trying to get a club off the ground, generating enough interest to take action on the issues brought up here is also very difficult. I'm glad to see others are at least concerned about the issues and willing to take some action.

Marcus George, President
UCLA Triathlon
http://www.triathlon.ucla.edu

I agree that it needs to start at a regional level and evolve from there. My offer stands to help get everything set up and coordinated between the regions. I have someone with time who wouldn't mind working on this.



Nik

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NIK
www.athletelife.org

Please keep me in the loop. Ken Mierke at CoachKen@erols.com

Thanks, Ken

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Ken Mierke
Head Coach, Fitness Concepts
http://www.Fitness-Concepts.com
Author, The Triathlete's Guide to Run Training

Astrotri alerted me to the structure of the Collegiate Water Polo Assc. which he thought would be a good model for Collegiate Triathlon (http://www.collegiatewaterpolo.org/html/)

(Disclaimer: I am not a college student - haven't been one for 10+ years. Just an interested party who likes solving problems)

In Summary:

The CWPA is a NCAA recognized non-profit 501 (c)-3 organization consisting of 100+ club and varsity programs.

It's Board is comprised of college administrators / coaches.

It appears to have two full-time employees - Commissioner of the league and Director of Officiating.

Services provided: Scheduling of competition, administration, job placement, discount hotel/travel and overseeing officials.

It has Gross Revenues of ~320K against roughly the same amount of expenses.

Major revenue sources:
League dues: ~ $300K (anywhere from $950-$1225per institution depending on # of games in season)

Major Expenses:
Referees : $166K
G&A: $89K ($66K in salaries)



Observations
Seems to me that if triathlon was going to use exisisting races for their schedule then they wouldn't need to hire,pay,oversee referees.

Conversely, the clubs would have to pay the entry fees to said exisitng races creating additional expenses.


Ken Corwen

That is good information. I will look into that a bit more tonight. It looks like a good model to follow. It is exactly what this thread seems to think the collegiate scene needs - just some organization and coordination among already established teams.

Nik

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NIK
www.athletelife.org

I would be happy to act as "commissioner" if you guys like.

Aside from having a flexible work schedule I have a BA from Dartmouth, an MBA from NYU, and I presently am treasurer of a fairly large non-profit in NYC.

Glad to be of any help possible

Keep me posted.

Hi everyone, I was the president of the U of Montana club for a few years and the current coach. I would like to be kept in the loop. email oprfcc@hotmail.com

We have tried and failed at setting up races with other clubs in the northwest. We have our own race but I don't think most people enjoy racing in early april in montana. If your from oregon, washington, idaho, wyoming, or BC/ Alberta were open to racing.

elliot bassett

Not sure if you got an e-mail contact for U of Michigan, but in case you didn't, you can use me. I'm in my last year, but I helped get the tri club off the ground at the end of last year, and am friends with the prez. My e-mail is aeversme@umich.edu.

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I race duathlons and like it.

awesome, I needed a contact for someone at UofM. I wrote the Ann Arbor Tri Club prez hoping he'd forward along the info, but I'll send you the email too.

FYI, for the midwest guys out there, Fat Rabbit Racing has a collegiate only race out there.

http://www.fatrabbitracing.com/events/ScarletGray/

Just wanted to make sure you guys were aware of it.

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Striving to have sex more than 66 times per year

This all sounds great. I'm heading a club at Dartmouth that's getting back together. Anything at all is appreciated.

e-mail - darrell.hoy@dartmouth.edu

Darrell

Scott,

?, If you could put on the perfect collegiate triathlon
here in the Mideast (IN,KY,IL,MI,OH) would you have
just one race to get all the college teams to go in a
head to head competition OR a series of races.Also,
as I believe you are a member of a collegiate triathlon
club, what would you like to see as a reward to the
winning club. Trophy, cash etc.

It was tried years ago in the region but we had very low
turnout. It was basically your club, Purdue and U of
K. I would love to see it come back to the forefront.


Eric was correct about the Scarlet & Gray Triathlon as an 2005 collegiate club race. Not part of the MERCRS but may be a designated collegiate points race. I have talked with Fat Rabbit about the 2006 race.

