Freedom to choose clients, here we go again.

Dec 3, 22 12:26

Post #1 of 98 (1332 views)

https://www.scotusblog.com/...discrimination-laws/

Lots of mixed thoughts on this. First even if they had to take on the clients, they could make their feelings known, and explain about art and passion, and say I might not give you the best results. But why would you go to an artist / creator and ask them to create something they are not interested in or behind?

Do you really want a baker / cake decorator doing your cake if they don't agree with your wedding? Obviously this is outside the rule of law, but would they really get a lot of clients anyhow?

A cake , a website design. These are not really high on the list of things that approach a basic need nor highly specialized that you can't find someone else to do it.

I guess, I think she should be able to say, Hey I don't want to do a wedding website (this is even a thing) for a xxx type of wedding, but if you ask I am legally obligated to create you one, just might not be my most inspired work.

Is there something in the anti-discrimination laws, that require you to do your best work, or just simply you can't turn away the job?

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 12:29

Post #2 of 98 (1320 views)

DavHamm wrote:

https://www.scotusblog.com/...discrimination-laws/

Lots of mixed thoughts on this. First even if they had to take on the clients, they could make their feelings known, and explain about art and passion, and say I might not give you the best results. But why would you go to an artist / creator and ask them to create something they are not interested in or behind?

Do you really want a baker / cake decorator doing your cake if they don't agree with your wedding?

That's not why they're doing it. One could argue they're acting in bad faith but then the Lefty Brigade gets all up in arms.

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [windywave] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 12:32

Post #3 of 98 (1313 views)

windywave wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

https://www.scotusblog.com/...discrimination-laws/

Lots of mixed thoughts on this. First even if they had to take on the clients, they could make their feelings known, and explain about art and passion, and say I might not give you the best results. But why would you go to an artist / creator and ask them to create something they are not interested in or behind?

Do you really want a baker / cake decorator doing your cake if they don't agree with your wedding?

That's not why they're doing it. One could argue they're acting in bad faith but then the Lefty Brigade gets all up in arms.

I don't know why I bother, but would you like to explain yourself instead of just putting cryptic one sentence useless comments?

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 12:38

Post #4 of 98 (1299 views)

My Dad's solution for this "problem" was basically treating people like shit and making it clear they weren't welcome. He was a barber, so I guess he could have given them a shitty haircut too, maybe he did.

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 12:38

Post #5 of 98 (1299 views)

i mportant to allow denial. what if it was someone asking the website designer to make a porn site? yes, you must pose these what-ifs for these cases....

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [synthetic] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 12:41

Post #6 of 98 (1294 views)

synthetic wrote:

i mportant to allow denial. what if it was someone asking the website designer to make a porn site? yes, you must pose these what-ifs for these cases....

I think the issue would be if you made porn sites but then wouldn't do it for one protected group in particular.

If you just didn't make porn sites, it wouldn't be an issue.

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 12:46

Post #7 of 98 (1285 views)

DavHamm wrote:

windywave wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

https://www.scotusblog.com/...discrimination-laws/

Lots of mixed thoughts on this. First even if they had to take on the clients, they could make their feelings known, and explain about art and passion, and say I might not give you the best results. But why would you go to an artist / creator and ask them to create something they are not interested in or behind?

Do you really want a baker / cake decorator doing your cake if they don't agree with your wedding?

That's not why they're doing it. One could argue they're acting in bad faith but then the Lefty Brigade gets all up in arms.

I don't know why I bother, but would you like to explain yourself instead of just putting cryptic one sentence useless comments?

For a bakery case an "acrivist" explicitly chose a baker who didn't want to do a gay wedding so they could sue them and force the baker to make a cake.

Should a gay baker me forced to make Westboro Baptist cakes?

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [synthetic] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 12:48

Post #8 of 98 (1280 views)

synthetic wrote:

i mportant to allow denial. what if it was someone asking the website designer to make a porn site? yes, you must pose these what-ifs for these cases....

I dont believe the porn industry is federally protected against discrimination.

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 12:51

Post #9 of 98 (1272 views)

DavHamm wrote:

synthetic wrote:

i mportant to allow denial. what if it was someone asking the website designer to make a porn site? yes, you must pose these what-ifs for these cases....

I dont believe the porn industry is federally protected against discrimination.

Um being gay ain't a protected class....hence the state law in question here

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 12:52

Post #10 of 98 (1270 views)

DavHamm wrote:

windywave wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

https://www.scotusblog.com/...discrimination-laws/

Lots of mixed thoughts on this. First even if they had to take on the clients, they could make their feelings known, and explain about art and passion, and say I might not give you the best results. But why would you go to an artist / creator and ask them to create something they are not interested in or behind?

Do you really want a baker / cake decorator doing your cake if they don't agree with your wedding?

That's not why they're doing it. One could argue they're acting in bad faith but then the Lefty Brigade gets all up in arms.

