For the umpteenth time..

It matters, if you are one of those who goes out and gets involved in Formula SAE or other types of engineering things. The bigger 4yr programs will have more of those opportunities and networking. Coming in 2yrs later, still can take advantage of it just a bit harder, as others have 2yr of experience.

But if your just going to class and working and hoping to get a degree, it matters far less.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

I don't agree that it matters. Maybe for getting your first job out of school, but beyond that, it doesn't matter. Actually, knowing someone who can get you an opportunity to interview is more important. But I am biased. I went into a 4-year school at the junior level and didn't participate in any clubs.

Just last week I went to an engineering luncheon to hear a speaker talk about a local highway and mingled with about half a dozen other professionals from the industry. No one cared or even asked what schools I attended. Nor did they ask what level of education I have. They asked about what types of projects I work on and what kind of relevant experience I had in the engineering industry so they could assess whether I could be of use to them at some point in the future. My business card has Newduguy, P.E. on it, I have a breadth of experience, and dozens of projects under my belt. That's what seems to matter most. At least in my industry.

I don't know what SAE is. I do know that if you want to work for mckinsey oxbridge is a good place to start. If you want to work for a small consultancy not so much.

In the long run, four year degree trumps two and I suspect that the work of the shorter programs will get scarcer over time.

I think you've just said what I said

late to the party

1. yes
2. yes.....degree + Ph.D
3. changes on a daily basis

in the 30+ years since finishing college (university in UK) I've had constant mentally challenging and well paid work in the pharma industry; seen a lot of the world, worked and lived in 2 countries, been involved with projects that genuinely were groundbreaking and made the world a better place.......but i still got envious of my friend from school who, in his late 40s, was the postman in the little mining village (with no coal mine anymore) where i grew up when he talked about watching his kids play cricket on the same field we played on 40 years ago.

if i had to do it all again i have no clue what i would change, but i would be a whole lot cooler.

"Formula SAE" is a design competition where undergraduate student teams work to budget, design and race motorcycle engined open-wheel cars.
There are other similar team challenges with different focus. My son is on his university's solar car team. Same idea, except to design a battery powered electric car whose sole energy source for the duration of the competition is the sun.

The good thing about these extracurricular competitions is that they teach real world problem solving and teamwork and generally a new graduate that has meaningfully participated on one of these teams can have as much as a year's worth of functional advantage on a four-year strictly academic undergrad program.

Another thing that has equal or better value (and is a thing to look for in a four-year school) is to see if they support a student co-op or internship program. This has the advantage where a student gets gainful employment before graduating, gets some good real world experience, and possibly ends up with a permanent job offer before they even start their final year of undergraduate studies (still pending on actually doing that year of school, obviously).

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Less is more.

Well, you kind of made my point, If you had been involved in those engineering things, you would have already met those people, they would have helped you along, to a better first job (potentially).

Of course the further you get from school the less it matters. The bigger/better schools typically have better ties to industry and have more potential for their kids to be involved BEFORE they graduate. I agree, the education is basically the same, the difference is in the opportunities offered. For 80 maybe 90% of the kids it doesn't matter. But for that 10 or 20% who are going to do more than just go to classes, it can make a very big difference.

30+ yrs ago, the Univ I ended up at for my last 2 yrs was one of the best Automotive N&V univ. I ended up teaching N&V to Ford engineers my last year there. I got a job offer from GM while interning there, I got the intern job cause kids in the classes ahead of me working there knew me. If I had stayed at my previous Univ, I am sure I would have landed a job in the Auto industry but not my dream job that 30yrs on I am basically still doing.

Those Formula SAE and other type programs become HUGE networking opportunities and job offers do come from them. For everyone no.

Another example, my Daughter right now is in engineering at a fairly well known engineering and medical school. This summer (between Soph and Junior yr) she is doing medical research on live animals and they think she will have a saleable patent from the work and a published research paper.. That opportunity would not have happened, at Univ of Toledo. (where my boss got his engineering deg from). That said, most kids are not in that 10% I sure has hell was not when I started Univ. and really fell into it my Junior yr as I found I liked N&V.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Society of Automotive Engineers. They have a few different "competitions" for universities to compete in, Baja buggie races, EV cars etc.. Just using as an example of industry working with certain universities, to provide hands on engineering work for kids. I think the Sunracer program is still going on, that was a huge one, yrs ago. Build a solar powered car to race across the country. I know the civil engineering society does the Concrete Canoe competitions.

Yeah I think we agree.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

3 yes. I totally support the idea of college education because of its numerous benefits. I had to combine work and sudy to pay my loans, and had to buy an essay from time to time to get good grades. But that situation taught me how to overcome all obstacles.

College is a scam. They've increased my tuition every single year but have made no improvements to make sense of the rate increase. As an engineer, I have to pay substantially more tuition to subsidize people who decided to get degrees in underwater basket weaving.

I'm glad I'm 21 and already a house in debt.

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Gone with the wind

Instagram: palmtreestriathlon

Really, all undergrads don't pay the same tuition rate? Never heard of that. Usually I think there is an undergrad and higher grad rate.

The STEM majors have to pay a certain percentage more in tuition than the liberal arts majors. When I asked they say it's because of "equipment", when it's been long paid for by this point.

