Tom Demerly asked: "Anybody get the analogy? "



i certainly do!

e-RICHIE

mandaric couldn't have given you titanium. neither could gerard, or any number of other bike company owners. that's a big enough reason to choose serotta.

also, i must say this about paul. i've had a lot of people come away from a bike fit unhappy with the experience. that's not the sort of thing that happens with paul. that's why i recommend him.

but what i HAVE seen are really funky custom bikes built for triathletes because the bike fitter / seller just did not understand bike fit. all sorts of really weird configurations to solve a problem that would've been solved had the fitter used a good tri saddle. this sort of thing wouldn't happen if the bike company understood the concepts of tri bike fit and put up a fight when asked to build something that just doesn't make sense.

however, i doubt that such a scenario occurs with paul in charge of the process.

remember, the thread to which i originally posted was, "why not more serottas & sevens?" having paul do your fit, and spec your custom serotta, adds to one's comfort level when dropping six or seven large. but what about all the other shops ordering up custom serottas for their triathlon customers? who's there to guard against the titanium abortion that might result?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

As usual on this forum both this thread and the Serotta Responds thread are coming back to fit, and the importance of working with a fitter that understands tri. I think it's safe to say that there are numerous fitters "certified" by a number of organizations including Serotta and FIST who don't "get" triathlon. Serotta does spend a good bit of time, especially in the Advanced school, on tri fit. Chris Kautz teaches these units. FIST spends a whole 2-3 days on it specifically. But just like any certification, it only means you passed a test with a minimum score, not that the fitter really "gets it."

I think what it comes down to is unless a guy like Paul or Chris fit you on your Serotta, you probably won't get what Dan feels is a true "Tri" bike that handles properly. In fact it seems if it doesn't have the aero qualities of other bikes marketed to triathletes, that even then it might not be a true "tri" bike according to Dan (but then what is a Saber or a Tachyon?). That's where buying stock saves a lot of people time and trouble because they can be sure it's designed right if it comes from a true "tri" company and as a bonus, 95% of the population can achieve a good fit on a stock tri bike and not suffer a custom "abortion" as Dan put it at the hands of a "certified" fitter.

Say no to partial-fit abortions...

 

As an owner of a specialty road and triathlon shop that carries Serotta and Cervelo (among others), I felt I needed to at least throw my two cents in on this one. In many places, this may sound like I am defending Serotta, but the reality is that we carry each of the brands we carry because we believe in what they offer and feel they offer a valuable option to the athlete. Custom bikes are not discussed enough in the tri world and they deserve more time and understanding so that all riders can make educated decisions for their individual needs.

For reference, I will often use Cervelo as most people that read this forum have a familiarity of what Cervelo offers and promotes.

Geometry and Custom Frame Design: I probably have missed some items in earlier posts and I hope I'm not being redundant. I think one thing that might be missing from all this is that Serotta dealers (just like all Cervelo dealers) are not all alike. Not all Serotta dealers (again, just like not all Cervelo dealers) are focused on understanding triathlon and not all Serotta dealers chose to use the "Serotta System" to the same degree or to the same ends. For example, while some Serotta dealers submit dimensions off their Size Cycle and have Serotta design the custom frame, there are others who submit Serotta a proposed geometry sheet and then work to polish out the details with Serotta. Why do some dealers do it this and not just leave it up to the builder? Because we (not the builder) fit the rider and we know them better than the builder does. It allows us to address any individual needs that might otherwise not be addressed. If a builder sees anything potentially flawed in a design, they'll let us know and we can address it together. Otherwise, they build what we request. If you ask Kautz and Levine, they most likely use a similar system for design. My point is that optimal frame geometry and angles are dependent upon the rider's position and their body type and riding style - it is as individual as the rider itself. This is what Serotta (and most other custom builders) try to represent to the market.

Does this mean that Serotta has the same understanding of triathlon cycling as a company like Cervelo? No, it doesn't mean that. It does mean that Serotta and Cervelo take different approaches and are focused on different aspects of the market and different customers. They do different things well. Cervelo's experience in the triathlon market has helped them establish a consistent geometry that works well for many riders and has earned them a solid following. However, Cervelo's geometry tends to work best for different riders than the most of the people who buy a Serotta or other custom frame. This is a good thing as it means that everyone has options.