Help me out here if you can and let me work on it. I know USAT is getting flamed pretty hard these days and I will not comment on that, but it takes $$$ to make races, club races, collegiate races, MERCRS
races happen.

Email me personally or use this forum.

I say huge freakin trophy

Ken just updated me on the status of this little plan, and apparently USAT got wind of this thread and are actually offering to help. So we should still come up with some of these ideas and help submit to usat if nothing happens. But I really do hope this thing works out, as it would be great to have this done for triathlon as a whole and the U.S.'s development of triathletes. Please keep the ideas rolling and we still need to propose a list of races for the different regions. Hopefully we can designate someone from each region to investigate possible races for conferences. That is only if USAT doesnt do the work for us, but you gotta have a backup plan.
-Dan

Hey all,

Finally have some time. I'm posting a summary of everyone's posts, mainly for my own benefit in order to compile all the ideas and help me think through mine.

But as a breif comment on USAT offering to help: That is nice, but until someone from USAT actually calls me up directly and tells me their plan of action, I'm going to take their previous actions as being indicative of their real policy. I agree that we should continue on our own.

More comments to come...

Marcus George, President
UCLA Triathlon
http://www.triathlon.ucla.edu

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crmartin9 -
1) USAT is incompetent and would bungle a collegiate program
2) Grow collegiate triathlon in a grassroots way

TriBear (Cal) -
1) Agrees USAT doesn't do much
2) Important for Race Directors to acknowlege collegiate triathlon

A-Train -
1) Hinderance to collegiate triathlon is lack of easily-accessible triathlons during the school year
2) Would be nice for USAT to help collegiate triathlon, but they are incompetent

iron_mike -
1) Get involved in poicy at the club end
2) U of T mountain bike success story

David Clinkard -
1) Would like collegiate support, but funding hard to come by

aus_tri
1) Team develops when committed people are there, but fails when they leave
2) Go grassroots in developing collegiate triathlon. USAT incompetent and a burocratic mightmare.

kac94
1) Develop own collegiate triathlon system

TriBriGuy
1) Zero progress in collegiate triathlon since 1990s.
2) Collegiate tri a great way to develop olympic tri program.

uwmswimr
1) how to help collegiate tri progress
a) develop race calendar
b) races can be school or non-school sponsored
c) USAT recognize rankings system at regional events
2) The collegiate teams need to communicate enough to determine a calendar, and regiational champ races
3) Post school website and creat hypothetical collegite regions

ScottW
1) USAT is not concerned about collegiate triathlon
2) USAT ignores the collegiate commission
3) complain to Scott Schnitzpahn USAT development coordinator

astrotri
1) Network between colleges starting to span the country
2) Matt Miller/Aaron Scheidies (UCLA worked with Aaron in preparation for his recent Ironman and also is working on a Cdifferent Chapter).
3) Need to develop cohesive network of administrators, race directors, collegiate team officers, athletes.
4) Need to pay people to administer and coordinate events, scoring, scheduling to really take off
5) Would a big name RD be willing to help a group of ex-collegiates form an NCAA-esque entity that is powered by their own sponsors (like the hundreds of potential sponsors USAT leaves out in the cold) and could potentially receive sanctioning from major university systems.

ScottW
1) To develop, Collegiate Tri need a dedicated director (outside USAT)

redknightrunner (U of Florida)
1) Organization of a formal point standing system for collegiate triathlon
2) Willing to contribute to this

uwmswimr
1) e-mail list to communicate about starting a system
2) How would the points system work?

nhobbs
1) Know someone who can work on this full time!!

astrotri
1) Let regional triathlon teams put together a race schedule and figure out details later
2) Worry about discounted entry fees and scoring system later.

