Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 14:00

Post #126 of 211 (468 views)

BCtriguy1 wrote:

spockman wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

Interesting article. Almost makes mincemeat of people with black and white positions on all of this. But maybe Mr Blakeman from Nassau Co. NY will swoop in and save the day.

Federal appeals court blocks West Virginia from enforcing anti-trans sports ban against 13-year-old girl
https://www.cnn.com/...ports-ban/index.html

This person is a small group which unfortunately is getting bigger. Given that desisting is the commonest trajectory extending puberty blocking drugs if fraught with problems. The tendency in Canada at present is to not question any adolescent who thinks they are not cis gender and get on with puberty blocking drugs and or hormones. In many cases one is affirming thoughts that likely will go away and not giving the child the chance to identify with their biological sex. If one even questions this approach one is labelled "trans-phobic".

Sensible countries like Finland and Sweden are either banning puberty blocks or restricting to exceptional cases

It is interesting to see Nordic countries moving away from hormone and surgical intervention and towards a therapy based approach in minors.

They didn't move away from surgical intervention on minors as it was already not being done. Contrary to what the right-wing politicians may promote surgical intervention on minors is extremely rare.

Edit: Earlier today Sweden passed a law making it easier for trans minors to surgically transaction, lowering the age from 18 to 16.
Sweden passes law lowering age to change legal gender from 18 to 16 (bbc.com)

None of these countries have put in place the extreme restrictions that some U.S. state have.

Last edited by: Nutella: Apr 18, 24 14:10

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [Nutella] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 14:24

Post #127 of 211 (452 views)

Nutella wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

spockman wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

Interesting article. Almost makes mincemeat of people with black and white positions on all of this. But maybe Mr Blakeman from Nassau Co. NY will swoop in and save the day.

Federal appeals court blocks West Virginia from enforcing anti-trans sports ban against 13-year-old girl
https://www.cnn.com/...ports-ban/index.html

This person is a small group which unfortunately is getting bigger. Given that desisting is the commonest trajectory extending puberty blocking drugs if fraught with problems. The tendency in Canada at present is to not question any adolescent who thinks they are not cis gender and get on with puberty blocking drugs and or hormones. In many cases one is affirming thoughts that likely will go away and not giving the child the chance to identify with their biological sex. If one even questions this approach one is labelled "trans-phobic".

Sensible countries like Finland and Sweden are either banning puberty blocks or restricting to exceptional cases

It is interesting to see Nordic countries moving away from hormone and surgical intervention and towards a therapy based approach in minors.

They didn't move away from surgical intervention on minors as it was already not being done. Contrary to what the right-wing politicians may promote surgical intervention on minors is extremely rare.

Edit: Earlier today Sweden passed a law making it easier for trans minors to surgically transaction, lowering the age from 18 to 16.
Sweden passes law lowering age to change legal gender from 18 to 16 (bbc.com)

None of these countries have put in place the extreme restrictions that some U.S. state have.

https://www.nypost.com/...oach-trans-kids/amp/

You're talking about changing legal gender. That's paperwork. Finland too has relaxed certain rules like those around sterilization requirements before transitioning. That's great, but we are talking about different things.

Long Chile was a silly place.

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 15:01

Post #128 of 211 (439 views)

BCtriguy1 wrote:

Nutella wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

spockman wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

Interesting article. Almost makes mincemeat of people with black and white positions on all of this. But maybe Mr Blakeman from Nassau Co. NY will swoop in and save the day.

Federal appeals court blocks West Virginia from enforcing anti-trans sports ban against 13-year-old girl
https://www.cnn.com/...ports-ban/index.html

This person is a small group which unfortunately is getting bigger. Given that desisting is the commonest trajectory extending puberty blocking drugs if fraught with problems. The tendency in Canada at present is to not question any adolescent who thinks they are not cis gender and get on with puberty blocking drugs and or hormones. In many cases one is affirming thoughts that likely will go away and not giving the child the chance to identify with their biological sex. If one even questions this approach one is labelled "trans-phobic".

Sensible countries like Finland and Sweden are either banning puberty blocks or restricting to exceptional cases

It is interesting to see Nordic countries moving away from hormone and surgical intervention and towards a therapy based approach in minors.

They didn't move away from surgical intervention on minors as it was already not being done. Contrary to what the right-wing politicians may promote surgical intervention on minors is extremely rare.