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Gone with the wind

Instagram: palmtreestriathlon

And you will, in theory at least, make significantly more than the basket weavers. It's not a scam.

There is a reason that HBS, stanford, uni of Chicago etc charge what they do. It's selective. There are no basket weavers and in theory their students will go on to make great money if not do great things.

Secondly, if you're smart enough to do engineering, you're smart enough to get a job and clear your debt in 4-5 years.

All things here are true. I've always had a hard time seeing into the future and doing long-term goal setting and staying consistent. That's one of the things that drew me to Ironman was to work on that skill so that when I graduate I can stay dedicated to paying the debt off as quickly as possible without living like a shut-in with my parents until I'm 35.

In reality, I still don't think that college needs to be as expensive as it is. While I'm getting a worthwhile degree, a lot of people aren't, and an entire generation is fucked with debt. It's really hard to take risks in your career path when you've got all those K's hanging around your neck

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Gone with the wind

Instagram: palmtreestriathlon

How much do you think it would cost if all those "worthless" degree students weren't there paying tuition too?

I say this as a European.

If I were a smart, financially motivated US HS student, I'd apply to the best schools in Europe and go there.

Oxford and Cambridge cost you 15k a year intuition, 8k in accom and then spending money.

What's the US cost?

If I went to school in the US and I had a serious technical degree, I'd be looking at an overseas job for 5 years to clear debt and trouser cash.

I'm guessing my current tuition in Europe is amongst the most expensive. 45k US per annum. It is, in theory, a rounding error on the long term pay back......... Though that's a theory I'm testing.

If you are a smart engineering grad. I mean really smart, I'd consider a European masters for a year, a good school, eat the cost and then go work. UCL, Manchester, oxbridge, loads of French schools have amazing English Post grad quals

Then again, what do I know.

Yes, Yes, & Yes. It was great in my case, but I think it's important not to confuse schooling with education. A lot of the interpersonal and organizational skills I'm now using I picked up from reading books over the years. Never stop learning.

Hahaha.

Oxford undergrad tuition only for a US student is £30K, $45Kish, so roughly on par with US schools. If you are a US student smart enough to go to oxford, you’re probably offered a full ride somewhere (granted not at the caliber of Oxford or an Ivy)

ETA - US masters+ in engineering are almost always free + stipend.

Good point. I was thinking of eu uk fees

Still. There are European universities offering free tuition to overseas students

 
For US HS grads thinking of university in the UK, are there entrance exams required? Thinking about the various A-level and O-level exams? And is there a standardized exam used by non-UK schools? I can't imagine the SAT or ACT are used outside the US.

(thinking about possibilities for my daughter, rising Junior).

They'd accept a transcript and conversion of grades. The same way they accept the Bacc, French or international

You'd put sat, act and GPA on your ucas application

Please do not knock the University of Toledo.... Your daughter may not have had the medical research opportunity but she would have had a huge leg up in working for Zimmer/Biomet or any number of medical device/research firms. This is in addition to any of the research opportunities with the university.

I say this is a MechE graduate of UT. Discussing student load debt most people that did not live on campus freshmen/sophomore year and landed any co-op graduated with minimal student debt. (this assumes they did not decide to buy a motor cycle, climbing gear, or any number of stupid things friends of mine and I did. Through my co-ops I got to live in IN, CO, and NV almost completely paid for by my co-op company. When I was in NV I got trained for my first full time job, worked for my current employer as a contractor all the while I traveled the western United States. I had my full time post graduation job working on an hourly basis before I even had my degree in hand.

Almost everyone I knew in school had no problem finding a job if they did not get hired by their co-op company (2008-2010 time frame).

1. Yes
2. No- bounced around a bit location and major wise
3. Wouldn't trade it for anything. I like where I am at now, and I learned so much along the way (in and outside of school).

My boss went to Univ. of Toledo. But you make my point. UT apperently works with those companies you mentioned. Being in N&V I much more familiar with that area then the medical area. But universities (bigger ones or specialized smaller ones) will work with companies and yes there students have a leg up there.

As for my comparison. Even the leg up in those 2 companies can not compare with going to a school for undergrade that has resources of 4 major hospital networks, 2 that do research, and all the opportunities that provides. I was thinking of this thread as Covid was spreading and schools were closing and re-working classes and graduation. Larger more well endowed Universities had more options. My daughter at Case transitioned fairly smoothly to online. They held all their graduations virtually, and by most accounts it was very successful. My other daughter at Cent. Mich. things were not so smooth, still has not had a graduation ceremony, and unclear what if anything the Univ is doing at this point.

I went to a small Univ. Mich. Tech Univ. Yes I landed a summer job with my dream company Boeing and ended up working at my dream job with GM (almost 30yrs later still there). But to think all universities provide the same thing, and same opportunities, is simply not true.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Yes, yes and hell yes.

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DISH is how we do it.

At which schools? Aside from "lab fees" or somethings like that I don't recall my engineering degree costing more than others...but I was at a primarily engineering school and this was almost 15 years ago. Your debt burden to obtain the same education is now likely significantly more than what mine was. In the overall scheme of things I've paid for out of my own pocket, college tuition doesn't crack the top 5.