Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DavHamm wrote:
synthetic wrote:
i mportant to allow denial. what if it was someone asking the website designer to make a porn site? yes, you must pose these what-ifs for these cases....


I dont believe the porn industry is federally protected against discrimination.

What if it was a Gay porn website? This whole situation is not black and white. One law could not fit all situations current and future. Do you discriminate against one's religion or discriminate against one'ssexual liking? What a disaster our country has become.
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [Herbie Hancock] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Herbie Hancock wrote:
DavHamm wrote:
synthetic wrote:
i mportant to allow denial. what if it was someone asking the website designer to make a porn site? yes, you must pose these what-ifs for these cases....


I dont believe the porn industry is federally protected against discrimination.


What if it was a Gay porn website? This whole situation is not black and white. One law could not fit all situations current and future. Do you discriminate against one's religion or discriminate against one'ssexual liking? What a disaster our country has become.

No, it is not exactly black and white, but it is close.

In the US, you can always discriminate based on the nature and content of the work. You just can't discriminate based on the nature of the person. Especially if the nature of the person is protected by constitutional and/or federal law (race, religion, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, and so on)

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

--
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Thanks, l enjoy discussing this with you, l am hoping to gain new insight on how best to view this dilemma.

Agreed, good discussion.

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
So you feel that the wedding site web designer can make a wedding announcement website with rainbows and hearts for straight couples. But then this designer can legally refuse to make an IDENTICAL wedding website with rainbows and hearts for gay couples?

I guess so, yes, based on the symbolism of things? Does seem weird though...

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
On the related topic, any thoughts why market forces did not do a good job of reducing US racism in the 150 years after the civil war?

Tough question that deserves more thought than I can give it right now. I'd say the short answer is because people, and thus "the market," were / are still racist to some degree that has changed over time? But I also think the market does do a decent job of this, at least sometimes... Businesses / people get axed via public opinion all the time when it comes out they are assholes in some form or fashion...
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [hullcb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
hullcb wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
So you feel that the wedding site web designer can make a wedding announcement website with rainbows and hearts for straight couples. But then this designer can legally refuse to make an IDENTICAL wedding website with rainbows and hearts for gay couples?
I guess so, yes, based on the symbolism of things? Does seem weird though...
Fascinating.

But, if yes, how is that any different from a landord that can rent his apartments to white people. But then this landloard can legally refuse to rent an identical apartment to black people (who have identical backgrounds to the white people)?


Quote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
On the related topic, any thoughts why market forces did not do a good job of reducing US racism in the 150 years after the civil war?
Tough question that deserves more thought than I can give it right now. I'd say the short answer is because people, and thus "the market," were / are still racist to some degree that has changed over time? But I also think the market does do a decent job of this, at least sometimes... Businesses / people get axed via public opinion all the time when it comes out they are assholes in some form or fashion...
Well, not many racist businesses / people got axed via public opinion in the 150 years since the end of slavery, since racism thrived quite well in that period (and thrives today as well, but slightly less since the passage of the 1960s civil rights and affirmative action laws). And then today, if some racist person or business does get "axed", the nutters complain, "oh, they were unfairly cancelled!!"

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

--
Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Dec 5, 22 10:10
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
From Huff Post: this is our SCOTUS circus.......sorry for the weird text font mis-mashes.

"While hearing the case of a Christian graphic artist in Colorado who says designing wedding websites for gay couples is against her faith, Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson asked attorney Kristen Waggoner whether, following her arguments, a hypothetical photographer would be able to refuse taking photos of a white Santa Claus with Black children
Waggoner, who is representing the designer, responded that the photographer would be able to refuse taking the photos.
Alito later tried to turn around Jackson’s analogy by asking whether a Black Santa had to have his picture taken with a child dressed in a Ku Klux Klan robe.
Colorado Solicitor General Eric Olson said no, adding that “Ku Klux Klan outfits are not protected characteristics under public accommodation laws.”
Justice Sonia Sotomayor then chimed in that, “presumedly, that would be the same Ku Klux Klan outfit regardless whether if the child was Black or white or any other characteristic.”
Alito then joked, “You do see a lot of Black children in Ku Klux Klan outfits all the time.”"
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Herbie Hancock wrote:
DavHamm wrote:
synthetic wrote:
i mportant to allow denial. what if it was someone asking the website designer to make a porn site? yes, you must pose these what-ifs for these cases....


I dont believe the porn industry is federally protected against discrimination.


What if it was a Gay porn website? This whole situation is not black and white. One law could not fit all situations current and future. Do you discriminate against one's religion or discriminate against one's sexual liking? What a disaster our country has become.


No, it is not exactly black and white, but it is close.