Edit: Earlier today Sweden passed a law making it easier for trans minors to surgically transaction, lowering the age from 18 to 16.
Sweden passes law lowering age to change legal gender from 18 to 16 (bbc.com)

None of these countries have put in place the extreme restrictions that some U.S. state have.

https://www.nypost.com/...oach-trans-kids/amp/

You're talking about changing legal gender. That's paperwork. Finland too has relaxed certain rules like those around sterilization requirements before transitioning. That's great, but we are talking about different things.

No, I am not. The law passed yesterday in Sweden does more than just lower the age to change legal gender but it also lowers the age that a person can surgically transition from 18 to 16. It adds oversite as well, which I am all for.

As for your NY Post link. The "study" it refers to has been completely debunked by many experts like Dr. Meredithe McNamara from the Yale University School of Medicine and epidemiologist Gideon Meyerowitz-Katz, who say the "study" is nonsense. If you are interested in a point by point dismantling of it

Fact Checked: New Problematic "Finnish Study" Actually Shows Trans Care Saves Lives (erininthemorning.com)

Given the history of the author I am not surprised
Dynamics within the anti-LGBTQ+ pseudoscience network | Southern Poverty Law Center (splcenter.org)
(5) Abusive Practices And Conversion Therapy Ties: The Right Latches Onto Finnish Doctor Kaltiala (erininthemorning.com)

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 15:03

Post #129 of 211 (435 views)

BCtriguy1 wrote:

BarryP wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

Barks&Purrs wrote:

I know of exactly ZERO liberals who think there should be no legal protection for cis girls and women in sports.

Really? This surprises me. There seems to be a pretty big push amongst the left to fully accept trans women as women in all aspects. To do so means acceptance in the change rooms, in competition, on the podiums etc.

I feel like if it weren't liberals pushing this so hard it wouldn't even be a discussion.

Quote:

I’m a very liberal liberal and I wholeheartedly and unreservedly agree that some protection of girls and women is required by our laws as well as general notions of fairness and good sportsmanship.

Just curious to dig a bit deeper here. As a very liberal liberal, and a woman, what are your personal views on what protections should be afforded to women to protect fairness and good sportsmanship? If you could wave a magic wand and create a set of rules or standards to include trans women yet protect cis women in sports, where would that line be?

Lia Thomas "won" a national championship in women's swimming. Now while I can't say for certain that it was liberals who allowed this to happen, can't we deduce that through a process of elimination knowing full well it certainly wasn't conservatives?

Exactly. If it's not very liberal liberals pushing this... Who is?

The Leftist ideologues.

Liberal <> Leftist

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [windywave] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 15:08

Post #130 of 211 (429 views)

windywave wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

BarryP wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

Barks&Purrs wrote:

I know of exactly ZERO liberals who think there should be no legal protection for cis girls and women in sports.

Really? This surprises me. There seems to be a pretty big push amongst the left to fully accept trans women as women in all aspects. To do so means acceptance in the change rooms, in competition, on the podiums etc.

I feel like if it weren't liberals pushing this so hard it wouldn't even be a discussion.

Quote:

I’m a very liberal liberal and I wholeheartedly and unreservedly agree that some protection of girls and women is required by our laws as well as general notions of fairness and good sportsmanship.

Just curious to dig a bit deeper here. As a very liberal liberal, and a woman, what are your personal views on what protections should be afforded to women to protect fairness and good sportsmanship? If you could wave a magic wand and create a set of rules or standards to include trans women yet protect cis women in sports, where would that line be?

Lia Thomas "won" a national championship in women's swimming. Now while I can't say for certain that it was liberals who allowed this to happen, can't we deduce that through a process of elimination knowing full well it certainly wasn't conservatives?

Exactly. If it's not very liberal liberals pushing this... Who is?

The Leftist ideologues.

Liberal <> Leftist

Sure but at some point that line gets real blurry.

Long Chile was a silly place.

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 15:16

Post #131 of 211 (421 views)

BCtriguy1 wrote:

windywave wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

BarryP wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

Barks&Purrs wrote:

I know of exactly ZERO liberals who think there should be no legal protection for cis girls and women in sports.

Really? This surprises me. There seems to be a pretty big push amongst the left to fully accept trans women as women in all aspects. To do so means acceptance in the change rooms, in competition, on the podiums etc.

I feel like if it weren't liberals pushing this so hard it wouldn't even be a discussion.

Quote:

I’m a very liberal liberal and I wholeheartedly and unreservedly agree that some protection of girls and women is required by our laws as well as general notions of fairness and good sportsmanship.

Just curious to dig a bit deeper here. As a very liberal liberal, and a woman, what are your personal views on what protections should be afforded to women to protect fairness and good sportsmanship? If you could wave a magic wand and create a set of rules or standards to include trans women yet protect cis women in sports, where would that line be?