I don't know why I bother, but would you like to explain yourself instead of just putting cryptic one sentence useless comments?

Have you heard this joke before?

A masochist and a sadist are walking down the street together. The masochist says ‘hit me,’ and the sadist says, ‘no, I won’t.’

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 12:56

Post #11 of 98 (1266 views)

DavHamm wrote:

windywave wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

https://www.scotusblog.com/...discrimination-laws/

Lots of mixed thoughts on this. First even if they had to take on the clients, they could make their feelings known, and explain about art and passion, and say I might not give you the best results. But why would you go to an artist / creator and ask them to create something they are not interested in or behind?

Do you really want a baker / cake decorator doing your cake if they don't agree with your wedding?

That's not why they're doing it. One could argue they're acting in bad faith but then the Lefty Brigade gets all up in arms.

I don't know why I bother, but would you like to explain yourself instead of just putting cryptic one sentence useless comments?

Windy is classically guilty of the same technicality he blames others of. It is important to note it is the righty brigade that is all up in arms bringing the case. The anti gay website designer wants the Supreme Court to give them cover. This is not some gay couple looking to have her make them a website bringing this to court.

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [windywave] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 13:00

Post #12 of 98 (1260 views)

windywave wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

windywave wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

https://www.scotusblog.com/...discrimination-laws/

Lots of mixed thoughts on this. First even if they had to take on the clients, they could make their feelings known, and explain about art and passion, and say I might not give you the best results. But why would you go to an artist / creator and ask them to create something they are not interested in or behind?

Do you really want a baker / cake decorator doing your cake if they don't agree with your wedding?

That's not why they're doing it. One could argue they're acting in bad faith but then the Lefty Brigade gets all up in arms.

I don't know why I bother, but would you like to explain yourself instead of just putting cryptic one sentence useless comments?

For a bakery case an "acrivist" explicitly chose a baker who didn't want to do a gay wedding so they could sue them and force the baker to make a cake.

Should a gay baker me forced to make Westboro Baptist cakes?

Are Westboro Baptist protected by federal law from discrimination?

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 13:12

Post #13 of 98 (1253 views)

Everyone should have the right to deny their service or whatever they do to anyone they choose, that simple. If people are discriminatory or otherwise out of line then the free market should correct the situation.

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 13:21

Post #14 of 98 (1247 views)

DavHamm wrote:

windywave wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

windywave wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

https://www.scotusblog.com/...discrimination-laws/

Lots of mixed thoughts on this. First even if they had to take on the clients, they could make their feelings known, and explain about art and passion, and say I might not give you the best results. But why would you go to an artist / creator and ask them to create something they are not interested in or behind?

Do you really want a baker / cake decorator doing your cake if they don't agree with your wedding?

That's not why they're doing it. One could argue they're acting in bad faith but then the Lefty Brigade gets all up in arms.

I don't know why I bother, but would you like to explain yourself instead of just putting cryptic one sentence useless comments?

For a bakery case an "acrivist" explicitly chose a baker who didn't want to do a gay wedding so they could sue them and force the baker to make a cake.

Should a gay baker me forced to make Westboro Baptist cakes?

Are Westboro Baptist protected by federal law from discrimination?

Yes, if said discrimination is based on their religion.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 13:25

Post #15 of 98 (1235 views)

DavHamm wrote:

windywave wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

windywave wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

https://www.scotusblog.com/...discrimination-laws/

Lots of mixed thoughts on this. First even if they had to take on the clients, they could make their feelings known, and explain about art and passion, and say I might not give you the best results. But why would you go to an artist / creator and ask them to create something they are not interested in or behind?

Do you really want a baker / cake decorator doing your cake if they don't agree with your wedding?

That's not why they're doing it. One could argue they're acting in bad faith but then the Lefty Brigade gets all up in arms.

I don't know why I bother, but would you like to explain yourself instead of just putting cryptic one sentence useless comments?

For a bakery case an "acrivist" explicitly chose a baker who didn't want to do a gay wedding so they could sue them and force the baker to make a cake.

Should a gay baker me forced to make Westboro Baptist cakes?

Are Westboro Baptist protected by federal law from discrimination?

Yes

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [hullcb] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 13:26

Post #16 of 98 (1234 views)

hullcb wrote:

Everyone should have the right to deny their service or whatever they do to anyone they choose, that simple. If people are discriminatory or otherwise out of line then the free market should correct the situation.

Theoretically I agree with this but practically I'm not as solid in my agreement

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [windywave] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 13:27

Post #17 of 98 (1233 views)

windywave wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

synthetic wrote:

i mportant to allow denial. what if it was someone asking the website designer to make a porn site? yes, you must pose these what-ifs for these cases....

I dont believe the porn industry is federally protected against discrimination.

