Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 8:22

Post #76 of 323 (1489 views)

I am sorry if you take my criticism or admonition for a "attack" It's not meant as such

I value this site and the ongoing collective conversation. I've tremendous admiration for what you've done here and with your business endeavors.

Folks often talk about Soldiers fighting for 'Freedom" or "Democracy" and while i agree with that and believe in the oath i swore to the Constitution---what I often thought I was out there defending was the right; the opportunity; the system that would allow someone to rise up and become better. To build a business and make a life. To employ people. To make something that someone wanted. To raise a family and be without fear or want.

Along the way I've valued this forum and its ongoing conversations. And I applaud you for its creation and maintenance. What i see now is a few militants who're skewing things so far that there are no real conversations going on and many folks whose opinions i valued are leaving or have stopped posting. That makes me sad.

You're a smart guy. You can do better

Steve

Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [BarryP] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 8:25

Post #77 of 323 (1484 views)

My knees and back are shot.

To many parachute jumps onto hard runways and long long night marches with heavy ruck. No more running for me. I do row three times a week tho on my C2.

Steve

Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 8:25

Post #78 of 323 (1483 views)

Quote:

Ok, if someone says, "WWII was a crazy bad war. How is that any different from two neighbors shooting at each other over a disagreement?"

That's not analogous to anything she said.

What she did say, however, WAS much more closely analogous to the actual events that took place in the lead up to the Holocaust.

Again, both slowguy and I disagree with her position. I only stated that there is SOME truth to it, but it's not as far apart as 80 million people dead vs 2 people shooting at each other.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [Steve Hawley] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 8:31

Post #79 of 323 (1474 views)

Quote:

What i see now is a few militants who're skewing things so far that there are no real conversations going on and many folks whose opinions i valued are leaving or have stopped posting. That makes me sad.

While this is often true, I don't think it's actually the people you are talking about.

There are a lot of people with strong opinions, and even though many of us may be wrong on occasion, and in some cases maybe even often, but those opinions are generally put forth with good faith arguments, and honest debate.

Then you have trolls, often here just to trigger the libs.

Your problem seems to be with the former, not the latter.

It's not the method that bothers you, but the "team" the person is on.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [BarryP] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 8:33

Post #80 of 323 (1468 views)

No worries.

I just think that her 'analogy' was such a huuuuuge stretch that it made no sense to me.

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Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [Steve Hawley] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 8:34

Post #81 of 323 (1472 views)

Steve Hawley wrote:

I don't "hate" you at all brother of mine

I grew up on the same coast and share many of the same experiences and values. I too went to college--although some would argue mine was not a 'real' college.

You're seeing more and more people dropping out of this forum and our collective conversation because of the militancy of a few here. When you take such a drastic stance as you've done in these last few posts---abandoning all sense of measure--then it just exacerbates the declind of this forum into yet another cesspool of one-sided political drivel

This is a conversation about conversations. I hear you say that things are being pushed too far. You say people are dropping out, there’s militancy, and we’ve abandoned all sense of measure. These are strong words.

When I read slowman’s post, I didn’t come away with a similar feeling. I thought he was saying that it’s time to reflect on our values and write down our 5 or 6 defining rules for ourselves. It seems really reasonable to me— and a good idea for EVERYONE, left or right.

It’s a wonderful idea to write down the parameters I will enforce on myself for my own behavior. It’s responsibility and self-determination. It’s empowering and honorable.

Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [Steve Hawley] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 8:34

Post #82 of 323 (1470 views)

Steve Hawley wrote:

There are plenty of times in our Country's history that are filled with such rancor and division. This is really nothing new for us

Your perpetuating such division with posts such as this just furthers the divide

The divide right now is pretty much a low boil if you look at the history of the US. But it is definitely at a high point of the last 40 years.

From the mid-60's to around 2008 there was a consistent push towards less racial animus. It was very public and very consistent. Racist acts were more and more against social norms and more and more likely to get called out on the spot as despicable. So much so that SCOTUS CJ John Roberts said we were living in a post-racial world. Clearly he was mistaken.

