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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [patf] [ In reply to ]
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This started years ago and will not go anywhere.Joe and Co. are trying their darndest to restrict ,wasted effort on the braces.
ATF Changes Their Mind (Again, and Again, and Again)
Then, in 2015, the ATF abruptly announced that they were reversing course and ruled that how the user uses the brace determines its classification (NFA or non-NFA). When used as intended, with a velcro strap that secures the brace to the shooter’s forearm, it is legal to own. When shouldered as a buttstock, it’s an NFA item. This just added to the confusion because it not only left the classification up to the user, but it contradicted their ruling of just one year prior.

SB Tactical and SIG Sauer initiated a legal battle with ATF, searching for clarification. Finally, in 2017, AFT relented and admitted that a user must physically “reconfigure” the brace in order for it to change categories from pistol to short-barreled rifle. Simply holding it in a different manner does not change the category. Score a victory for SB Tactical.

So braces were legal again, that is until August of 2020 when a firearms manufacturer named Q released an AR-style pistol with an SB Tactical brace called the Honeybadger. Shortly after its release, ATF sent a cease-and-desist letter to Q informing them that the Honeybadger was a short-barreled rifle and required a tax stamp to own. Q moved quickly and issued a $200 refund to all owners (the cost of the tax stamp), and also took legal steps with the ATF to clarify the situation.

With mounting pressure from gun owners as well as Congress, the Department of Justice stepped in and announced a 60-day hold on the decision about braces, pushing the date back past the presidential election.

In December of 2020, DOJ issued a new, 16-page “proposal” on braces, and allowed for public comment before enacting it. The public acted swiftly, with over 60,000 comments on the website in just 17 days, nearly unanimously against the proposal. In a stunning move, the DOJ reversed course and withdrew the proposal. Another win for gun owners.

DOJ still says that changes are “pending”, so that could happen at any time. In fact, the day before writing this, President Joe Biden announced several recommended gun control moves, one of which is classifying stabilizing braces as NFA items. As of this printing, he has not signed any executive orders, but it may happen soon.
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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [patf] [ In reply to ]
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patf wrote:
i've never seen anyone using a brace or ar15 pistol at the range.

On the youtubes...

Suffer Well.
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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [Clutch Cargo] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the synopsis. Very helpful.
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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
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Maybe a case of the pot calling the kettle black ...

Wow, that's really racist.

Pink? That phrase has no racist origin or meaning.

"...the street finds its own uses for things"
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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [AutomaticJack] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, it was a joke. Colion Noir is black. I was curious if DSW had watched the video, which was subject of this thread.
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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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Of course l watched the video.

And l watched a few others by him too. Colion, while he seems to hate Biden and clearly distorts reality with terms like the anti gun "industry", seems mostly competent.

I think though that since he is African American, that if he ever uses one of his firearms to defend himself, the NRA and the gun actual industry will leave him to twist in the wind ...

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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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I think though that since he is African American, that if he ever uses one of his firearms to defend himself, the NRA and the gun actual industry will leave him to twist in the wind ...

Possibly, but I doubt it.
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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
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I think though that since he is African American, that if he ever uses one of his firearms to defend himself, the NRA and the gun actual industry will leave him to twist in the wind ...


Possibly, but I doubt it.

Has the NRA gone to bat for many African American legal gun owners who ended up using their firearms to defend themselves against white assailants or white police officers?

If yes, I would be interested to learn about these cases. Surely, there have been many such cases where the NRA got involved or made public statements. Got any links?

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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
jkhayc wrote:
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I think though that since he is African American, that if he ever uses one of his firearms to defend himself, the NRA and the gun actual industry will leave him to twist in the wind ...


Possibly, but I doubt it.


Has the NRA gone to bat for many African American legal gun owners who ended up using their firearms to defend themselves against white assailants or white police officers?

I don't know, I haven't looked it up. But given that he has 2.2m subscribers and works with many "industry" manufacturers my ASSumption is that were he to legally use his firearm to defend himself the "industry" would not "leave him to twist in the wind."

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If yes, I would be interested to learn about these cases. Surely, there have been many such cases where the NRA got involved or made public statements. Got any links?

I never made any particular assertions that there existed "many cases." I was making a specific assertion in THIS case based on the context of Colion Noir's position in the "industry."
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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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Understood.

But, it is an interesting question more generally:

Has the NRA gone to bat much for black legal owners who use their legal guns to defend themselves?

If no, why not?

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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Understood.

But, it is an interesting question more generally:

Has the NRA gone to bat much for black legal owners who use their legal guns to defend themselves?

If no, why not?

I don't know.
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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Understood.

But, it is an interesting question more generally:

Has the NRA gone to bat much for black legal owners who use their legal guns to defend themselves?

If no, why not?

I'll set the bait........as soon as an incident occurs....

white = good guy with a gun argument
black = criminals with guns argument

Not that I necessarily believe in some massive gun conspiracy on that, just going ahead and posting the logical endpoint of the thought to get it over with.

To honestly think on that one, I do wonder if socioeconomic status might play more into it than race.
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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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Has the NRA defended any americans who used their legal guns to protect themselves?

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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
Not that I necessarily believe in some massive gun conspiracy on that, just going ahead and posting the logical endpoint of the thought to get it over with.

