I would go with the 50 cm. Being too stretched out will rob you of a lot of power. You can always fine-tune with stem length and aerobar size, to a certain degree. Personally, I like shorter aerobars that I can really torque on (pads are pretty much in the center of my forearms), and a compact cockpit so that I have a ton of core leverage (I look more like your second pic than your first).

I am not smart enough to add anything, but I have a question (we won't discuss your gross hairy legs). To me your back looks flatter in the second picture, and that would seem to mean that your hip angle and torso angle should be smaller, but they are all bigger. Do I just not understand how this works?

Both bikes your shoulders need to go lower.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Seems like it'd be tough to get a good vibe as to how they fit felt while wearing sneakers.

Mjuric, not aiming this at you, just speaking in general. Is it possible that bike fitting to this degree is a joke? I mean...we're talking differences of 1/10th of a degree in some instances? I believe in the concept, no doubt, but when I look at before and after pictures on say...Tom's site, they look the same. Nothing jumps out at me. We're being hypnotized by the industry. I know......don't quit your day job..

"To me your back looks flatter in the second picture,"

Back is definately flatter in the second. Not sure if that's a good thing or bad thing, that's part of my question. The smaller frame definately "compressed" my torso, but not unconfortably so, at least what can be told under the circumstances. However I think I can stretch it out a bit with a few adjustments.

The angles here are "questimations" at best. Simply moving the vertices a small amount will change the dims.

"To me your back looks flatter in the second picture, and that would seem to mean that your hip angle and torso angle should be smaller"

Other than the angle issue above the smaller frame had a slightly greater seat tube angle, 77.5 vs 78 and a larger drop, ofr me from seat to aero pad. I think this eventually would allow for a flatter back at the same hip to torso angle with a flatter back, but again part of my question.

"(we won't discuss your gross hairy legs)"

Just be glad I didn't post pictures of my ass....

~Matt

I agree. This was an excercise in "gross" fit only. Need to get close enough to be on the best frame.

As others have siad it's difficult to really get a good fit until you've done several long rides.

~Matt

There is a significant difference between his position on these two bikes.

To a point I'd agree, however I tried three frames. The 50,52 & 54. The 54 was without doubt to big. I felt like I was really reaching for everything, even at minimum adjustments. Both the 50 & 52 felt comfortable but slightly different.

If I notice the difference, in tennis shoes on a fitmachine, in a couple of minutes, I'm relly going to notice on the road after a couple of hours.

As mentioned in the another post these angles are very arbitrary. It's really hard to hit teh exact same point on the body in a raster drawing. If I'd have benn thining I would have marked myself.

Also as with almost anything, what I see vs what someone who does this type of thing on a daily basis are two different things. What may seem "minor" to me may scream "NO WAY" to a proffesional. It's kinda like when you do a home project how you notice every little flaw but no one else sees anything unless you point it out.

~Matt

1) As somebody else alluded to,these positions are identical within the margin of error. Do you really think you can draw these angles on a photo within 1 degree of accuracy?

2) You can get the exact same position on all three sizes, just a matter of different stems. So you are looking at it from the wrong point of view. Why are you on a size-cycle? If all you are doing is mimicking the three sizes, just use the bikes themselves, use of the fit cycle is completely useless in that case. If you insist on using a fit cycle, get a fit without taking into account the bike, and once the fit is finished, see which frame size accomodates that fit with a "normal" stem length and hence proper weight distribution. I have trouble understanding what this shop is trying to do to you, wow you with their sizing equipment? A fit cycle gives a false sense of security, most good fitters I know don't use them and your situation is a good example of people using them without any benefit.

3) Your elbow pads are about the same height as you saddle. My question, why use aerobars? Take them off, save the pound, as the aerobars won't do anything for you.. Or hopefully, after you do the fit without regard for the frame as suggested above, you will end up with a bar position 10cm lower and it will actually be useful to have aerobars on your bike

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Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

" 1) As somebody else alluded to,these positions are identical within the margin of error. Do you really think you can draw these angles on a photo within 1 degree of accuracy?"

Nope as I already stated merely moving the vertices a bit changes the angle a degree. Also as stated these are "guestimates" at best.

"Why are you on a size-cycle?"

Well it's long story....basically we have no local people that are all that great at fitting. My goal here was to see if I could be fit on "X" frame, not necessarily get the best "fit" and find the right bike. Yes I agree 100% backwards, but maybe a little safer than being fit completely wrong and then buying a bike that doesn't fit.

"Your elbow pads are about the same height as you saddle. My question, why use aerobars?"

Actually that was the big differnece I saw between the 50 and 52. The drop went from around a 1" to a little over 2 with about the same angles. My completely uneducated guess is that I can move the seat up a bit more and drop the front end down on the smaller frame, creating a more areo position, again merely a futile guess.

Not disagreeing with anything you say and that's why I'm here. I'm pretty much in a position that I have to "fit myself", because the expertise to be "fit" locally is not available.

Also stated in another thread, yes I could travel and get fit, but that's not a real good option for every little change or problem, so this route is about the best I could come up with.

~Matt

Absolutely not. If you don't go and have a $300 fitting to get your fit within millimeters, you will be robbed of all sorts of power and end up with horrific medical problems.

I guess what I am saying is that the drop in aerobars you are describing doesn't really have anything to do with the frame size. Why did that drop occur? Was it because you measured the aerobar position on both bikes with 4 spacers under the stem? Why not remove a spacer or two from the 52cm so the bars are the same height as the 50cm bike?

I understand you're in a tough spot if you have nobody around with even a basic understanding of fit, although it begs the question why the shop sells tri bikes. I would guess, based on the Felt geometry, that the 50cm bike would have quite a few spacers under the stem at the position you show. Not a problem (despite what others may say), but I would think that even with a longer headtube as on the 52cm bike you could easily set up that position.

