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Re: Barefoot Running: Proceed, but with Caution [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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word.

I don't why it has to be a barefoot vs. standard shoe debate. Why can't it be an investigation into whether or not modern running shoes are doing what they are intended, or are causing different problems/plain not working in some cases.

It's obvious we are in a different time, and we can rationalize all we want about why we need protection for our feet and body from the strain of running in our current environment, our current running activities (human performance vs. survival), changes in human physiology (live longer, larger sizes), and human development (work is more sedentary, start in shoes from a young age). No one can argue that these differences don't exist. The questions are- what is necessary? How much do we need? Can we affect some of these changes with just being smarter about our training, relying on the fact that we won't die if we can't run down a gazelle?

The fact is, you just don't find too many people that aren't getting hurt while running - so are we doing the best we can? Where in the spectrum of barefoot to full blown motion control should we be?

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"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."
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Re: Barefoot Running: Proceed, but with Caution [lsilverman] [ In reply to ]
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Its been very busy here so I haven't had time to respond to any of the feedback to my post. I'll try to hit all the major points here.

A number of people responded about the Nike Free 5.0's merits and demerits as a "barefoot" running shoe. I started a new thread about this topic which you'll find at: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=438911

Martytram posted:
I play alot of outdoor soccer where the shoes provide very little support compared to regular running shoes. I imagine running in my cleats is very close to running in flats.

The Free comes in a lot of flavors; the running version is really designed to help you develop the stabilizing muscles to run forward, not for the lateral movements that soccer requires. There is a "trainer" version of the Free, but for running on grass and making quick turns, my guess is the drills you've been doing since you were a kid, which involve making tight turns while running around or between a set of cones, do a much better job developing the ability to maneuver quickly on a soccer field.

jabroz01 posted:
I've developed a near-constant burning/tearing sensation in my lower right leg - whatever that muscle is between my achilles and my calf.

Soft tissue damage is very common in people who try to transition to a forefoot strike too quickly. I have been wrestling with the damage I did to my legs for several months now. The treatment that's been most effective for me is ART, active release technique. Go to www.activerelease.com to find a practicioner near you.

Markus Mucus posted:
I think what articles like this fail to address are that some people are just born with legs/feet/hips which are misaligned and no amount of strengthening will fix them.

I didn't address this explicitly, but I completely agree. Some people are born with bad feet. Many, many more develop bad feet by mistreating them -- wearing high heels, for example, or shoes that are too tight. But at some point the damage gets so bad that your body cannot recover, and needs some kind of external support. Stabilizing shoes and/or Orthotics are the only options for some people, unfortunately.

These people back in the caveman days would likely have been food for some animal since they weren't able to run longer distances or whatever. I would bet even the caveman had shin splints and running related injuries.

True they might have been selected out, but I think that would be a lot less common than you'd think. This isn't an anthropology forum, though, and all my arguments for or against would be speculation. I don't think cavemen (or plains-men, where we spent more of our evolution) got shin splints anywhere near as often as modern north americans, though.

Jim posted:
Lee, another suggestion to improve muscle strength in the small muscle of the foot and ankle/calf area is to use a wobble board or instability pad to strengthen these areas.

I agree with you that using a wobble board and doing all the exercises that you describe in your post would benefit many, many people, and certainly helps develop many of the muscles that runners need to stabilize themselves. However, I would also say that there's a LOT to be said for activity-specific strength development. That is, to develop the strength to run, you have to run. For example, squats are a great off-season exercise for cyclists, but in season most coaches have their athletes on bikes climbing hills, not in the gym doing squats.

OT in CA posted:
I assume you can reference an anthropological study that backs this claim? Did we evolve to run barefoot? Sure. Did we evolve to run 5-15miles/day? Highly unlikely. Walk/trot/run/amble/carry mixture, yes. Run, no.

Call it "travel" then, instead of "run", the general argument isn't affected all that much. How many Americans "travel" further than the walk from their front door to the car every day?

Mises posted:
Humans almost certainly didn't evolve to be runners or arrive at our present state because our ancestors were good runners. Even the very best doped up runners of the present day are no match for any quadripedal predator in speed or ability to rapidly change direction.

You misunderstood. I completely agree that almost any predator can outrun a human over short distances. However a human can outrun almost any animal we choose to prey on over long distances. We are cheetah food, but we can hunt down a gazelle or zebra. My contention, backed by some anthropology that I've found over time) is that we evolved to run down prey animals over long distances and have enough of a "finishing sprint" left over to throw a spear or some other weapon to make the final kill.

JackAttack made several posts that I need to paraphrase a little (sorry Jack) which basically say that modern running shoe "technologies" that are supposed to help runners actually cause more injuries.

