So why would it be so bad to draw a penalty if it would be advantageous to the overall outcome? //

Ya, and then you could dope to the gills, get away with it as long as possible, and if caught, just serve your two year penalty. That would be advantageous to your outcome too, just ask Kevin Moats. He went for your double strategy here, but of course got caught on both, but somehow still holds records at ironman while drafting and doping, so maybe a great deal for you!!!

It’s why I’ve said for a long time drafting penalties need to be longer.

There are two camps. Camp one is triathlon is like golf. Camp two is triathlon is like every other sport, it’s only a penalty if you get caught and there is a penalty for it.

Since every governing body in the sport treats it like camp two, it’s to expected that more and more athletes are.

If you ain’t cheating, you ain’t trying.

It all depends on how long you can draft before the ref catches you. I think it would be pretty hard to rack up anywhere close to 15 minutes in gains from drafting in an ironman, barring the unusual situation from TX last year where you could sit in a giant peleton for the entire race.

Also, you would have to be totally cool with being hated by other athletes. Even if this could be an advantageous strategy, it is not part of our culture and people will not be friends with you. They will start to squirt water bottles over their shoulders at you. Yell at you. Just slow down and force you to pass (I did this to a guy once in the last 15 miles of IMLOU and I just rode behind him at legal distance to T2 after which he was toast and dropped him in the first 60 seconds of the run).

---

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

It arguably goes against the spirit of the game moreso than most penalties in team ball sports, since the penalties can be designed to make for interesting risk/reward or compromise decisions and grow into a natural part of the game. Intentional drafting in purportedly non-draft events is basically just cheating; it's less like taking a pass interference penalty and more like covering your hands in stickum.

The logic makes sense. If you look at it objectively, multiply the risk of getting caught (virtually nil) by the penalty (minor) and an immoral, cheating racer should conclude that drafting makes sense.

As Monty says, doping's the same.

It's still wrong. IMO.

Dev Paul always had the best solution. Make the penalty a 1K run loop for each drafting penalty. Still not likely to get caught, but at least the penalty has some sting to it, as opposed to sitting in the shade for 5 minutes

Sure, and you might not even get a single penalty the entire time...on the other hand, if you drafted the entire course, you might pick up 10 penalties. That aside, I think triathlon is more golf-like than other sports in the sense that athletes are expected to engage in some self-regulation....

They do this at Challenge Roth. Last year there were people jeering at those running the penalty KM. It was fantastic. Oh and they stuck that penalty run right around mile 18 so you hit it when you were hurting and nearly at the end.

That's even better

This.

---

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

Quoting for like.

Under existing rules, you can't vilify someone for using the existing rules as an advantage. You can't throw dope into that equation because the dope is a DQ and removal of prior results. Drafting once, as said, is a 5min shade sit.

I think they should update it and even if they can't do a run loop penalty........have a treadmill setup where you have to do 1km. If you're waiting in line for your turn on the treadmill............so bad so sad.

has to be said, the first year they introduced the 'sin bin' at kona (-mid/late 90s), both the men's and women's winners sat penalties. (luc and paula, i think).

there was a lot of debate at that time whether a 3-minute cooler might make you net faster in the run. luc was pacing like a caged tiger but paula was wise - she stretched, took in some fluids, and did some deep breathing.

'

---

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

A "lap of shame." I love it. Should put some "Tough Mudder" obstacles in it, too.

---

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

This reminds me of the story (urban legend?) of the increases in penalties at the HOCR for buoys and arches. Cut just the buoys to save the most time, and overcome the respective penalties--including arch violations--but still come out ahead of the penalty deficit. Get 2' in violations, but save 2:15 in time, and you win by A LOT.

We can thank the old Dartmouth LM coach, Dick Grossman, for this one. ;-)

It wasn't cheating to intentionally cut the course even before the rules were changed; you just had to out-race your penalties.
After the rules change, even one missed buoy can cost a place (or 3 for me...).