ScottW
1) Collegiate Commission should have some resources
2) MERCRS a possible model for a scoring system

qcassidy
1) Don't need USAT
2) Promote collegiate races to race directors
3) Best way to set up collegiate races is to add them as a seperate category to already existing AG races.

astrotri
1) Don't need stand-alone events. Utilize existing race infrastructure.

nhobbs
1) Needs to start at a regional level and evolve from there.
2) nhobbs willing to corrdinate between the regions
3) knows someone with time who can work on this

kac94
1) Structure of the collegiae Water Polo Assc. - good model for Collegiate Triathlon

kac94
1) Willing to act as "commissioner"
2) kac94 has BA from Dartmouth, an MBA from NYU, and treasurer of a fairly large non-profit in NYC

oprfcc
1) Difficult to get people racing during the school year in MOntana (and surrounding areas)

uwmswimr
1) USAT gets wind of this thread. Is willing to help.
2) Should continue on our own if nothing happens

Thought about it a bit, and here is what I think (thanks for all the comments):

1) USAT has failed to support the growth of collegiate triathlon, as evidenced by
a) total lack of communication with current collegiate programs
b) total lack of any organizational support for collegiate programs
d) confusing their focus U23 and Jr. Elite programs with collegiate triathlon

2) And seems unlikely to do so in the near future, based on their previous history

3) And there are questions about whether USAT should be involved in developing collegiate triathlon at all

4) There is a desire among the collegiate triathletes of this country for a professionally-structered collegiate triathlon program

5) And the lack of such a program is limiting growth & development of the sport at the collegiate level

6) And the lack of such a program is resulting in much confusion as race directors:
a) arbitrarily saction their own collegiate races
b) self-proclaim them as "championships"
c) set their own scoring criteria

7) The existence of a professionally structered collegiate triathlon program would meet the need for:
a) standardized collegiate conferences
b) standardized collegiate race schedules
c) standardized scoring system
d) standardized championship races
e) standardized qualification criteria to be recognized as a collegiate triathlon program
f) standardized entry fees

8) And the existence of a professionally structered collegiate triathlon program would support:
a) students trying to establish a team at their school
b) students searching for a coach for their program
c) sponsors committed to collegiate athletes
d) a strong cohesive network of administrators, race directors, collegiate team officers, and athletes

9) It is determined that collegiate athletes and those who support collegiate triathlon should band together to form the "Collegiate Triathlon Association" (CTA) - or at least the foundations of the structure for such an organization.


Given all this, here is how I suggest we proceed:

I think collegiate triathlon is still too "new" to try an develop something like a "Collegiate Triathlon Association" from the top - down. Meaning, we need to develop a structure for collegiate competition within an existing conference. Starting from the bottom - up...working to implement a strong system within an existing conference, and then extending that to a national level would probably work best.

As of this writing, the only well-organized collegiate triathlon conference that I know of (and it's not THAT organized) is the West Coast Collegiate Triathlon Conference (WCCTC), which includes:

Cal
UCLA
UCSB
UC Davis
Sac State
UCSD
Cal Poly
Reno
Stanford
Long Beach
SDSU

Over the summer I worked on writing a founding "Constitution" document for the WCCTC. I've tried to get people from my conference to help me polish it into something that would really work, but again, it is hard to get students organized to do these things as we are all busy with school. As it stands now, it includes a proposed scoring system (based on collegiate cycling), rules for designating races that are not hosted by a school from the conference as part of the offical conference calendar, elligibility requirements for students, etc., etc., etc.

Perhaps the best way to begin would be to post that document publicly and allow all interested parties to make suggestions. If that document could be finalized by the end of 2005, then it could be implemented in the WCCTC for 2006 (assuming all the schools vote and approve it). The 2006 collegiate season would make a great trial run. Our conference already has a collegiate schedule, so that is a non-issue.

02/13 Cal
02/26 Stanford
03/11 Cal Poly (WCCTC Championships)
03/25 Sacramento State
04/02 UCSB (South) or Davis (North)
04/09 UCLA (South) or Nevada (North)
04/23 Nationals (??)

Then if there are other existing conferences or as they develop they could adopt whatever we finally come up with (if they agree with it).

What do people think?

EDIT: Forgot to metion that I will probably be setting up an appointment with one of the administrators from my school who was involved in setting up a similar organization for collegiate golf some years ago.

Marcus George, President
UCLA Triathlon
http://www.triathlon.ucla.edu

Great summary Marc. I'd really like to see your constitution when it is ready. It will be interesting to try setting up a season for other regions. The Midwest can't really put on a race until May at the earliest, but I don't see any reason right now why regional seasons would have to match up.

Thanks for work on this.

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"Triathlon" is a misspell according to the Slowtwitch spell checker.