I believe that I've read that Slowman often has custom geometry frames built for him, not necessarily because he can't fit on a stock frame well, but because he often prefers the handling of a bike with some custom geometry angles. Angles which I'm sure he has thought about, experimented with, and tested until he has found what is optimal. Even if a stock bike fits them well, we have some riders that choose to get a custom bike for this reason as well. They came to us because they know that there are not a large number of experienced custom tri bike designers that work with custom builders available.

Stock or custom, the important thing is that the bike is fit to the body and not the other way around. Realize that when you order a custom bike the design of the frame geometry is as important as the quality of the tubing and the manufacturer. This groundwork spent with the design and addressing individual needs determines how the bike handles as much or more than anything else.

Stock bike design and Pro Riders: It had been mentioned that Cervelo fit a large number of discriminating CSC riders on stock frames and they have done well on them and none required custom geometry. While professional athletes can lend R&D insight into how to design a consistent product, I'm not sure that it is best for the consumer (or the bike industry) to use professional athletes as the baseline for consumer bike designs. The reasoning is simple, not many consumers (even very athletic ones) have the time, lifestyle, focus or athletic ability as a professional athlete. How many of us make a living taking care of our bodies, ride 15,000+ miles a year, can ride a 40k TT at 30 mph, and have a staff of medical professionals and coaches making sure that we are healthy and well rested? How many of us ride and live like Armstrong, Hamilton, Bowden, Fuhr, Reid and Stadler? I only bring this up because there are a number of athletes that will fit on stock bikes and ride efficiently and comfortably on them, but there are also a number of people that stock geometry does not fit so well and who benefit from a custom bike.

Price: Price is relative to the rider, their long-term goals and a number of other variables. The people that tend to order Serotta's from us are often looking for a frame that they can keep virtually forever. This is often quite different from the rider who buys a stock bike who plans on rotating their equipment more often. Both are fine approaches as long as the bike works for you as an individual. The $3500 that is kept for three years amortizes out to the same $1166.66 a year as the $7000 custom kept for six.

It is important to keep in mind that bikes are still a great value compared to many other activities. How many people on this forum are driving cars worth over $30k? over $50k? How many people on this forum spend as much time training a week as they do in their car? Many activities are price restrictive and do not allow consumers to own equipment that is as good or better than the pros, certainly not cars, boats, horses, or motorcycles. And, as posted earlier, while brands like Serotta don't offer sub $2000 bikes, they do make frames that start around $1400, which is a little more than a P2K frameset and less than a P3 frameset. If you were to look a Cervelo's line and judge them just on the price of the R2.5 Bayonne at $8500 you'd think they were expensive too.

What seems far more price restrictive is $500 entry fees and a couple grand worth of required travel and lodging for an event that is over in a day.

Why not more Serottas and Sevens in tri? Both Serotta and Seven are dealer dependent companies who built their business in the road world. Both companies built their names in the road world and started out in road dealers. As the tri market grows, my guess is that more of these road dealers will make the jump. One of the most challenging tasks for any brand is finding the right dealers for your product and finding dealers that are willing and able to execute what your brand stands for. Serotta will not sell well in a product dependent store that is always looking for the "next big thing". They are also demanding and selective about their dealers (requiring their dealers to go through a couple thousand dollars worth of training seminars, buy demo bikes, a size cycle and other things that cost real money). This automatically erases those dealers who who simply are not willing to do these things. Furthermore, many bike and triathlon shops seem to want little to do with custom bikes as properly sold/designed custom bikes are time intensive to fit, present, design and deliver. It is simply much easier for most high volume dealers to deliver what people ask for or something that is pre-packaged and quick.

Geometry: Serotta has never professed to me any type of geometry or riding position that they feels works best for all riders. They have stated that each rider needs a position that addresses their individual needs, capabilities and situation and this is why they build the bike to match the body. Anyone who has been through a Serotta course will tell you that their methodology does not prescribe a certain position or formula but instead tries to take as many of the influencing variables as possible into account when developing the rider's position. As has been stated, the best custom brands don't subscribe to a myopic view and will build anything (steep, shallow, long, short, low, tall...) that is requested.

All stock bikes are built around a certain positioning philosophy. Some brands offer a few models that address different types of rider needs and positions within their line.

