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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [tlc13] [ In reply to ]
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tlc13 wrote:
+1, but who keeps a receipt from a food truck?

I've been on the road for work most of the last 2 weeks (and hitting the airport again tomorrow). I've got receipts from airport restaurants, fast food joints, 7-11s, hotel restaurants, and yes, even from 2 food trucks this past weekend. Gotta have the receipts if I want to get reimbursed...

"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"
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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [hbog12] [ In reply to ]
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I am surprised no one is discussing this test was by AIU and why?

Was it a tip off or is there evidence to support their concerns?
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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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First interview and she decided to do it with... Fox News:

https://video.foxnews.com/...999001#sp=show-clips
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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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Saw this story on Outside I think. Strange that I feel like I should care one way or another. Not because Shelby is expendable but because there are so many other problems in the world. Of all the problems in the world this is one that is occupying my brain? Part of me thinks I am overinvested in certain things at the expense of others.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [hubcaps] [ In reply to ]
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hubcaps wrote:
First interview and she decided to do it with... Fox News:


https://video.foxnews.com/...999001#sp=show-clips

Yea, was a train wreck of an interview.
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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [tlc13] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, not a lawyer but if I had one I wouldn’t be interrupting him. Certainly allow him to carry the message so to speak.

I feel sorry for the food truck being thrown under the bus.

Maurice
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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [SheTries] [ In reply to ]
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Steve Magness just put up this great post:

So... let's go through this quickly. Houlihan tests positive for nandrolone with 5 ng/ml.

They make sure she's not pregnant.

Then because she falls between 2.5 and 15 ng, they run another test (GC/C/IRMS) to see if the nandrolone source is endogenous or exogenous.

The lab says this test showed an exogenous source.

This is where the dispute comes in. Houlihan's team claims it should basically go down the other path of endogenous/inconclusive and ultimately the yellow ATF box.

Why do they claim that?

They claim that she consumed uncastrated boar meat. This is IMPORTANT.

The WADA document states if an athlete ate boar meat and the nandrolone level was below 10, then the GC/C/IRMS test isn't what should be used to determine things, but the "pharmacokinetics of N-19 excretion”

In laymen's terms, boar meat throws off the GC/C/IRMS test to determine endo/exogenous.

So if you ate boar, you don't use that test. Instead, you are supposed to try to determine via looking at the pharmacokinetics of the nandrolone metabolites.

If they go down the pharmacokinetics path, then based on the data/info provided by Houlihan's lawyer, you'd end up in the yellow Atypical finding spot.

Now you can see why boar meat is such an important part. If true, it shifts away from the exogenous test and to an ATF.

The crux of the argument lies in the lab saying it's exogenous/not accepting meat consumption & Houlihan saying meat consumption & should go down other path.

So what?

This is a technical argument based on the procedure.

Houlihan's argument rests on accepting it was boar meat so the GC/C/IRMS (exogenous) test isn't used.

AIU's rests on not being meat-related and thus it's okay to use the GC/C/IRMS test to show its exogenous.

We need to see the full data/reasoned decision to understand more. But, hopefully that brings a touch of clarity on the technical nature of the case and what both sides are arguing.

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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [hubcaps] [ In reply to ]
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Sudden big gains + a positive test usually means one thing
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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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iron_mike wrote:
The_Exile wrote:
Having read a bit more about it, I am absolutely amazed that a track athlete and her coach have both never heard of Nandrolone. Maybe it is because I am British and of an age where I grew up seeing Linford Christie on the TV constantly, but I am hugely shocked that neither of them have even heard of it.



yeah, that part just doesn't pass the basic smell test. i'm a mediocre age-group triathlete, and i've heard of nandrolone. hell, everyone and their brother was taking that stuff 20 years ago. there were many people busted for it, including endurance athletes - dieter baumann, spencer smith, jurgen zack, olivier bernhard, etc etc etc...