Lia Thomas "won" a national championship in women's swimming. Now while I can't say for certain that it was liberals who allowed this to happen, can't we deduce that through a process of elimination knowing full well it certainly wasn't conservatives?

Exactly. If it's not very liberal liberals pushing this... Who is?

The Leftist ideologues.

Liberal <> Leftist

Sure but at some point that line gets real blurry.

Not really....there are some very clear delineation points IMO....this being one of them

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [windywave] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 15:17

Post #132 of 211 (421 views)

windywave wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

BarryP wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

Barks&Purrs wrote:

I know of exactly ZERO liberals who think there should be no legal protection for cis girls and women in sports.

Really? This surprises me. There seems to be a pretty big push amongst the left to fully accept trans women as women in all aspects. To do so means acceptance in the change rooms, in competition, on the podiums etc.

I feel like if it weren't liberals pushing this so hard it wouldn't even be a discussion.

Quote:

I’m a very liberal liberal and I wholeheartedly and unreservedly agree that some protection of girls and women is required by our laws as well as general notions of fairness and good sportsmanship.

Just curious to dig a bit deeper here. As a very liberal liberal, and a woman, what are your personal views on what protections should be afforded to women to protect fairness and good sportsmanship? If you could wave a magic wand and create a set of rules or standards to include trans women yet protect cis women in sports, where would that line be?

Lia Thomas "won" a national championship in women's swimming. Now while I can't say for certain that it was liberals who allowed this to happen, can't we deduce that through a process of elimination knowing full well it certainly wasn't conservatives?

Exactly. If it's not very liberal liberals pushing this... Who is?

The Leftist ideologues.

Liberal <> Leftist

The President of the NCAA is Republican former governor. His predecessor is another Republican who used to be Chancellor of that noted leftist hotbed LSU.

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [Nutella] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 18:22

Post #133 of 211 (389 views)

Nutella wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

Nutella wrote:

They didn't move away from surgical intervention on minors as it was already not being done. Contrary to what the right-wing politicians may promote surgical intervention on minors is extremely rare.

Edit: Earlier today Sweden passed a law making it easier for trans minors to surgically transaction, lowering the age from 18 to 16.
Sweden passes law lowering age to change legal gender from 18 to 16 (bbc.com)

None of these countries have put in place the extreme restrictions that some U.S. state have.

https://www.nypost.com/...oach-trans-kids/amp/

You're talking about changing legal gender. That's paperwork. Finland too has relaxed certain rules like those around sterilization requirements before transitioning. That's great, but we are talking about different things.

No, I am not. The law passed yesterday in Sweden does more than just lower the age to change legal gender but it also lowers the age that a person can surgically transition from 18 to 16. It adds oversite as well, which I am all for.

The article you posted https://www.bbc.com/...orld-europe-68841275 says the opposite.

BBC wrote:

Legally changing a person's gender will also be possible from the age of 16, although those under 18 will need the approval of their parents or guardian, a doctor and the National Board of Health and Welfare.

The new law will also separate the process of changing legal gender from gender surgery, which will still need a longer assessment and will still only be allowed from the age of 18.

BCtriguy1 wrote:

It is interesting to see Nordic countries moving away from hormone and surgical intervention and towards a therapy based approach in minors.

And in the UK, the final Cass report was released. https://cass.independent-review.uk/...CassReview_Final.pdf It is fairly critical of the gender-affirming approach to trans health care.

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [Nutella] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 18:52

Post #134 of 211 (385 views)

Nutella wrote:

svennn wrote:

Nutella wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

If it's not very liberal liberals pushing this... Who is?

The group that has been pushing this topic have been right wing legislators who think that demonizing trans people will help them politically.

Maybe they just want competition for their daughter to be fair. A conservative is just the person who will say it because they don't give a shit what the liberals will say about them, but a liberal needs to play to the base.

You really think that the politicians that are doing this because they care about women's sports? Seriously? You don't really believe that do you?

Bingo.

This x1,000

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [ike] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 19:08

Post #135 of 211 (377 views)

ike wrote:

Barks&Purrs wrote:

gofigure wrote:

ike wrote:

As one might expect, the two judges in the majority are D appointees, and the dissenting judge is an R appointee.

The decision:

https://wp.api.aclu.org/...2024/04/Document.pdf

1. Is there anyone or group that did not weigh in ?
2. Can we expect that some of the legal representation was provided pro bono.
3. Am I the only one who finds the D and R schism in the law on matters of this culture war disturbing.

I don’t think the schism is as bad as you might think.