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Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

Matt - Mission Bay is only an hour away in your car, 35 minutes in mine. On top of that you wont get some dogmatic "Felt - Felt - Felt - Felt" mantra at MB as they have Cervelo, Kestrel, QR, Kuota, Litespeed and more right there to check out. Take the drive buddy, if you did not have such a young child I would offer to drive you myself (but seriously, you willing to get into one of my cars?)

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

"Why did that drop occur?"

Well my feable understand is that the seat tube was shorter on the smaller frame. The relationship of the aero bars to the top tube remained the same. But since seat tube was shorter the seat had to be adjusted up, farther from the top tube, to retain the same distance from the bottom brkt. But that's a WAG at best.

"I understand you're in a tough spot if you have nobody around with even a basic understanding of fit, although it begs the question why the shop sells tri bikes"

Well to answer that question I'd have to say because there's a market.

I'm not coming down on the LBS's as for the most part they are great people to work with and that's why I want to deal with them. Unfortunetly they simply don't have the expertise although I'd say they do have a "basic" understanding...maybe very basic.

Thanks for the info.

~Matt

I'll have to think about that.

Like I said before I plan on buying at the LBS simply for "loyalist" reasons if for no other reason. However going in and getting fitted, even if I have to pay for it, may be a good option.

As far as brands. Between the locals I can get pretty much most of the main brands. Kestrel and Kuota the exceptions on your list.

The reason I'm looking at the Felt's is not that it's "my only choice" but I think it's a decent bike for the cash. Again there are sooooo many options and some have this some have that but at the price range I'm looking at they are mostly the same.

As far as the car ride...as much sleep as I'm getting lately, likely I'd fall asleep.

~Matt

[reply]"Why did that drop occur?"

Well my feable understand is that the seat tube was shorter on the smaller frame. The relationship of the aero bars to the top tube remained the same. But since seat tube was shorter the seat had to be adjusted up, farther from the top tube, to retain the same distance from the bottom brkt. But that's a WAG at best.
[/reply]

Exactly, it is different just because the bikes happened to be set up that way. At the very least, get the same photos but with you sitting on the actual bikes, that way we can say something useful.

As for buying from a bike shop with no knowledge of tri bikes out of loyalty, I don't understand that. You basically are saying that he sells triathlon bikes because there is a market for it, because he can make money with it, yet he doesn't bother to train himself so that he can actually help his customers. I'm not sure why that deserves loyalty. A shop an hour or two away who can fit me and actually make me comfortable and fast on my tri bike, that would get my loyalty.

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Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

"You basically are saying that he sells triathlon bikes because there is a market for it, because he can make money with it, yet he doesn't bother to train himself so that he can actually help his customers."

Maybe I emphasized that a bit much. Certainly there is a market and if there wasn't they wouldn't be selling bikes.

This particular bike shop is definately on the "beginning end" of the learning curve. The fact that thay are making money off of selling tri bikes is not what get's my loyalty. This shop has stepped forward and has helped out alot with the local tri club, carries things in stock that we(Triathletes) ask for, bend over backwards to do what they can to help, both at races and away.

I guess I look at it as you have to start somewhere. 3-4 years ago I would have had to go out of town or internet to even look at a tri bike or any tri related gear. Now I can go 10 minutes and get alot of "odds and ins" tri gear that I may have forgotten to get a day or so prior to race day.

Certainly I would not give much stock to a company that is "simply there to sell". What I'm hoping is that this or another shop will eventually step up to the plate and develop into a knowledgeable tri shop. It's kinda like an investment for me. Certainly this won't happen if they don't sell bikes.

Maybe I'm a bit more fiercely "Local" oriented simply because I'm in business as well. I'm painfully aware of the issues that face smaller companies when facing that "learning" curve and initial investments in time and training.

"At the very least, get the same photos but with you sitting on the actual bikes,"

Again a problem. Small local shop. Simply doesn't have every size in stock. They did have a 54cm, which is definately too big.

~Matt

[reply]Again a problem. Small local shop. Simply doesn't have every size in stock. They did have a 54cm, which is definately too big.

~Matt[/reply]

Well, then at the very least tell me with the Fit cycle set up for the 52cm frame, what size stem is mimmicked with this set-up and how many cm's of virtual spacers are under that stem?

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Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

Stem size for both was 100MM and set at the 73 degree angle (Straight out like the bars that come with the S22). Virtual spacers, well...got me there. Not sure. We did measure the one S22 they had in stock and set it with the same amount on both bike setups. I'll have to find out what that was though.

~Matt

OK, now I am completely confused. So I can only stick to my original conviction, go to a shop that can help you. Your loyalty is admirable, and I see your point about supporting him so he can grow into a good shop, but the fact of the matter is, this shop cannot give you what you need. He cannot fit you, he will not order in the 50 and the 52cm, so he simply cannot help you. The burden should not be on the consumer to seek out advice on an internet forum to make up for the dealer's shortcomings.

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Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

"The burden should not be on the consumer to seek out advice on an internet forum to make up for the dealer's shortcomings."

You are probabaly correct and I think to feel comfortable about my purchase I will likely seek out someone for a fitting.

I appreciate your time and thank you for your input.

~Matt

"and hence proper weight distribution"

As always...Gerard breaks this one down to its root...I can fit you in the same position, relative to the cranks on bikes 1 or 2 sized up or down from your "optimal" size in any given frame. The trouble is that when I've finagled you onto that 56cm frame, your weight distribution relative to the rest of the bike is going to be whacked...probably too far rearward...on the other hand, I could stick you on a 48 and make it fit, with a 140 stem and the saddle shoved back...you'll end up with too much weight too far forward and the bike will handle like crap...