", if you practiced Pose for a year, you know there is no "landonyourtoes" thing. It's landing on the forward part of your foot, which IMO is something very different than landing on your toes."

Yes, Kate you are correct. I was being glib. Landing on the ball of your foot -- or more accurately described, your [second? third?] metatarsal joints -- will wreck your feet and legs if done over enough time.

Only Michael Jackson lands on his toes. ;-)

As for other running teaching methods -- there are lots. Yessis is a popular one, although he tends to cater to sprinters and field/court athletes.

I was thinking last night that Pose is the running counterpart to Total Immersion swimming. TI is not a new way to swim -- it is a new way to think about your swimming so that you can learn good technique.

All good running coaches know how to teach running technique. I've read bunches of articles and gone to clinics. The basics are the same all around. The key basic for me has been cadence. They all talk about it, but no one gives you any method to really improve it. Drills didn't help me, because 30 minutes into a long run, my cadence slows and I stay in my old groove. I have great optimism for the path I'm on now. I have a hunch that slavish dedication to getting into a high cadence groove will improve my endurance and quickness. What has been frustrating me is that, despite 40-50 mile weeks for 8 months, I got SLOWER. I can still barely hold 9-minute miles. I ran a 10:30 two-mile time trial on nearly zero training when I was 25. Something has gone missing these past 18 years, and I want it back! Pose (as taught in the video) didn't help me beyond fixing my overstride.

Julian,

Are you kidding? We are the same age, and you were much faster than me 18 years ago. I rarely go over 20 miles a week and am significantly faster (except at the end of an IM :-)) than 9 min/mile. My old saying is to run faster you have to run faster. You just have to break that 9 min mold.

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

alright, I abandon this discussion. I'm obviously not succeeding in communicating my arguments to you. The final decision is left up to 'gentle reader', as they say.

My 'zeal' comes from my perception that POSE can and will injure the inexperienced runner. I'd prefer to prevent those injuries if I can. I can't understand why this is such a problem.

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"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview

I completely understand the frustration with increasing your speed. I tried hellamileage as well, to no avail. What has yielded some improvement for me was the combination of interval runs and hill workouts. The hill workouts have to take place on real hills, in my experience. TRead mills did not yield the same results. I've knocked almost 1 minute per mile off my 10k pave over the last 4 months doing this. Prior to that, I just ran more and it didn't do much for me.

Look at that! An entire post about running without the "P" word! Wonders never cease.



...So many cults, so little time.

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Most people don't recognize opportunity because it wears bib overalls and looks like work.
~Teddy Roosevelt

[reply]Not to be pesky, but can you provide "arguements in favor of" other running techniques that Pose lacks ?[/reply]

There are no other 'running techniques' for distance runners. That's because the most efficient form for any individual is individual, and determined by their particular biomechanics and musculature. Running lots is the way to form an efficient style. Attempting to fit everyone into the POSE mould isn't helpful.

One data point is this study, there are many more:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=499187&dopt=Abstract
which concludes in part 'other factors such as footwear, clothing, and running technique (Costill, 1972) play a relatively minor role'.

Technique applies to swimming because of the hydrodynamics involved - there's really only one efficient way to get through the water. Technique applies to biking inasmuch as positioning is critical - air resistance (studied as a form of fluid dynamics interestingly enough) is the major factor. Technique even applies to sprint runs: forefoot landing is appropriate there, for the reasons already adduced in this thread.

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"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview

you advised the original poster to try POSE, even though he has achilles tendinitis. In this case your advice is in effect to 'everyone' - in what case would you recommend against trying POSE ? If there is none, then you are recommending it for everyone. In any case your only argument in its favour is that it worked for you. Well, running 200 miles a week worked for Dave Bedford - why don't we all try that next ?

trying to keep the still small voice of reason, the wavering flame of skeptical inquiry, alive..

though I liked your mini-novel there..

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"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview

Kate wrote: "For Doug's benefit:

ENDEAVOR:(IN VERB FORM) try, attempt, strive, venture, essay, undertake, tackle, struggle.

Doug, If necessary, please look up fervent on your own. "

Good grief. I'm sorry if I offended you.

OK that's the last thing I'm ever going to say in this thread, promise.

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"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview

what's wrong with saying everyone should try it? that is a lot diffrent then saying everyone has to do it. to try-to give a shot, have a go, kick the tires.

i think you where picked on in school by a bully with a s like pose.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Doug,

Question, have you read the book? if so then you will know that it states throughout the entire book that you cannot just go out and run using the pose method. It emphasies that you must start with the drills, getting balance right, then slowly start building up movement, increasing your strength over time. It concentrates on lots of strength and flexibility exercises that will ensure that you develop the correct muscles for running. Even if someone does not follow the pose method 100%, if they adopt the strength and flexibility exercises then there is less risk of injury and this can only help.

Having read the book it all makes sense to me, if you are stating that swimming can be universally taught then why not running? the only difference is moving through water versus air. It is about learning the most efficient method of moving either through water or air.

Read the book then feel free to make comments about how to further improve it. The last point I will make is take a look at Andrew Johns (sub 30 min 10k in Hamburg World Cup) and Tim Don, they seem to be doing very well having adopted the pose method of running. Proof that it does work.

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Remember, keep in touch with yourself!