Paul Krugman in the New York Times has written perhaps the best critique of this movie and the uproar surrounding it.



" There has been much tut-tutting by pundits who complain that the movie, though it has yet to be caught in any major factual errors, uses association and innuendo to create false impressions. Many of these same pundits consider it bad form to make a big fuss about the Bush administration's use of association and innuendo to link the Iraq war to 9/11. Why hold a self-proclaimed polemicist to a higher standard than you hold the president of the United States?

And for all its flaws, "Fahrenheit 9/11" performs an essential service. It would be a better movie if it didn't promote a few unproven conspiracy theories, but those theories aren't the reason why millions of people who aren't die-hard Bush-haters are flocking to see it. These people see the film to learn true stories they should have heard elsewhere, but didn't. Mr. Moore may not be considered respectable, but his film is a hit because the respectable media haven't been doing their job"

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Have to admit....I don't saddle up with the NYT due to clear direction of text it prints.

Now to the resst of it. In Mr. Moore's own words:

"I'm a millionaire, I'm a multi-millionaire," he proclaimed. "I'm filthy rich. You know why I'm a multi-millionaire? 'Cause multi-millions like what I do. That's pretty good, isn't it? There's millions that believe in what I do. Pretty cool, huh?"

direct quote-source:arcateye.com

Sounds kinda like what I was saying does it not? The small town newspaper further reports regarding Mr. Moore's thoughts on a business issue in that town which I also take as a general comment toward any business enterprise:

Moore seemed to embrace capitalistic Darwinism. "If the small businesses suck they'll be driven out of business," he said. "If they got a good restaurant, people will go there and eat. You know in my town the small businesses that everyone wanted to protect? They were the people that supported all the right-wing groups. They were the Republicans in the town, they were in the Kiwanas, the Chamber of Commerce - people that kept the town all white. The small hardware salesman, the small clothing store salespersons, Jesse the Barber who signed his name three different times on three different petitions to recall me from the school board. Fuck all these small businesses - fuck 'em all! Bring in the chains. The small businesspeople are the rednecks that run the town and suppress the people. Fuck 'em all. That's how I feel."

I appreciate your willingness to stand up for the man Matt....but I guess I have the mundane tendency to look at people based on what they say and do, as much as what others say about them. Show me everyone else's viewpoint about him all day long and it just does not hold a candle to the man himself.

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Train hard...race well.
www.jimmishler.com
"Jim, I happen to agree with you" DougStern

He certinaly seems to have gotten under your skin Jim...and thats exactly what his goal is. He picks a target, and goes after it relentlessly, paring nothing or nobody in his path. His methods are crude, his biasses are obvious, he is relentless.

He either entertains the hell out of you, or he irritates the hell out of you depending on what side of the issue you are on. Right now he makes me chuckle because I love to see conservatives running around all hot under the collar trying to apply standards to Michael Moore that they don't expect from their own president.

The Whitehouse has lied to this country for almost 3 years regarding who was responsible for the attacks of 9/11...the have played so fast and free with the truth that 50% of Americans still believe that Saddam was directly or indirectly responsible for those attacks. Despite mounds of evidence and a commission report to the contrary Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al are still linking saddam to 9/11 every chance they get...you'd think Osama Bin Laden didn't exist! That sort of behavior and peddling of conspiracy theories seems to be OK with Bush supporters even if it drags us into war...but heaven forbid Michael Moore come up with a few harmless conspiracy theories of his own!!! OH NO WE CAN'T ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN!!!!! NOT IF IT MAKES OUR GUY LOOK BAD!!!

Moore's flirtation with the half truth hasn't done anything other than fluster a few feathers. Bush's on the other hand has killed 850 American servicemen and women and counting...not to mention the thousands of Iraqis.

If folks are so concerned about the truth and if bending it makes you so angry you need to write to your President and tell him to quit lying to the American people about why we are in Iraq.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

You are why he is "filthy rich". He loves you. You love him. A happy couple! And some states will marry you!

"That sounds like a personal attack Elwood...you need a time out...this is just politics, chill out"
- - So that would be a further "NO" in regards to backing up the point you tried to make.

In another post below, you refer to Moore as an entertainer, or as being entertaining. That's the entire problem with his kind. He, Streisand, Penn, Baldwin, Danson, Goldberg (Whoopi)... they all want to run the government, but without actually running for office. They want to change the power structure, but aren't able to do it honestly, so they underwrite "entertainment" that leaves people with mistaken impressions.