I have to disagree with you Jack, but I think it's a problem of selection not a problem of technology. Yes, a LOT of people are running today and getting injured while doing it. I would contend that without modern running shoe technologies, most of those people would not be running at all. If we all had to run in Chuck Taylors or moccasins, there would be a lot less injuries because a lot fewer people would even start. Further, the cushioning and stability in modern shoes allows people to form a false sense of security, so they push beyond their limits while training. Their injuries are a result of improper training, not the fault of the shoes. While I agree with you about many of your points regarding the effecto fo modern shoe technologies on running form, I believe that for the mass market, those shoes help a lot more than they hurt.

Lee Silverman
JackRabbit Sports
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Re: Barefoot Running: Proceed, but with Caution [lsilverman] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the feedback. Just to clarify, I want to emphasize that I suspect modern running shoes might be doing more harm than good - based on personal experience and a little bit of anecdotal research. Rather than looking at adult recreational runners for evidence, I wonder what the rate of injury is in JR and HS XC and track athletes. Has it decreased over time or increased, or stayed the same? What type of injuries are they experiencing? This seems to me, I could be completely wrong, to be a less dynamic and variable group over the past 10 - 20 years than recreational runners.

I'm just looking for real, hard scientific data on the matter rather than generalizations and rationalizations. Any idea where to find such information?

---------------------------------------------------------

"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."
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Re: Barefoot Running: Proceed, but with Caution [lsilverman] [ In reply to ]
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Just one consideration to add: Our ancestors didn't have to contend with pavement, crushed gravel, chemicals, broken glass, and other hazards we deal with. Prairie grass, forest floor, and stream bed are relatively benign in comparison.
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Re: Barefoot Running: Proceed, but with Caution [jackattack] [ In reply to ]
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There must be some studies, yes, but I haven't looked for them. But how do you control for the improper training regimens that many, many, many HS coaches put their kids through? Yes, there are some great track coaches out there at the high school level (and it sounds like yours has been doing it for a long long time) but with school funding the way it is, I can't imagine that the most qualified people out there are opting to take on the job of HS track coach. Colleges might be a better place to look, but then you have to deal with the selection issue again -- many of the people who make it onto college track teams got there by virtue of not getting injured in High School, or because of a natural aptitude for running so any study of them would probably be biased. Trending the exact same group over many years might work, but that would be a very expensive study. Also, many HS and College athletes don't admit when they're injured, so there's the selection problem again.

Jordan Metzl in New York is the founder of the Sports Medicine institute for Young Athletes. He treats a lot of HS and college athletes as well as adult runners and triathletes. He would have a lot more information on this topic than any of us, but he's a very busy guy. It might be worth checking with him, though.

Lee Silverman
JackRabbit Sports
Park Slope, Brooklyn
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Re: Barefoot Running: Proceed, but with Caution [Markus Mucus] [ In reply to ]
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If you are talking about the New York Times bit, please put "article" in quotes. This is clearly a press release from Nike.

You can search the news wires for nike free and see how many writers in how many towns have suddenly taken an interest in running technique. Seeing how similar their shoes are is pretty cool too. Writers in the Arizona Daily Star and Pittsburgh Post Gazette had this to say
"For years, running shoes have been designed to stabilize, cushion and otherwise pamper the foot." That exact sentence no less, lead off articles about these new shoes. It's almost as if NIKE writes the article and the "writer" changes a few sentences and slaps their names at the top.

I think it was here that I wa smade aware of this phenomenon, how many newspaper articles are simply slightly modified press releases. Now that I see it it makes me feel badly. The "news" is not news the advertisements are now just about the entire paper.

Formula for regional paper "news" coverage = 70% AP newswire, 50% this crap, 10% local news, 5% local sports.
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Re: Barefoot Running: Proceed, but with Caution [lsilverman] [ In reply to ]
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However, I would also say that there's a LOT to be said for activity-specific strength development.

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Correct. Sorry I should clarify. This my off season routine, nothing will improve running like running. I am doing none of this right now. I have a gym membership that runs from Jan-Mar every year and then its back out side.


Jim

**Note above poster works for a retailer selling bikes and related gear*
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Re: Barefoot Running: Proceed, but with Caution [mises] [ In reply to ]
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I was of that opinion also until I read Bernd Heinrich's "Racing the Antelope: What Animals Can Teach Us About Running and Life." At risk of self-promotion, you can find a review I wrote of it here:

http://www.americanscientist.org/template/BookReviewTypeDetail/assetid/14445

On the subject of the effects of highly cushioned running shoes, I recall a study done in about 1991 that looked at overall loads of barefoot versus shod runners. The shoe wearers experienced higher physical stress. I'll have to do some rooting around to find the reference, but I'll give it a try later.

David
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Re: Barefoot Running: Proceed, but with Caution [lsilverman] [ In reply to ]
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about 6 years ago, i was running in the rain and i developed a blister so painful, i had to stop. not wanting to end the run 3 miles from the car, i took off my socks and shoes and ran barefoot on the pavement. it felt fine until the next day (s). not only were my feet sore, my hips and entire leg was too. i know this is to be expected but i don't think i'm going to try that again.
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