I know of exactly ZERO liberals who think there should be no legal protection for cis girls and women in sports. I’m a very liberal liberal and I wholeheartedly and unreservedly agree that some protection of girls and women is required by our laws as well as general notions of fairness and good sportsmanship.

It seems obviously to many people that trans athletes should be afforded some legal protections as well. Who/ what/ when/ where/ how are all questions that determine the balance of rights.

I woke up feeling optimistic today. I think most people recognize the value of community and the need to balance rights so that everyone can enjoy and participate in community. We’ll get there.

There are many people who think trans women should never be allowed to compete against cis women, except maybe with the consent of the cis women. Whatever the merits of that position, there is no compromise in it. [/b] If someone thinks the plaintiff in this case should lose, then they’re basically taking the absolute position. You can’t get a much better plaintiff than this one. There certainly are serious arguments for the absolute position, but let’s not characterize it as a “balance.” It’s not. It’s saying that the rights of cis women always outweigh those of trans women in the sports context.

I, too, think we will make progress on this issue. We have made progress on so many other civil rights issues, so why not this one?

I didn’t mean to characterize the bolded (above) extreme position as a “balance.” I was trying to say that I know of zero (0) liberals who would take the opposite extreme position, i.e., that the rights of trans athletes always outweigh the cis women’s rights in sports.

I think the Christian Nationalist movement pushes this frenzy, and reasonable people aren’t likely to stick with it to the bitter end. Christian nationalism is too ugly.

Last edited by: Barks&Purrs: Apr 18, 24 19:10

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [TMI] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 19:17

Post #136 of 211 (372 views)

TMI wrote:

The article you posted https://www.bbc.com/...orld-europe-68841275 says the opposite.

Hey, you are right.....for a change.

I misread that there are two laws that were passed. One that lowered the age for legal gender transition and the other removes some of the barriers for surgical transition, like requiring board approval, but keeps the age at 18. Argentina, Belgium, Denmark, Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta, Norway, Portugal, Spain, and Uruguay have similar laws.

Last Friday German also approved similar legislation, lowering the age to 14. No “expert” opinions or medical certificates will be required.

Germany: Landmark Vote for Trans Rights Law | Human Rights Watch (hrw.org)

Last edited by: Nutella: Apr 18, 24 19:31

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [Nutella] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 19:48

Post #137 of 211 (354 views)

Nutella wrote:

svennn wrote:

Nutella wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

If it's not very liberal liberals pushing this... Who is?

The group that has been pushing this topic have been right wing legislators who think that demonizing trans people will help them politically.

Maybe they just want competition for their daughter to be fair. A conservative is just the person who will say it because they don't give a shit what the liberals will say about them, but a liberal needs to play to the base.

You really think that the politicians that are doing this because they care about women's sports? Seriously? You don't really believe that do you?

Many of today's "Conservatives" think big government regulation is the answer to anything.....as long as it might help them at the ballot box.

I don’t think one has to be a diehard or public supporter of anything to be able to recognize right vs wrong.

Do we not think any of “today’s conservatives” have spouses that played sports? Daughters that play sports? Granddaughters? Nieces? Sisters?

There are any number of things I couldn’t care less about in terms of free time or dollars but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t have be able to hold an informed opinion or recognize a pervasive issue within that world.

This is a growing issue that is a widely politicized one. Of course it’s going to be pushed and exploited. But that doesn’t negate the validity. Constituents elect their politicians. DSW spent and entire thread pushing back and used the messenger as his evidence and continues that theme into other threads. That is not evidence enough unfortunately.

Politicians gonna politicize. But that doesn’t mean the issues aren’t (can’t be) legitimate.

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [Endo] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 20:00

Post #138 of 211 (351 views)

Endo wrote:

Yeeper wrote:

Nutella wrote:

Yeeper wrote:

Nutella wrote:

307trout wrote:

I don't think people care about a trans man playing sports against men where the trans person has an inherit disadvantage. When the trans person has a significant biological advantage, obvious protest exists.

A reasonable assumption, however some of these state bans do not take that into account. Texas, Alabama, Missouri, Tennessee, South Carolina ban all trans athletes. There are also some sports, like gymnastics, were a M2F competitor is at a disadvantage.

Really? I understand then role center of gravity plays in certain movements. So I can see how beam is an issue. But Floor, vault, and maybe rings are all power-based and bars require a great deal of upper body strength.

Women do not compete in rings but if they did men would be better. Men would also be better at vault. Women are better on beam and perhaps uneven bars, men do neither. Floor might be a push.

Right I meant bars (uneven); rings was a typo, sorry. A lot of upper body strength.