Um being gay ain't a protected class....hence the state law in question here

Sex is clearly a protected class. And if you will do a website for a man and a woman, but won't do one for a man and a man, you are clearly discriminating based on sex. Because the only reason you are refusing is because of the sex of the individuals.

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [chaparral] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 13:33

Post #18 of 98 (1222 views)

chaparral wrote:

windywave wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

synthetic wrote:

i mportant to allow denial. what if it was someone asking the website designer to make a porn site? yes, you must pose these what-ifs for these cases....

I dont believe the porn industry is federally protected against discrimination.

Um being gay ain't a protected class....hence the state law in question here

Sex is clearly a protected class. And if you will do a website for a man and a woman, but won't do one for a man and a man, you are clearly discriminating based on sex. Because the only reason you are refusing is because of the sex of the individuals.

That’s your opinion, and it’s shared by many people, but it isn’t currently codified by federal law that way.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [slowguy] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 13:39

Post #19 of 98 (1211 views)

slowguy wrote:

chaparral wrote:

windywave wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

synthetic wrote:

i mportant to allow denial. what if it was someone asking the website designer to make a porn site? yes, you must pose these what-ifs for these cases....

I dont believe the porn industry is federally protected against discrimination.

Um being gay ain't a protected class....hence the state law in question here

Sex is clearly a protected class. And if you will do a website for a man and a woman, but won't do one for a man and a man, you are clearly discriminating based on sex. Because the only reason you are refusing is because of the sex of the individuals.

That’s your opinion, and it’s shared by many people, but it isn’t currently codified by federal law that way.

Facts don't matter to true believers

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [hullcb] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 13:48

Post #20 of 98 (1199 views)

hullcb wrote:

Everyone should have the right to deny their service or whatever they do to anyone they choose, that simple. If people are discriminatory or otherwise out of line then the free market should correct the situation.

This is one of those cases where the Libertarian position sounds good at first blush but then if you think about it, it's not.

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [hullcb] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 13:59

Post #21 of 98 (1186 views)

hullcb wrote:

Everyone should have the right to deny their service or whatever they do to anyone they choose, that simple. If people are discriminatory or otherwise out of line then the free market should correct the situation.

Interesting.

African Americans were/are widely discriminated against since the end of the US Civil War. Discrimated against by private individuals and private organizations. And by parts of the US govt, and by the DOD. How well did the free market "correct the situation"? There sure was lots of time for the market to do so.

Serious question.

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Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Dec 3, 22 14:07

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 14:21

Post #22 of 98 (1166 views)

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

hullcb wrote:

Everyone should have the right to deny their service or whatever they do to anyone they choose, that simple. If people are discriminatory or otherwise out of line then the free market should correct the situation.

Interesting.

African Americans were/are widely discriminated against since the end of the US Civil War. Discrimated against by private individuals and private organizations. And by parts of the US govt, and by the DOD. How well did the free market "correct the situation"? There sure was lots of time for the market to do so.

Serious question.

I said in my post they should be allowed to deny service to "anyone" they choose, but really I should have said "any-thing." Denying service because the couple is gay = discriminatory and not okay. But not wanting to make a gay-themed cake should be within the rights of the baker. Same deal with race... can't deny service to someone because of race, but I should be able to deny the service based on what they might want me to do that might involve race...

Last edited by: hullcb: Dec 3, 22 14:22

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [hullcb] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 14:27

Post #23 of 98 (1157 views)

But going back to the gay couple:

They just want you (the baker) to make a cake for them. Just like a straight couple would. What is different? How would the market fix this?

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Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 14:38

Post #24 of 98 (1144 views)

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

But going back to the gay couple:

They just want you (the baker) to make a cake for them. Just like a straight couple would. What is different? How would the market fix this?

The market should fix things because if it becomes known the baker is a discriminatory asshole, people go elsewhere.

The cake in question in most of the cases has a gay theme or is celebrating a gay marriage or something, right? As in it's not entirely "just another cake," but a cake celebrating something the baker doesn't agree with. And by the way, I think the baker's are assholes in these situations. But I still think the most logical approach is to allow people the right to deny. If you force these people to make cakes celebrating a gay marriage, are you cool forcing less popular opinions as well? And if not where do you draw the line?

Re: Freedom to choose clients, here we go again. [hullcb] [ In reply to ]

Dec 3, 22 14:47

Post #25 of 98 (1123 views)

hullcb wrote:

The market should fix things because if it becomes known the baker is a discriminatory asshole, people go elsewhere.

I think the greatest central libertarian myth about "free" markets is that they have a bias towards freedom and justice. But in terms of economic theory, they have no such thing. They just provide economic characteristics, like market efficiency. Markets don't care if most market agents are bigoted. Not one bit. I don't think they should be considered a tool to solve social problems.

Quote:

cool forcing less popular opinions as well? And if not where do you draw the line?

Like a child porn cake? I'll watch out for that slipperly slope when pedophiles become a protected class.

Last edited by: trail: Dec 3, 22 14:48

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