---

no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here

Actually solid point on this. A local sprint I was in, some lady drafted off my wheel like 2 feet behind me. We were first wave and she was suckin wheel and hardly anyone out in front - definitely enough to have space. I looked back and said what the fuck and she like waved at me and didnt back off, so I pulled left so she could just pull up and pass right and she sat there. So I hammered and burned some matches. She passes me a bit later suckin wheel of 2 other really fast bikers...she kept getting dropped after the turnaround and I ended up passing her again. She ended up finishing 3rd overall woman. She had "Kona" tri suit shorts and such. Just a shake my head and quietly think "you dont deserve that".



but back to devils advocate! No what is morally right and wrong here.

It is exactly what happened at Ironman Australia when they introduced the sin bin the in '90s and Ironman Canada followed suit.The cost of time in the sin bin was an acceptable risk for huge overall time savings.It was simple,draft until you got your warning and then back off.

kind of a false analogy.

There are "fouls" in many sports and drafting is a "foul".

Nobody says the left tackle was "cheating" when he got called for holding, it's just considered part of the game. Let's be honest, it is a very common strategy in basketball to intentionally foul late in the game to stop the clock and "increase your probability of winning". Nobody calls this cheating, it's part of the game.

So to the originally posters point, it is all about perception. As a group, a lot of triathletes are very whinny, overly focused on a bunch of rules and tend to label penalties or fouls as "cheating", but that is just not how most other sports handle it. If triathlon was approached like hockey, basketball or football, position or drafting penalties would just be whatever, its how the game is played. Effectively the sport makes penalties kind of a joke because of general lack of enforcement, so to me it is not illogical to just push the envelope and just take the penalty and if you happen to get caught if there is going to be a complete lack of officiating.

Of course everyone is entitled to compete by their own code and I am sure there are football and basketball players who never intentionally commit penalties and likewise I think it's great if people want to have their own personal code of honor/sportsmanship and never intentionally draft. However, strictly in the sense of is the likely payoff for drafting greater than the penalty, I would say yes.

kind of a false analogy. //

No, I think the false analogy here is comparing a team sport minor regular foul, with an individual sports most flagrant and morally abusive foul(if intentional), outside of cutting the course. More comparable would be moving the ball from behind a tree in golf, which was blocking the shot to the green. Most likely done, but considered a big no no, even though you can do it a lose some strokes.

How about pulling ankles on the swim/intentionally trying to block someone on the bike? Or Sabotaging other athletes in general? I guess you could get away with a lot of it, but would it be ok?

Say that you know that the top guy in your AG is a bad swimmer. Would it be ok for a good swimmer (ex water polo/under water rugby player?) to make the first part of said AG´ers race completely miserable, in an attempt to have him drop out? I haven't hear of any AG`er getting DQ`ed yet and I have seen some pretty nasty behaviour around buoys. How about waiting until he leaves T1, then open the valves on both front and rear wheel to make him believe he has a double flat? Push him off the road while on the bike? Put a stick in his wheels to have him crash?

You can get away with a lot as an AG`er. Both in Italy and Spain the IM branded races looked more like a grand fondo than a non draft bike leg.

But even though you don't get caught, you know that you cheated. In my book that's bad enough

I'd just have the penalty loop served on the spot. In bike shoes. That would put some sting back into it and be great entertainment for the spectators.

That’s not true. In team sports, you are competing on a field directly against each other. So you can foul if you want, but the other team or player can counter.
In sports where you’re competing but in no direct contact with the other competitors, you don’t get that chance. The best way to have a fair competition is for everyone to follow the rules. That’s why Golf is such a stickler with rules. Your main competition can be 9 holes in front of you, same as triathlon. If it were boxing, and you want to punch below the belt for strategy, go for it.

Wide is the road, and great is the temptation that leads to the path of cheating.

You can’t draft in your sprints? Here in Hong Kong all the sprints are draft legal

Those wires hanging down that run a low voltage electrical current and give you a little zap. They could set up bleachers beside the obstacle, and charge admission (and let's face it, WTC probably would have it as a "Special VIP" area)

It's wrong because it's cheating. If you're the type of person who would cheat to give yourself an unfair advantage than you and i just have a differing opinion on what it means to race with integrity and respect for our sport and fellow competitors. Every time you look up at the bib and finishers medal hanging on you wall you'll know that you cheated to earn it. If you're ok with that than go for it.