Floor requires sprinting and jumping for skills on a spring-loaded floor. So the more power pushed into the floor means better air time.

Biological male would seemingly have an advantage on vault, too.

Not sure about beam.

If men participated in beam, the skills displayed would shift to be male-centric things. Probably men wouldn't excel in those crazy back bending moves centered on flexibiltiy. But would usher in some new moves around power to excel in the performance (think jumping higher and thus doing more acrobatic skillz on the beam).

Similarly, if men did uneven bars, the performances would level up on going higher, doing more aerobatics, and larger dismounts.

I don't buy the pov that women have an advantage in gymastics. I think if men participated in girl events, you'd see different things being displayed from men that you would from women to highlight their skills. It would just be different.

I think Slowguy was a collegiate gymnast and probably would have a hot take on it if he cared to.

.

I’d say a male would have a general advantage on floor exercise and vault. Uneven bars only move a certain distance apart and high, and they are more flexible than a high bar (don’t handle heavier weight as well) so males would probably lose any power or strength advantage as they got bigger. There are some moves on balance beam that are just untenable for an intact male, and again, size might become a liability as they got older. But, they could offset that somewhat with added power.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [Barks&Purrs] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 20:46

Post #139 of 211 (328 views)

Barks&Purrs wrote:

ike wrote:

Barks&Purrs wrote:

gofigure wrote:

ike wrote:

As one might expect, the two judges in the majority are D appointees, and the dissenting judge is an R appointee.

The decision:

https://wp.api.aclu.org/...2024/04/Document.pdf

1. Is there anyone or group that did not weigh in ?
2. Can we expect that some of the legal representation was provided pro bono.
3. Am I the only one who finds the D and R schism in the law on matters of this culture war disturbing.

I don’t think the schism is as bad as you might think.

I know of exactly ZERO liberals who think there should be no legal protection for cis girls and women in sports. I’m a very liberal liberal and I wholeheartedly and unreservedly agree that some protection of girls and women is required by our laws as well as general notions of fairness and good sportsmanship.

It seems obviously to many people that trans athletes should be afforded some legal protections as well. Who/ what/ when/ where/ how are all questions that determine the balance of rights.

I woke up feeling optimistic today. I think most people recognize the value of community and the need to balance rights so that everyone can enjoy and participate in community. We’ll get there.

There are many people who think trans women should never be allowed to compete against cis women, except maybe with the consent of the cis women. Whatever the merits of that position, there is no compromise in it. [/b] If someone thinks the plaintiff in this case should lose, then they’re basically taking the absolute position. You can’t get a much better plaintiff than this one. There certainly are serious arguments for the absolute position, but let’s not characterize it as a “balance.” It’s not. It’s saying that the rights of cis women always outweigh those of trans women in the sports context.

I, too, think we will make progress on this issue. We have made progress on so many other civil rights issues, so why not this one?

I didn’t mean to characterize the bolded (above) extreme position as a “balance.” I was trying to say that I know of zero (0) liberals who would take the opposite extreme position, i.e., that the rights of trans athletes always outweigh the cis women’s rights in sports.

I think the Christian Nationalist movement pushes this frenzy, and reasonable people aren’t likely to stick with it to the bitter end. Christian nationalism is too ugly.

I have heard some liberals either explicitly take the “yes, always” position, or something very close it. That position has no balance in it either. However, my impression is that percentage of people who take the “no, never” position vastly exceeds the percentage who take the “yes, always” position.

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [ike] [ In reply to ]

Apr 19, 24 5:55

Post #140 of 211 (275 views)

ike wrote:

Barks&Purrs wrote:

I didn’t mean to characterize the bolded (above) extreme position as a “balance.” I was trying to say that I know of zero (0) liberals who would take the opposite extreme position, i.e., that the rights of trans athletes always outweigh the cis women’s rights in sports.

I think the Christian Nationalist movement pushes this frenzy, and reasonable people aren’t likely to stick with it to the bitter end. Christian nationalism is too ugly.

l have heard some liberals either explicitly take the “yes, always” position, or something very close it. That position has no balance in it either. However, my impression is that percentage of people who take the “no, never” position vastly exceeds the percentage who take the “yes, always” position.

Wait a minute, you heard a person say, "the rights of trans athletes always outweigh cis women’s rights in sports" or something very close to that?? Really? Wow, that seems like a crazy thing that someone would say. How did that conversation even go?

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Apr 19, 24 5:57

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Apr 19, 24 6:27

Post #141 of 211 (267 views)

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

ike wrote:

Barks&Purrs wrote:

I didn’t mean to characterize the bolded (above) extreme position as a “balance.” I was trying to say that I know of zero (0) liberals who would take the opposite extreme position, i.e., that the rights of trans athletes always outweigh the cis women’s rights in sports.