Just to be clear, Smith was exonerated by CAS in a trial.
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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [UK Gearmuncher] [ In reply to ]
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yep - i think a few of the nandrolone positives were. as slowman said above, there were some problems with the testing and thresholds in the early days. that again seems like a good reason to know about it!

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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Here's the thing the wada list is sent out and published yearly. Every athlete would and should read it. Nandrolone is listed there in the first category, you don't even need to remember the name exactly because a huge number of the banned anabolic androgenic steroids end in 'one' (testosterone, nandrolone,Androsterone etc) if the letter arrived saying she was positive for nandrolone she and her coach should have known straight up it was an anabolic steroid. Denying they had any idea what it was just makes them look ridiculous.
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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [hubcaps] [ In reply to ]
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My reading of the WADA doc is that they have to to the GC/C/IRMS test to determine the isotope ratio if the result is between 2.5 and 15 (not pregnant) and > 15 (pregnant). That has 2 possible outcomes - exogenous or inconclusive/endogenous. The GC/C/IRMS test determines the C13/C12 ratio in the carbon backbone of the steroid, which is ultimately dependent on the plant or lower animal source consumed if formed endogenously in people or pigs......as opposed to nandrolone made in a lab which uses specific plants as the source of the steroid backbone (presumably those rich in this type of structure such as Soy) and has a different C13/C12 ratio as a result of metabolic/chemical pathways within the plants. Pork consumption should result in a endogenous/inconclusive result from the GC/C/IRMS test....which i presume it didn't otherwise this would have been a ATF at worst.
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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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NAB777 wrote:
Sudden big gains + a positive test usually means one thing

Yep, the simplest is answer is usually the right answer.
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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [rich_m] [ In reply to ]
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rich_m wrote:
My reading of the WADA doc is that they have to to the GC/C/IRMS test to determine the isotope ratio if the result is between 2.5 and 15 (not pregnant) and > 15 (pregnant). That has 2 possible outcomes - exogenous or inconclusive/endogenous. The GC/C/IRMS test determines the C13/C12 ratio in the carbon backbone of the steroid, which is ultimately dependent on the plant or lower animal source consumed if formed endogenously in people or pigs......as opposed to nandrolone made in a lab which uses specific plants as the source of the steroid backbone (presumably those rich in this type of structure such as Soy) and has a different C13/C12 ratio as a result of metabolic/chemical pathways within the plants. Pork consumption should result in a endogenous/inconclusive result from the GC/C/IRMS test....which i presume it didn't otherwise this would have been a ATF at worst.

This is what I love about ST. Thank you!
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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [tlc13] [ In reply to ]
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tlc13 wrote:
NAB777 wrote:
Sudden big gains + a positive test usually means one thing


Yep, the simplest is answer is usually the right answer.

New Shoes.
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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [hubcaps] [ In reply to ]
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hubcaps wrote:
Steve Magness just put up this great post:

So... let's go through this quickly. Houlihan tests positive for nandrolone with 5 ng/ml.

They make sure she's not pregnant.

Then because she falls between 2.5 and 15 ng, they run another test (GC/C/IRMS) to see if the nandrolone source is endogenous or exogenous.

The lab says this test showed an exogenous source.

This is where the dispute comes in. Houlihan's team claims it should basically go down the other path of endogenous/inconclusive and ultimately the yellow ATF box.

Why do they claim that?

They claim that she consumed uncastrated boar meat. This is IMPORTANT.

The WADA document states if an athlete ate boar meat and the nandrolone level was below 10, then the GC/C/IRMS test isn't what should be used to determine things, but the "pharmacokinetics of N-19 excretion”

In laymen's terms, boar meat throws off the GC/C/IRMS test to determine endo/exogenous.

So if you ate boar, you don't use that test. Instead, you are supposed to try to determine via looking at the pharmacokinetics of the nandrolone metabolites.

If they go down the pharmacokinetics path, then based on the data/info provided by Houlihan's lawyer, you'd end up in the yellow Atypical finding spot.

Now you can see why boar meat is such an important part. If true, it shifts away from the exogenous test and to an ATF.