In the US, you can always discriminate based on the nature and content of the work. You just can't discriminate based on the nature of the person. Especially if the nature of the person is protected by constitutional and/or federal law (race, religion, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, and so on)

We are just chasing our tails. What if the nature and content of the work offends you? I don't want two males or females kissing over my wedding cake in a ceremony I don't believe in or I don't want to film it as a wedding photographer because it is just as bad a pornography to my virgin Christian eyes? Who wins in the case? Does religion trump sexual orientation or vise versa? There is no clear answer and right answer to every situation that a law or decision cannot possibly address. This decision will be as clear as mud.
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The "originalist" justices on the scotus are just a bunch of pathetic jokers and hypocrites. And super weak legal minds.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

--
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [Herbie Hancock] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Herbie Hancock wrote:
We are just chasing our tails. What if the nature and content of the work offends you? I don't want two males or females kissing over my wedding cake in a ceremony I don't believe in or I don't want to film it as a wedding photographer because it is just as bad a pornography to my virgin Christian eyes? Who wins in the case? Does religion trump sexual orientation or vise versa? There is no clear answer and right answer to every situation that a law or decision cannot possibly address. This decision will be as clear as mud.
Would that mean if lifetime platonic female friends kissed, it would offend you ??

Would that mean if a father kissed his son, it would offend you ??

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

--
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
The "originalist" justices on the scotus are just a bunch of pathetic jokers and hypocrites. And super weak legal minds.

You're an idiot sometimes
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [windywave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
windywave wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
The "originalist" justices on the scotus are just a bunch of pathetic jokers and hypocrites. And super weak legal minds.


You're an idiot sometimes

Maybe, but they are idiots all the time.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

--
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Herbie Hancock wrote:
We are just chasing our tails. What if the nature and content of the work offends you? I don't want two males or females kissing over my wedding cake in a ceremony I don't believe in or I don't want to film it as a wedding photographer because it is just as bad a pornography to my virgin Christian eyes? Who wins in the case? Does religion trump sexual orientation or vise versa? There is no clear answer and right answer to every situation that a law or decision cannot possibly address. This decision will be as clear as mud.

Would that mean if lifetime platonic female friends kissed, it would offend you ??

Would that mean if a father kissed his son, it would offend you ??

Again those are not my personal beliefs I'm just pointing out this is a very complicated issue. When I wrote "I" I did not mean in myself, "I" meant the person making that argument. Looking at both sides of the argument here.

Also are these sexual kisses? Are the two girls hot or not?
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
burnthesheep wrote:
From Huff Post: this is our SCOTUS circus.......sorry for the weird text font mis-mashes.

"While hearing the case of a Christian graphic artist in Colorado who says designing wedding websites for gay couples is against her faith, Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson asked attorney Kristen Waggoner whether, following her arguments, a hypothetical photographer would be able to refuse taking photos of a white Santa Claus with Black children
Waggoner, who is representing the designer, responded that the photographer would be able to refuse taking the photos.
Alito later tried to turn around Jackson’s analogy by asking whether a Black Santa had to have his picture taken with a child dressed in a Ku Klux Klan robe.
Colorado Solicitor General Eric Olson said no, adding that “Ku Klux Klan outfits are not protected characteristics under public accommodation laws.”
Justice Sonia Sotomayor then chimed in that, “presumedly, that would be the same Ku Klux Klan outfit regardless whether if the child was Black or white or any other characteristic.”
Alito then joked, “You do see a lot of Black children in Ku Klux Klan outfits all the time.”"

Alito's quip is silly. If a photographer refuses to take pictures of someone wearing KKK robes, that does not mean they are discriminating against white people. Presumably, they are willing to photograph the 99.9999% of white people who don't wear KKK robes to the photo-shoot. In that hypothetical, the discrimination really is about the KKK robes, not the race of the person wearing them (even if we assume that the only people who wear KKK robes are white).

There may be close cases where it's not obvious whether the photographer really is objecting to the clothing or, instead, is using the clothing as a pretext for discriminating on the basis of race, etc. (e.g., if the photographer refuses to photograph anyone wearing a turban). But, Alito's KKK point is not one of those close cases.
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
windywave wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
The "originalist" justices on the scotus are just a bunch of pathetic jokers and hypocrites. And super weak legal minds.


You're an idiot sometimes


Maybe, but they are idiots all the time.

23494 pts for you

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [ike] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ike wrote:
burnthesheep wrote:
From Huff Post: this is our SCOTUS circus.......sorry for the weird text font mis-mashes.

"While hearing the case of a Christian graphic artist in Colorado who says designing wedding websites for gay couples is against her faith, Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson asked attorney Kristen Waggoner whether, following her arguments, a hypothetical photographer would be able to refuse taking photos of a white Santa Claus with Black children
Waggoner, who is representing the designer, responded that the photographer would be able to refuse taking the photos.
Alito later tried to turn around Jackson’s analogy by asking whether a Black Santa had to have his picture taken with a child dressed in a Ku Klux Klan robe.
Colorado Solicitor General Eric Olson said no, adding that “Ku Klux Klan outfits are not protected characteristics under public accommodation laws.”
Justice Sonia Sotomayor then chimed in that, “presumedly, that would be the same Ku Klux Klan outfit regardless whether if the child was Black or white or any other characteristic.”
Alito then joked, “You do see a lot of Black children in Ku Klux Klan outfits all the time.”"