I think the Christian Nationalist movement pushes this frenzy, and reasonable people aren’t likely to stick with it to the bitter end. Christian nationalism is too ugly.

l have heard some liberals either explicitly take the “yes, always” position, or something very close it. That position has no balance in it either. However, my impression is that percentage of people who take the “no, never” position vastly exceeds the percentage who take the “yes, always” position.

Wait a minute, you heard a person say, "the rights of trans athletes always outweigh cis women’s rights in sports" or something very close to that?? Really? Wow, that seems like a crazy thing that someone would say. How did that conversation even go?

It seems remarkable that a liberal, who would traditionally support women’s rights, would utterly abandon women. It makes you wonder about such a person who purports to be a liberal.

But I suppose in the vastness of the world there are some people who fail to develop logical values to guide their judgements. Without the underlying values, it would be difficult, perhaps, to recognize that minority groups need not make enemies of each other to gain & maintain status. Balancing of rights between trans- and cis-women athletes enriches both. It’s a fundamental idea underlying diversity— it reminds me of when black and white workers combined their unions, which resulted in better wages and working conditions for both.

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [Barks&Purrs] [ In reply to ]

Apr 19, 24 6:39

Post #142 of 211 (254 views)

Barks&Purrs wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

ike wrote:

Barks&Purrs wrote:

I didn’t mean to characterize the bolded (above) extreme position as a “balance.” I was trying to say that I know of zero (0) liberals who would take the opposite extreme position, i.e., that the rights of trans athletes always outweigh the cis women’s rights in sports.

I think the Christian Nationalist movement pushes this frenzy, and reasonable people aren’t likely to stick with it to the bitter end. Christian nationalism is too ugly.

l have heard some liberals either explicitly take the “yes, always” position, or something very close it. That position has no balance in it either. However, my impression is that percentage of people who take the “no, never” position vastly exceeds the percentage who take the “yes, always” position.

Wait a minute, you heard a person say, "the rights of trans athletes always outweigh cis women’s rights in sports" or something very close to that?? Really? Wow, that seems like a crazy thing that someone would say. How did that conversation even go?

lt seems remarkable that a liberal, who would traditionally support women’s rights, would utterly abandon women. It makes you wonder about such a person who purports to be a liberal.

Agreed, except that l think that one does not need to be a liberal or a conservative to support human rights. It should be universal. In theory, it is in our constitution (with its amendments of course Smile

Smile

).

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [Barks&Purrs] [ In reply to ]

Apr 19, 24 6:43

Post #143 of 211 (250 views)

Barks&Purrs wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

ike wrote:

Barks&Purrs wrote:

I didn’t mean to characterize the bolded (above) extreme position as a “balance.” I was trying to say that I know of zero (0) liberals who would take the opposite extreme position, i.e., that the rights of trans athletes always outweigh the cis women’s rights in sports.

I think the Christian Nationalist movement pushes this frenzy, and reasonable people aren’t likely to stick with it to the bitter end. Christian nationalism is too ugly.

l have heard some liberals either explicitly take the “yes, always” position, or something very close it. That position has no balance in it either. However, my impression is that percentage of people who take the “no, never” position vastly exceeds the percentage who take the “yes, always” position.

Wait a minute, you heard a person say, "the rights of trans athletes always outweigh cis women’s rights in sports" or something very close to that?? Really? Wow, that seems like a crazy thing that someone would say. How did that conversation even go?

It seems remarkable that a liberal, who would traditionally support women’s rights, would utterly abandon women. It makes you wonder about such a person who purports to be a liberal.

But I suppose in the vastness of the world there are some people who fail to develop logical values to guide their judgements. Without the underlying values, it would be difficult, perhaps, to recognize that minority groups need not make enemies of each other to gain & maintain status. Balancing of rights between trans- and cis-women athletes enriches both. It’s a fundamental idea underlying diversity— it reminds me of when black and white workers combined their unions, which resulted in better wages and working conditions for both.

Extremists exist on both ends of the spectrum. Many people on this forum speak of the uber conservative religious right and how could they possibly do or believe XYZ.

I think this is somewhat the same. The smaller or more extreme the liberal minority the more support they will get even if it means support casted at the expense of other liberal groups.

I know quite a few people that operate with this mindset.