Hitler had a filmmaker like Moore on his payroll. The insidiousness of couching political brainwashing as entertainment is deep and sick.

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

Don't want to disappoint you but Moore has not become an epidermal irritation. I simply accept him and view him for who he is. Nothing less, but also nothing more. We all pick our paths. I'm not upset with Moore. Far from it. My first post clarifies my own view. The second one allows Mr. Moore to say it for himself. There is nothing you or I can add that means nearly as much.

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Train hard...race well.
www.jimmishler.com
"Jim, I happen to agree with you" DougStern

1st rule of internet debate, the first person to introduce the word "Hitler" or "Nazi" loses.



Sorry Elwood.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

"The Whitehouse has lied to this country for almost 3 years regarding who was responsible for the attacks of 9/11..."
- - They haven't, so once again I challenge you to support your contention.

"the have played so fast and free with the truth that 50% of Americans still believe that Saddam was directly or indirectly responsible for those attacks."
- - The links between Sadaam and al Qaeda may not pass the test of "beyond a reasonable doubt" as needed for a court of law in this country, but the connections are there, they are proven, they are demonstrated and they are truth.

"Despite mounds of evidence and a commission report to the contrary Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al are still linking saddam to 9/11 every chance they get..."
- - Where on earth did you get THAT? Sadaam was linked to terrorism, with the possibility that he could have been connected to 9/11, and was IN FACT, connected to one or more of the terrorists responsible for that attack. However, the administration went after Sadaam on different grounds, a fact of which you are apparently unaware. That's what happens to you if you only listen to one side of the story.

"you'd think Osama Bin Laden didn't exist! That sort of behavior and peddling of conspiracy theories seems to be OK with Bush supporters even if it drags us into war..."
- - You don't seem to have a problem with Moore trying to drag us OUT of the GWOT based on out and out lies...

"but heaven forbid Michael Moore come up with a few harmless conspiracy theories of his own!!!"
- - Outright propaganda and lies are much more than a "harmless" conspiracy theory.


"Moore's flirtation with the half truth hasn't done anything other than fluster a few feathers."
I submit that at least one American (you) has bought the bullshit hook, line and sinker, and you're now ready to put the UN (John Kerry) in the White House because of the lies you're choosing to believe.

"Bush's on the other hand has killed 850 American servicemen and women and counting...not to mention the thousands of Iraqis."
- - In war people die. But if you're worrying about dead Iraqis, you should at least acknowledge that FAR fewer of them are dying - or being tortured, raped and maimed - than was the case before the war.

"If folks are so concerned about the truth and if bending it makes you so angry you need to write to your President and tell him to quit lying to the American people about why we are in Iraq."
- - Instead, I'll just write to YOU and ask you to stop lying about what the administration has said.

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

"1st rule of internet debate, the first person to introduce the word "Hitler" or "Nazi" loses."
- - Loses what?

Just one more painful point that you can't answer...

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

Its called Godwin's Law Elwood.

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

There is a tradition in many Usernet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made in a thread the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. Many people understand Godwin's Law to mean this, although (as is clear from the statement of the law above) this is not the original formulation.

Nevertheless, there is also a widely-recognized codicil that any intentional invocation of Godwin's Law for its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.

This debate is officially over and you lost....prove the codicil wrong PLEASE!!!!

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
- - And in this case, the comparison is apt. Leni and Michael putting together bullshit to further a deceitful cause. Again, you can't answer.

"There is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made in a thread the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress."
- - There is a far older tradition that whoever walks away forfeits. So far you haven't even tried to defend any of the bull you posted. Your trailing on points by all three judges.

"This debate is officially over and you lost."
- - Interesting psuedo-logic. "I can't compete, so I'll declare myself the winner." I know a lot of losers who would love to use it.

Again, not even an attempt by you to substantiate your wild and wooly claims.

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

MattinSF,
Do yourself a favour - don't feed the fuckwit

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http://pavlov.psyc.queensu.ca/~psyc382/rockgold.html
(Norman Rockwell's "Do Unto Others")

  Tibbs,

I could not resist actually reading that flaky article and laughing. If this quote from the reading does not make you laugh, then what does?
"Leaving aside the fact that the bin Laden family, which runs one of Saudi Arabia’s biggest construction firms, has never been linked to terrorism" - what the Hell? The Bin Laden family has never been linked to terrorism. I guess having a son named Osama means nothing. Or the funding that he acquired.

Tibbs - nice way to start a flame war on slowtwitch due to an article by an idiot.

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Jimmy S.