To honestly think on that one, I do wonder if socioeconomic status might play more into it than race.

No conspiracy, but race has lots to do with it:

"According to Dr. Potter, the NRA has a long history of supporting gun control laws, advocating for a deterioration of gun rights for nonwhite people and an expansion of gun rights for law enforcement — as a leading proponent of the 1938 Gun Control Act, and gun control measures amid the assassinations of President John F. Kennedy, Sen. Robert F. Kennedy and Dr. Martin Luther King in the 1960s. “What speaks volumes here is that in response to the murder of MLK, the NRA chose to advocate for gun control. They did not choose to highlight the fact that MLK had attempted to become an owner of firearms after his home was bombed in 1956 — but he was denied,” she said. “After being denied a firearm for self-defense in his own home, community members began an armed watch outside of his residence. This set the stage for the modern battle between white rights and black rights under the Second Amendment."

more here:
https://atlantablackstar.com/...complicated-history/

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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Has the NRA defended any americans who used their legal guns to protect themselves?


I don't think it's in the NRAs purview to legally defend an individual American's use of firearms in a protection/defense scenario.
Last edited by: jkhayc: Sep 8, 22 7:29
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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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Other gun organizations regularly make statements supporting individuals:



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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Well then you need to be more clear about what you are asking as it seems that you are asking if the NRA will make a social media post regarding the use of a firearm. I assumed you meant legally defend.

I didn't even have to look hard

So I guess the answer is "yes" the NRA will "defend" a POC in the scenario you mention.
Last edited by: jkhayc: Sep 8, 22 7:37
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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry for the lack of clarity.

Yes, I meant "defend" in the media and/or on social media and/or by campaign and/or by email and/or by text, etc.

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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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"what is the big advantage to a SBR?"


It is short.
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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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jimatbeyond wrote:
"what is the big advantage to a SBR?"

It is short.


What is the big advantage of that? Easier concealment? I assume there is trade off with a shorter barrel?

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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Concealment and ease of movement in close quarters are the benefits.

A shorter barrel results in lower bullet velocity. A 20" barrel will give you a little over 2,940 fps. A 16" barrel will give you around 2,740 fps. A 10" barrel will give you around 2,520 fps. It's still gonna kill.
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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
jimatbeyond wrote:
"what is the big advantage to a SBR?"

It is short.



What is the big advantage of that? Easier concealment? I assume there is trade off with a shorter barrel?

Depends. Concealment is one. Maneuverability, especially in tight spaces is another (like a clearing a building). Shorter overall length when using a suppressor often a reason. It looks like the rifles used by real action guys use is another.

The minimum barrel length for a rifle is 16 inches from breech face to end of the barrel. Some people use a 14.5 inch barrel with a permanently attached muzzle device to make the barrel 16 inches and keep out of the hassles related to a SBR. Some braced pistols have barrels that are as short 5.5 inches. Some 7 inches. Many are in the 9 to 12.5 inch size.

For all of those reasons, 16 inch barrel has become very common lately for civilian AR rifles. The M16A2 I was issued when I joined the Marines had a 20 inch barrel. The M4 that replaced it has a 14.5 barrel.

Trade offs to a shorter barrel are when used with the 5.56/.223 round, the shorter the barrel has a lower muzzle velocity when used with the same ammunition and therefore range/accuracy. Both the 20 inch barrel and 14.5 inch one are accurate enough in the most common engagement ranges of under 300 meters. Also there needs to be some changes to the gas system/buffer spring differences the timing of the 8 step firing cycle as ammunition is optimized around the longer barrels.

Many of the really short barreled AR pistols don't use 5.56. Some use 300 Blackout or 6.5 Grendel. There are some AR pistols that use 9mm. I'm not well versed in the non 5.56 AR/military platforms.

Suffer Well.
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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [jmh] [ In reply to ]
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jmh wrote:
Depends. Concealment is one. Maneuverability, especially in tight spaces is another (like a clearing a building). Shorter overall length when using a suppressor often a reason. It looks like the rifles used by real action guys use is another.

Good info, thanks.

But why would a civilian who is purchasing a rifle for personal use (such as home defense, sport, or hunting) need to worry about concealment and clearing a building?

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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
jmh wrote:
Depends. Concealment is one. Maneuverability, especially in tight spaces is another (like a clearing a building). Shorter overall length when using a suppressor often a reason. It looks like the rifles used by real action guys use is another.


Good info, thanks.

But why would a civilian who is purchasing a rifle for personal use (such as home defense, sport, or hunting) need to worry about concealment and clearing a building?

Just say what you want to say. It's obvious to anyone with half a brain you have something in mind.....
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Re: New ATF ruling on Pistol Braces. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
jmh wrote:
Depends. Concealment is one. Maneuverability, especially in tight spaces is another (like a clearing a building). Shorter overall length when using a suppressor often a reason. It looks like the rifles used by real action guys use is another.

Good info, thanks.

But why would a civilian who is purchasing a rifle for personal use (such as home defense, sport, or hunting) need to worry about concealment and clearing a building?

Maneuverability at home for ease of defense if needed. Kind of why short barreled shotguns are chosen for hone defense. Mosberg shockwave is 14”.
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