The Future of Custom in Tri: Just by the fact that this topic is on the forum and has attracted so much interest, shows that companies like Seven and Serotta are executing a marketing plan of sorts (through their dealers). Slowman is right when he says that conversations like this are a valid advertising approach.

While it is very unlikely that custom bikes will ever exceed stock bike sales, as custom bike awareness grows, custom bikes will become a more understood and considered option for many riders who have never found exactly what they were looking for off the rack. In the end, this will be good for all builders (stock or custom) as more riders will be happier with cycling and this is what expands the horizons of the sport.



Ian

Fit Werx

Very well put Ian. That is why I prefer to sell Serotta, because we together (Fitter/Serotta) can build the perfect bike.



Grant,

"As the tri market grows, my guess is that more of these road dealers will make the jump."

exactly 10 konas ago serotta had 23 bikes in a race of 1400+ starters, compared to 13 this year in a race of 1700+ starters. i point this out only to suggest that serotta is going in the opposite direction of that which you describe. why not more serottas? this is the original question, to which i responded.

certainly, having a lot of bikes in kona isn't a requirement for success. at the same time, what has happened over the last decade? OCLVs and giants on the road geometry side, and on the tri side cervelo and litespeed, and the death of a thousand cuts by elite, yaqui, felt, guru, and any number of tri specific bike companies.

serotta has a place in the market, as does seven. but i doubt you'll find your prediction coming true. triathlon didn't just get big. and neither did serotta. the trends are already in place.

as many have pointed out, serotta cut its teeth during an era when a lot of top american cyclists were adding to the collective think tank knowledge at serotta. that process honed serotta's views on raw materials, construction and geometry. or did it? does serotta contend that working with america's top athletes in the 80s didn't accrue knowledge pointing toward an improved product? i doubt serotta would say this experience did not pay dividends in its product offerings.

that exercise was never replicated with regard to triathlon. there was no working with a lot of top level triathletes. serotta's posture seems to me to indicate that it thinks its road bike building expertise leverages over to triathlon. there's not enough difference in the way road bikes and tri bikes operate to have to think overmuch about the nuances. this appears to me their approach, from what little they've written.

i don't believe this view is correct. hence, the disagreement. but they build perfectly lovely road bikes. much nicer than anything i ever built.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think you are reading more into what I'm saying than you need to or it deserves. Despite your Kona numbers, I'm just saying Serotta is generating more tri sales than they were 5 years ago, more than they were 2 years ago and that they are building more tri specific bikes now than they were 10 years ago. Reasons why they aren't going in the opposite direction:

1) There are probably proportionately fewer Serotta's at road races now than 10 years ago too. However, Serotta is building more frames than they were 10 years ago. You don't have to be at Kona to enjoy triathlon or deserve a nice bike. While some of our Serotta buyers have Kona dreams, many are just looking for a more comfortable way to race locally/regionally and to gain a little speed in the process.

2) As USAT membership shows, 10 years ago there were far fewer bike options for triathletes and fewer triathletes in general. It is a much bigger pond with far more options now. There are also more triathlon specific dealers now, many of whom are pretty rigid in their thinking that aero tubing (or pseudo aero tubing) makes or breaks a tri bike.

3) Serotta just started tri specific fit training with dealers three years ago. With time, their fitting program, just like F.I.S.T., will pay off for those dealers that attend. I can promise you more road bike dealers are hearing the word "triathlon" more than ever. Some will listen and some will be Serotta dealers.

4) You'd have to ask Serotta on the other parts of their marketing. This year there was a couple pages dedicated to triathlon in the catalog and under geometry possibilities for their models this year "triathlon" is right there. Granted, they are taking baby steps, but steps all the same. I saw a Serotta tent at IMLP and I wouldn't be surprised to see them at a few other events in select areas in '05.

5) "serotta's posture seems to me to indicate that it thinks its road bike building expertise leverages over to triathlon. there's not enough difference in the way road bikes and tri bikes operate to have to think overmuch about the nuances." I don't think they are saying that at all. Read the other posts on design, steering, etc. to see why I disagree.

6) Every year they get another dealer or two who starts to sell them as a tri bike as well as a road bike and that creates growth for them.

I'm on the road doing fits this weekend, so I won't be in a position to say much more on this.

Ian

Fit Werx