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Apr 19, 24 6:44

Post #144 of 211 (249 views)

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

Barks&Purrs wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

ike wrote:

Barks&Purrs wrote:

I didn’t mean to characterize the bolded (above) extreme position as a “balance.” I was trying to say that I know of zero (0) liberals who would take the opposite extreme position, i.e., that the rights of trans athletes always outweigh the cis women’s rights in sports.

I think the Christian Nationalist movement pushes this frenzy, and reasonable people aren’t likely to stick with it to the bitter end. Christian nationalism is too ugly.

l have heard some liberals either explicitly take the “yes, always” position, or something very close it. That position has no balance in it either. However, my impression is that percentage of people who take the “no, never” position vastly exceeds the percentage who take the “yes, always” position.

Wait a minute, you heard a person say, "the rights of trans athletes always outweigh cis women’s rights in sports" or something very close to that?? Really? Wow, that seems like a crazy thing that someone would say. How did that conversation even go?

lt seems remarkable that a liberal, who would traditionally support women’s rights, would utterly abandon women. It makes you wonder about such a person who purports to be a liberal.

Agreed, except that l think that one does not need to be a liberal or a conservative to support human rights. It should be universal. In theory, it is in our constitution (with its amendments of course Smile

Smile

).

I don’t know that this should be particularly surprising. There’s a segment of progressive liberals who are consistently looking for or attracted to support for the newest marginalized group. And once a marginalized group starts to gain some parity with the rest of the world, advancement of their cause loses some luster.

Plenty of those particular liberals will look at the choice between a transgender kid trying to make a sports team versus a team of privileged white girls (because they will always frame it in terms of the extremes on either side), and it’s easy for them to choose the minority du-jour.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Apr 19, 24 6:49

Post #145 of 211 (242 views)

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

ike wrote:

Barks&Purrs wrote:

I didn’t mean to characterize the bolded (above) extreme position as a “balance.” I was trying to say that I know of zero (0) liberals who would take the opposite extreme position, i.e., that the rights of trans athletes always outweigh the cis women’s rights in sports.

I think the Christian Nationalist movement pushes this frenzy, and reasonable people aren’t likely to stick with it to the bitter end. Christian nationalism is too ugly.

l have heard some liberals either explicitly take the “yes, always” position, or something very close it. That position has no balance in it either. However, my impression is that percentage of people who take the “no, never” position vastly exceeds the percentage who take the “yes, always” position.

Wait a minute, you heard a person say, "the rights of trans athletes always outweigh cis women’s rights in sports" or something very close to that?? Really? Wow, that seems like a crazy thing that someone would say. How did that conversation even go?

Yes, I have heard people say that people can compete according to their gender, regardless of biological sex. I didn’t hear any complex balancing of interests. They just stated it as a basic premise. Not defending it. Just saying it exists, though probably relatively rare.

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]

Apr 19, 24 6:55

Post #146 of 211 (240 views)

Yeeper wrote:

This is a growing issue that is a widely politicized one.

Is it really a growing issue?

When Utah passed it's law it had 75,000 High School athletes. Only one of them was M2F trans
When Alabama passed it's bill there were 190,000 High School athletes in the state. Not a single one was trans
When Mississippi passed it's ban there were 107,000 High School athletes in the state. Not a single one was trans. None in High School, Middle School, or college.
The IOC has allowed Trans athletes for 20+ years. In that time there has been a single trans Olympian, who would no longer qualfiy under the updated IOC regulations.

The primary push behind these laws is politicians using trans people for political gain, it is not because trans people are taking over women's sport.

The correct path is for this to be managed by the federations. Big Government regulation is not the answer.

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [slowguy] [ In reply to ]

Apr 19, 24 6:59

Post #147 of 211 (237 views)

slowguy wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

Barks&Purrs wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

ike wrote:

Barks&Purrs wrote:

I didn’t mean to characterize the bolded (above) extreme position as a “balance.” I was trying to say that I know of zero (0) liberals who would take the opposite extreme position, i.e., that the rights of trans athletes always outweigh the cis women’s rights in sports.

I think the Christian Nationalist movement pushes this frenzy, and reasonable people aren’t likely to stick with it to the bitter end. Christian nationalism is too ugly.

l have heard some liberals either explicitly take the “yes, always” position, or something very close it. That position has no balance in it either. However, my impression is that percentage of people who take the “no, never” position vastly exceeds the percentage who take the “yes, always” position.

Wait a minute, you heard a person say, "the rights of trans athletes always outweigh cis women’s rights in sports" or something very close to that?? Really? Wow, that seems like a crazy thing that someone would say. How did that conversation even go?

lt seems remarkable that a liberal, who would traditionally support women’s rights, would utterly abandon women. It makes you wonder about such a person who purports to be a liberal.