And now we have a certain group of people who are intent on ramping up the racial animus. And give support to those who commit racist acts, normalize the behavior as not only acceptable but correct and complain that they are being unfairly cancelled when in fact they are just facing the consequences of their actions.

It is the people who are doing this that are furthering the divide, not the people who point it out.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [BarryP] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 8:35

Post #83 of 323 (1463 views)

BarryP wrote:

Steve Hawley wrote:

Barry Barry Barry

Go away and set up another straw man to tilt at--or run another fartlek.

Funny, I was going to say the same thing to you.

See? Unity!

''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson

Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 8:37

Post #84 of 323 (1455 views)

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

No worries.

I just think that her 'analogy' was such a huuuuuge stretch that it made no sense to me.

No surprise here. You've openly and repeatedly mocked the concept of understanding people you disagree with. Not sure why anyone would expect this to be the exception.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [j p o] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 8:42

Post #85 of 323 (1449 views)

We've had physical fights on the floor of the US Congress. When charitable historical records say the fight eventually dissolved into laughter it was only because a Wisconsin representative tried to bowie knife William Barksdale (from Mississippi) but failed when he seized his hair to knife him on the floor of Congress but found Barksdale's hair to be not but a toupe!?

I will continue to decry the state of this forum and those that have chosen to leave it do to the militancy of a few extremists here.

and Dan's countenance of those few.

Steve

Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [slowguy] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 8:47

Post #86 of 323 (1441 views)

slowguy wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

No worries.

I just think that her 'analogy' was such a huuuuuge stretch that it made no sense to me.

No surprise here. You've openly and repeatedly mocked the concept of understanding people you disagree with. Not sure why anyone would expect this to be the exception.

People in glass houses ...

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Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [Steve Hawley] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 8:59

Post #87 of 323 (1427 views)

Steve Hawley wrote:

We've had physical fights on the floor of the US Congress. When charitable historical records say the fight eventually dissolved into laughter it was only because a Wisconsin representative tried to bowie knife William Barksdale (from Mississippi) but failed when he seized his hair to knife him on the floor of Congress but found Barksdale's hair to be not but a toupe!?

I will continue to decry the state of this forum and those that have chosen to leave it do to the militancy of a few extremists here.

and Dan's countenance of those few.

It’s telling that you didn’t address the substance of j p o’s post, but instead told an old anecdote and then stated that you’ll carry on your (misplaced) whining.

You have shown us all that you are purely tribal, which makes it all the more ironic when you decry divisions and call for better discourse.

You claim to be a defender of the constitution, and yet you have been silent for months, nay years, as your tribe commits acts contrary to it.

Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 9:01

Post #88 of 323 (1425 views)

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

slowguy wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

No worries.

I just think that her 'analogy' was such a huuuuuge stretch that it made no sense to me.

No surprise here. You've openly and repeatedly mocked the concept of understanding people you disagree with. Not sure why anyone would expect this to be the exception.

People in glass houses ...

It's pretty clear you don't understand what that phrase means or refers to.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [j p o] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 9:01

Post #89 of 323 (1423 views)

j p o wrote:

From the mid-60's to around 2008 there was a consistent push towards less racial animus. It was very public and very consistent. Racist acts were more and more against social norms and more and more likely to get called out on the spot as despicable. So much so that SCOTUS CJ John Roberts said we were living in a post-racial world. Clearly he was mistaken.

This is a compelling post. Not being a person of color, I maybe might have somewhat agreed in the early 2000s with this opinion (although the two W. Bush presidential terms were pretty tumultuous in terms of how people reacted to his incompetent foreign policy moves.)

But I wonder if the reality was that there was only a tiny, tiny push to less racial animus.

And maybe what changed approx in 2008 was that first, yes, we got a black president.