The crux of the argument lies in the lab saying it's exogenous/not accepting meat consumption & Houlihan saying meat consumption & should go down other path.

So what?

This is a technical argument based on the procedure.

Houlihan's argument rests on accepting it was boar meat so the GC/C/IRMS (exogenous) test isn't used.

AIU's rests on not being meat-related and thus it's okay to use the GC/C/IRMS test to show its exogenous.

We need to see the full data/reasoned decision to understand more. But, hopefully that brings a touch of clarity on the technical nature of the case and what both sides are arguing.

Nothing to add other than this flowchart is awesome !!!
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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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Insane new development: USATF is letting her compete in the trials.

https://twitter.com/.../1405558324783841283
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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
I know in Canada whenever you make it to the national Team Level in a sport you are handed a guide-book that's as thick as a Bible about all the do's and don'ts if you are an athlete at this level. It outlines VERY clearly all the responsibilities of things like Where-Abouts, TUE's etc . . and goes into great detail about what you eat and consume and how you need to be very careful about just about everything you put in your mouth. So for an athlete or a coach to claim that they don't know what's going on, or they are not sure about something . . . then they have ignored some or all of the information that has been provided to them.

And yet, the Canadian Equestrian Team isn't able to go to the Olympics this year because one of their athletes ingested coca tea while in Peru at the Pan Am games. Surprise, tested positive for cocaine derivative. I mean... come on. Between the chef d'equipe who should've warned the team about this local custom/drink, and the athlete with Olympic dreams who should be super-aware of everything that enters their body, that's just idiotic. What a waste.
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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [jeremyscarroll] [ In reply to ]
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jeremyscarroll wrote:
Insane new development: USATF is letting her compete in the trials.

https://twitter.com/.../1405558324783841283

wha?

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [jeremyscarroll] [ In reply to ]
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jeremyscarroll wrote:
Insane new development: USATF is letting her compete in the trials.

https://twitter.com/.../1405558324783841283

There are 6 pages of discussion of this on LR. Crazy
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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [surroundhound] [ In reply to ]
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And yet, the Canadian Equestrian Team isn't able to go to the Olympics this year because one of their athletes ingested coca tea while in Peru at the Pan Am games. Surprise, tested positive for cocaine derivative. I mean... come on. Between the chef d'equipe who should've warned the team about this local custom/drink, and the athlete with Olympic dreams who should be super-aware of everything that enters their body, that's just idiotic. What a waste.


Like any population of people the population of elite level, world class athletes who compete at this level has the full range of personalities, behavior types and levels of intelligence found in everyone else. I've been around these people frequently my whole life and I can say that I've met and seen all types and the full range. I think there is a tendency to ascribe superior qualities across the board when someone is truly great at one thing - They are one of the best Show Jumpers in the world, thus they must be super intelligent - as an example. As I'm getting at here, it's been my personal experience and from what we see, this is sometimes NOT the case!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [jeremyscarroll] [ In reply to ]
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jeremyscarroll wrote:
Insane new development: USATF is letting her compete in the trials.

https://twitter.com/.../1405558324783841283


"If the Trials were in Philly, the crowd would litter the track with burritos"

I'm not disagreeing here

#fuckaround_findout

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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Des Linden chimes in: What the actual fuck?

https://twitter.com/.../1405579333775855616
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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [jeremyscarroll] [ In reply to ]
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jeremyscarroll wrote:
Insane new development: USATF is letting her compete in the trials.

https://twitter.com/.../1405558324783841283

Right when you're like, yes, World Athletics is taking doping seriously...USATF goes naw fam we don't care race all you want.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: 4yr ban for Shelby Houlihan [jeremyscarroll] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
You can always resolve the outcome later, but you can't re-run a race," CEO Max Siegel said

Has this guy ever run the 1500 or 5000? The presence of Shelby utterly changes the complexion of the race. Doping or innocent, but particularly doping. It ain't a time trial.






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