Alito's quip is silly. If a photographer refuses to take pictures of someone wearing KKK robes, that does not mean they are discriminating against white people. Presumably, they are willing to photograph the 99.9999% of white people who don't wear KKK robes to the photo-shoot. In that hypothetical, the discrimination really is about the KKK robes, not the race of the person wearing them (even if we assume that the only people who wear KKK robes are white).

There may be close cases where it's not obvious whether the photographer really is objecting to the clothing or, instead, is using the clothing as a pretext for discriminating on the basis of race, etc. (e.g., if the photographer refuses to photograph anyone wearing a turban). But, Alito's KKK point is not one of those close cases.

Don't forget about Clayton Bigsby.
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [Herbie Hancock] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It’s probably already been said, but if Christians were honest with themselves about what parts of the Bible they cherry-pick, it would be easy for them to realize why so many see them as hypocritical.
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [TimeIsUp] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TimeIsUp wrote:
It’s probably already been said, but if Christians were honest with themselves about what parts of the Bible they cherry-pick, it would be easy for them to realize why so many see them as hypocritical.

Plus, most Christians eat lobster. And that is, according to the Bible, an abomination.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

--
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
TimeIsUp wrote:
It’s probably already been said, but if Christians were honest with themselves about what parts of the Bible they cherry-pick, it would be easy for them to realize why so many see them as hypocritical.

Plus, most Christians eat lobster. And that is, according to the Bible, an abomination.

Which part? And you're wrong but i am somewhat bored and this is a layup
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [windywave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This part:
But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is detestable to you.


You're bored? Maybe find a hobby? More swim-bike-run perhaps?

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

--
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
This part:
But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is detestable to you.


You're bored? Maybe find a hobby? More swim-bike-run perhaps?

I encourage you to read Thomas Aquinas. I shall award you three points for creativity in your wrongness however
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [windywave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
windywave wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
This part:
But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is detestable to you.


You're bored? Maybe find a hobby? More swim-bike-run perhaps?

I encourage you to read Thomas Aquinas. I shall award you three points for creativity in your wrongness however

Seriously? I need to read a book to understand another kooky book? Thanks, I'll pass.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

--
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
windywave wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
This part:
But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is detestable to you.


You're bored? Maybe find a hobby? More swim-bike-run perhaps?

I encourage you to read Thomas Aquinas. I shall award you three points for creativity in your wrongness however

Seriously? I need to read a book to understand another kooky book? Thanks, I'll pass.

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2098.htm

TLDR

Catholics don't have to follow the old testament ceremonial law
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
This part:
But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is detestable to you.


You're bored? Maybe find a hobby? More swim-bike-run perhaps?

Shit I thought this would be good, but the Lev... which I think is old testament so Jews can't eat it but Christians are all new testament.

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DavHamm wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
This part:
But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is detestable to you.


You're bored? Maybe find a hobby? More swim-bike-run perhaps?

Shit I thought this would be good, but the Lev... which I think is old testament so Jews can't eat it but Christians are all new testament.

You should make him answer why that is the case though
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This case is just so fucked up and I assume that the right wing nut jobs on the court will lie about the case to justify their ruling, like they did in Kennedy v Bremerton (the one about the asshole football coach).

Here are the facts:

1)Nobody asked her to make a website for a gay wedding.
2)She has never been asked to make a website for any sort of wedding.
3)Colorado law does not force her to make a website for a gay couple, even if she is asked.
4)Colorado law only insists that once Smith has designed a wedding website, she must allow same-sex couples to purchase that product. In essence, Colorado says she must sell her website template to all customers, regardless of their identity.

So Colorado law is not forcing her to make a gay website, it only forces her to provide the same blank template if she makes a blank template for someone, which she hasn't even done.

If she made a custom website for a straight couple's wedding, with their pictures, names, link to their registries, etc, Colorado law would not force her to do the same for a gay couple, because they would want different pictures, names, etc. The Colorado law only applies to the same product. This is why it would only really apply if she was selling blank templates.

Nobody is forcing her speech here.

This is just going to end with an absolutely insane ruling that has nothing to do with the actual facts here.
Quote Reply
Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Given your past performance here I am assuming your analysis is near golden. I listened to the much of the oral arguments today and I have worked my way through this thread and up until your post summary I was thoroughly fucking confused. Thanks for the cliff notes. I am less confused now.

One question though. My daughter has made a rainbow colored layer cake for her son for his 5th and 6th birthdays. Were I to ask the baker in Colorado to bake that same cake could he refuse?
Quote Reply

Prev Next