But we also had a change of technology where more and more people had powerful video cameras in their pockets and then those people had the ability to share those videos widely. And that showed all of us (who were not people of color) that in actuality our society was indeed still very vicious to non-white people, and that was a disturbing eye-opening moment for both the left and the right.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 9:03

Post #90 of 323 (1422 views)

Shouldn't you be skiing in Gestaad or sailing the Caribean in a yacht---while telling us lesser folks how to act, live and vote?

* I hear there's a partial eclipse of the sun up in Nova Scotia!?

Steve

Last edited by: Steve Hawley: Feb 26, 21 9:07

Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [slowguy] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 9:05

Post #91 of 323 (1435 views)

slowguy wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

slowguy wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

No worries.

I just think that her 'analogy' was such a huuuuuge stretch that it made no sense to me.

No surprise here. You've openly and repeatedly mocked the concept of understanding people you disagree with. Not sure why anyone would expect this to be the exception.

People in glass houses ...

It's pretty clear you don't understand what that phrase means or refers to.

Yup, clearly.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Feb 26, 21 9:07

Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [Steve Hawley] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 9:48

Post #92 of 323 (1414 views)

Steve Hawley wrote:

Shouldn't you be skiing in Gestaad or sailing the Caribean in a yacht---while telling us lesser folks how to act, live and vote?

* I hear there's a partial eclipse of the sun up in Nova Scotia!?

Once again, you don’t address the issues.

Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 10:03

Post #93 of 323 (1403 views)

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

slowguy wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

slowguy wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

No worries.

I just think that her 'analogy' was such a huuuuuge stretch that it made no sense to me.

No surprise here. You've openly and repeatedly mocked the concept of understanding people you disagree with. Not sure why anyone would expect this to be the exception.

People in glass houses ...

It's pretty clear you don't understand what that phrase means or refers to.

Yup, clearly.

I have to hand it to you,...you are the LR king of tangential non sequiturs.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [Steve Hawley] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 10:06

Post #94 of 323 (1401 views)

Quote:

I will continue to decry the state of this forum and those that have chosen to leave it do to the militancy of a few extremists here.

They left because they were snowflakes who could dish it out but couldn't take it.

This thread is a great example. Your big gripe is that slowman laid out facts about evangelicals hypocritically hitching their wagon to Trump and the rightwing radio hate machine.

Golly. You'd think he changed his winter coffee cup and wished you a happy holidays.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [j p o] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 11:33

Post #95 of 323 (1355 views)

j p o wrote:

From the mid-60's to around 2008 there was a consistent push towards less racial animus. It was very public and very consistent. Racist acts were more and more against social norms and more and more likely to get called out on the spot as despicable. So much so that SCOTUS CJ John Roberts said we were living in a post-racial world. Clearly he was mistaken.

And now we have a certain group of people who are intent on ramping up the racial animus. And give support to those who commit racist acts, normalize the behavior as not only acceptable but correct and complain that they are being unfairly cancelled when in fact they are just facing the consequences of their actions.

It is the people who are doing this that are furthering the divide, not the people who point it out.

I see it the exact same way. There was a time when being racist was something to obscure. Now it is a badge of honor.

Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [CallMeMaybe] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 13:11

Post #96 of 323 (1325 views)

CallMeMaybe wrote:

Vocabulary and word choice. I’ve been thinking about the meanings of words and phrases.

I was talking with someone who said black people cannot be reasonably expected to continue to put up with disrespect. I understood his use of “disrespect” to be synonymous with racism, white supremacy, violation of human dignity, inequality, It was a serious conversation so I gave the word “disrespect “ a very serious meaning.

I hear complaints about hyper-aggressive, woke, cancel culture, and I wonder if this feeling of being pushed too far is related in some way to vocabulary and word choice. I wonder if white men were a little more loosey-goosey as they interpret and translate messages about this subject, would they be more amenable to the core concepts? Would there be more common ground?