Agreed, except that l think that one does not need to be a liberal or a conservative to support human rights. It should be universal. In theory, it is in our constitution (with its amendments of course Smile

Smile

).

I don’t know that this should be particularly surprising. There’s a segment of progressive liberals who are consistently looking for or attracted to support for the newest marginalized group. And once a marginalized group starts to gain some parity with the rest of the world, advancement of their cause loses some luster.

Plenty of those particular liberals will look at the choice between a transgender kid trying to make a sports team versus a team of privileged white girls (because they will always frame it in terms of the extremes on either side), and it’s easy for them to choose the minority du-jour.

I will take your word for it that they exist, but guess I don't know any of these folks because I have never met a single one in my life. (Well, there was one that might have been a little bit close, but she turned into an anti-vax anti-Biden kook.)

But I talk with trumpers IRL every day at my gym. And, boy, do they like to talk about "the criminals on our border", or "the criminals in Ukraine", or "the criminals in the Biden family", and so on. Because, for them, the cause "du-jour" is what was on fox or newsmax that morning. It entertains me greatly.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [Nutella] [ In reply to ]

Apr 19, 24 7:01

Post #148 of 211 (235 views)

Nutella wrote:

Yeeper wrote:

This is a growing issue that is a widely politicized one.

Is it really a growing issue?

Yes, it is a yuge issue. Fox and newsmax says so.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [Nutella] [ In reply to ]

Apr 19, 24 7:03

Post #149 of 211 (233 views)

Nutella wrote:

Yeeper wrote:

This is a growing issue that is a widely politicized one.

Is it really a growing issue?

When Utah passed it's law it had 75,000 High School athletes. Only one of them was M2F trans
When Alabama passed it's bill there were 190,000 High School athletes in the state. Not a single one was trans
When Mississippi passed it's ban there were 107,000 High School athletes in the state. Not a single one was trans. None in High School, Middle School, or college.
The IOC has allowed Trans athletes for 20+ years. In that time there has been a single trans Olympian, who would no longer qualfiy under the updated IOC regulations.

The primary push behind these laws is politicians using trans people for political gain, it is not because trans people are taking over women's sport.

The correct path is for this to be managed by the federations. Big Government regulation is not the answer.

When did trans women start winning at youth and college levels?

Big govt got involved initially to protect women with title IX (for all avenues not just sport). So why would it now inappropriate for big govt to get invovled to protect them again?

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [Barks&Purrs] [ In reply to ]

Apr 19, 24 7:09

Post #150 of 211 (229 views)

Barks&Purrs wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

ike wrote:

Barks&Purrs wrote:

I didn’t mean to characterize the bolded (above) extreme position as a “balance.” I was trying to say that I know of zero (0) liberals who would take the opposite extreme position, i.e., that the rights of trans athletes always outweigh the cis women’s rights in sports.

I think the Christian Nationalist movement pushes this frenzy, and reasonable people aren’t likely to stick with it to the bitter end. Christian nationalism is too ugly.

l have heard some liberals either explicitly take the “yes, always” position, or something very close it. That position has no balance in it either. However, my impression is that percentage of people who take the “no, never” position vastly exceeds the percentage who take the “yes, always” position.

Wait a minute, you heard a person say, "the rights of trans athletes always outweigh cis women’s rights in sports" or something very close to that?? Really? Wow, that seems like a crazy thing that someone would say. How did that conversation even go?

It seems remarkable that a liberal, who would traditionally support women’s rights, would utterly abandon women. It makes you wonder about such a person who purports to be a liberal.

But I suppose in the vastness of the world there are some people who fail to develop logical values to guide their judgements. Without the underlying values, it would be difficult, perhaps, to recognize that minority groups need not make enemies of each other to gain & maintain status. Balancing of rights between trans- and cis-women athletes enriches both. It’s a fundamental idea underlying diversity— it reminds me of when black and white workers combined their unions, which resulted in better wages and working conditions for both.

They would probably say two things. First, you say “utterly abandon women.” They would say these are women.

Second, a premise of some liberalism is that we should be particularly protective of the least advantaged among us. In our society today, a trans woman who is substantially mocked and shunned by society has a tougher life than a cis gender woman who might wind up one place lower in the final standings. If you had to changes places, would you rather be the plaintiff in that lawsuit or one of the girls she finished ahead of?

Our Partners

transition-DOT-area-AT-slowtwitch-DOT-com

Advertise with us

©1999-2024 Slowtwitch, Inc., and Slowtwitch.com
Reproduction of material from any Slowtwitch.com page
without written permission is strictly prohibited.