Do certain words and phrases jar you? Does reading about “white supremacy math” bug you? Does the phrase “math teaching styles that are disrespectful to human dignity” bug you? They are the same thing.

I have not been particularly bothered by the phrase “defund the police” because I understand it to mean reallocating resources and duties for nonpolice work away from police to people who should have the work and resources. It doesn’t seem objectionable, but I know plenty of people do find it objectionable. Why do they object?

How comfortable are you letting someone else define a word or phrase? (“Excuse me, I’m speaking.”)

Specifically with regards to “white supremacy math” - what I find objectionable is that the people charged with teaching kids how to take derivatives and find square roots, instead feel that they can promulgate their political views in a public school setting (which is supposed to be apolitical in theory).

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 13:21

Post #97 of 323 (1313 views)

alex_korr wrote:

CallMeMaybe wrote:

Vocabulary and word choice. I’ve been thinking about the meanings of words and phrases.

I was talking with someone who said black people cannot be reasonably expected to continue to put up with disrespect. I understood his use of “disrespect” to be synonymous with racism, white supremacy, violation of human dignity, inequality, It was a serious conversation so I gave the word “disrespect “ a very serious meaning.

I hear complaints about hyper-aggressive, woke, cancel culture, and I wonder if this feeling of being pushed too far is related in some way to vocabulary and word choice. I wonder if white men were a little more loosey-goosey as they interpret and translate messages about this subject, would they be more amenable to the core concepts? Would there be more common ground?

Do certain words and phrases jar you? Does reading about “white supremacy math” bug you? Does the phrase “math teaching styles that are disrespectful to human dignity” bug you? They are the same thing.

I have not been particularly bothered by the phrase “defund the police” because I understand it to mean reallocating resources and duties for nonpolice work away from police to people who should have the work and resources. It doesn’t seem objectionable, but I know plenty of people do find it objectionable. Why do they object?

How comfortable are you letting someone else define a word or phrase? (“Excuse me, I’m speaking.”)

Specifically with regards to “white supremacy math” - what I find objectionable is that the people charged with teaching kids how to take derivatives and find square roots, instead feel that they can promulgate their political views in a public school setting (which is supposed to be apolitical in theory).

Are you saying that teaching math in a way that is respectful to human dignity is a political view? That just seems like a basic job requirement for any teacher.

Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 13:22

Post #98 of 323 (1310 views)

alex_korr wrote:

CallMeMaybe wrote:

Vocabulary and word choice. I’ve been thinking about the meanings of words and phrases.

I was talking with someone who said black people cannot be reasonably expected to continue to put up with disrespect. I understood his use of “disrespect” to be synonymous with racism, white supremacy, violation of human dignity, inequality, It was a serious conversation so I gave the word “disrespect “ a very serious meaning.

I hear complaints about hyper-aggressive, woke, cancel culture, and I wonder if this feeling of being pushed too far is related in some way to vocabulary and word choice. I wonder if white men were a little more loosey-goosey as they interpret and translate messages about this subject, would they be more amenable to the core concepts? Would there be more common ground?

Do certain words and phrases jar you? Does reading about “white supremacy math” bug you? Does the phrase “math teaching styles that are disrespectful to human dignity” bug you? They are the same thing.

I have not been particularly bothered by the phrase “defund the police” because I understand it to mean reallocating resources and duties for nonpolice work away from police to people who should have the work and resources. It doesn’t seem objectionable, but I know plenty of people do find it objectionable. Why do they object?

How comfortable are you letting someone else define a word or phrase? (“Excuse me, I’m speaking.”)

Specifically with regards to “white supremacy math” - what I find objectionable is that the people charged with teaching kids how to take derivatives and find square roots, instead feel that they can promulgate their political views in a public school setting (which is supposed to be apolitical in theory).

There is a fundamental problem with your view here. You are saying that addressing biases in education is promulgating some political view. But if you believe that is what is happening, then not addressing them (what you are proposing) is simply promulgating a different political view.

So you appear to actually support political views in school, as long as they are ones you agree with.

Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [CallMeMaybe] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 13:38

Post #99 of 323 (1297 views)

CallMeMaybe wrote:

alex_korr wrote:

CallMeMaybe wrote:

Vocabulary and word choice. I’ve been thinking about the meanings of words and phrases.

I was talking with someone who said black people cannot be reasonably expected to continue to put up with disrespect. I understood his use of “disrespect” to be synonymous with racism, white supremacy, violation of human dignity, inequality, It was a serious conversation so I gave the word “disrespect “ a very serious meaning.

I hear complaints about hyper-aggressive, woke, cancel culture, and I wonder if this feeling of being pushed too far is related in some way to vocabulary and word choice. I wonder if white men were a little more loosey-goosey as they interpret and translate messages about this subject, would they be more amenable to the core concepts? Would there be more common ground?

Do certain words and phrases jar you? Does reading about “white supremacy math” bug you? Does the phrase “math teaching styles that are disrespectful to human dignity” bug you? They are the same thing.

I have not been particularly bothered by the phrase “defund the police” because I understand it to mean reallocating resources and duties for nonpolice work away from police to people who should have the work and resources. It doesn’t seem objectionable, but I know plenty of people do find it objectionable. Why do they object?

How comfortable are you letting someone else define a word or phrase? (“Excuse me, I’m speaking.”)

Specifically with regards to “white supremacy math” - what I find objectionable is that the people charged with teaching kids how to take derivatives and find square roots, instead feel that they can promulgate their political views in a public school setting (which is supposed to be apolitical in theory).

Are you saying that teaching math in a way that is respectful to human dignity is a political view? That just seems like a basic job requirement for any teacher.

I got my math degree from UCLA in 1997. I did not feel that my human dignity was disrespected. I don't know anyone from my cohort who felt disrespected, although plenty of us were challenged by having to take 2 years of linear algebra.

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

Re: “Wokeness & cancel culture” vs “Excuse me, I’m speaking” [chaparral] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 21 13:48

Post #100 of 323 (1285 views)

chaparral wrote:

alex_korr wrote:

CallMeMaybe wrote:

Vocabulary and word choice. I’ve been thinking about the meanings of words and phrases.

I was talking with someone who said black people cannot be reasonably expected to continue to put up with disrespect. I understood his use of “disrespect” to be synonymous with racism, white supremacy, violation of human dignity, inequality, It was a serious conversation so I gave the word “disrespect “ a very serious meaning.

I hear complaints about hyper-aggressive, woke, cancel culture, and I wonder if this feeling of being pushed too far is related in some way to vocabulary and word choice. I wonder if white men were a little more loosey-goosey as they interpret and translate messages about this subject, would they be more amenable to the core concepts? Would there be more common ground?

Do certain words and phrases jar you? Does reading about “white supremacy math” bug you? Does the phrase “math teaching styles that are disrespectful to human dignity” bug you? They are the same thing.

I have not been particularly bothered by the phrase “defund the police” because I understand it to mean reallocating resources and duties for nonpolice work away from police to people who should have the work and resources. It doesn’t seem objectionable, but I know plenty of people do find it objectionable. Why do they object?

How comfortable are you letting someone else define a word or phrase? (“Excuse me, I’m speaking.”)

Specifically with regards to “white supremacy math” - what I find objectionable is that the people charged with teaching kids how to take derivatives and find square roots, instead feel that they can promulgate their political views in a public school setting (which is supposed to be apolitical in theory).

There is a fundamental problem with your view here. You are saying that addressing biases in education is promulgating some political view. But if you believe that is what is happening, then not addressing them (what you are proposing) is simply promulgating a different political view.

So you appear to actually support political views in school, as long as they are ones you agree with.

Perhaps I don't believe that there are material biases? At least neither myself nor my spouse or my kids have really noticed them through our combined 60+ years or so of going through schooling.

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

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