http://www.endurancetriathletes.com/sipe.html
Someone posted this in one of the last threads about swim deaths.

Overall, I think that if something bad happens in a body of water your odds of survival go way down.

Most likely shock. Most swim deaths happen soon after the start. Contrary to cycling and running, most people do not train for the swim in the same conditions they race. You have colder water, pressure from the wetsuit wich can be constricting, visual stimuli and references that you're not used to, people around bumping into you, it's the start of the race and you're pumped and nervous. For some people, that is too much. Not sure we can find this stat but what is the death rate for indoor swim legs? I bet it's much lower.

I am no expert and probably wrong, but here is my take.

When you have a medical incident on the bike or run, you land on the ground. I guess the bike could even be a serious crash but people probably have at least a few seconds to react when a medical situation occurs, so the majority that happen on the bike they probably have time to slow down or even dismounting before collapsnig.

When you have a medical incident in a body of water, you immediately go under, and if no one sees it, you drown.

My other take is just the sheer # of athletes that are open water swimming throughout the year. Add up all triathlon and swim events, add up the total athletes and the average they spend in the water. That is going to total an incredible amount of hours exposed to water. Probably millions. So I always just figured that with those kind of numbers, the odds are unavoidable, a very, very, very small % will have a medical incident. When you take a very, very, very small % from millions you are left with dozens.

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"If it costs you 30 minutes at Maryland so what" -dwreal

Hey Matt, since this is still midway on the front page here, you might get some answers on this current thread. And if you look at dan's posts, he links over a 1/2 dozen articles the have been written here on the subject too...

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...can_do%3F__P6948087/

Define your terms...how many is "so many?" If one considers the tens of thousands who participate in the sport in the US, the number is low.
Why so many gun deaths? Why so many airline deaths? Why so many choking deaths?

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#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

Why so many deaths of people playing Lawn Bowls?

People die dude

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My guess - first, you go from zero to GO GO GO and that probably contributes to issues, couple that with the fact that even the fastest lifeguard response is going to take a while you get people drowning after having a cardiac episode.

That said, it can happen any time. I told the story here before of being right there when a guy clutched his chest and went down on the run course at Placid 70.3 last year. The guy had 4 people on him within seconds of hitting the pavement, and CPR saved him. The key here is he was tended to within seconds, whereas a guy having a problem in the swim very well may not be noticed at all, especially in time.

this ^

Think about it:
- If you are running and get in trouble you stop, the load comes off your heart, and you can call for help.
- If you are biking and get in trouble you stop, the load comes off your heart, and you can call for help.

- If you are swimming and get in trouble, you have to keep working to not drown, most if not more load is placed on the heart, and you can't really call for help.

I doubt if there is a higher occurrence of an AMI in swimming than in other similar activities or sports, its just that the out come of even a minor event (if there is such a thing) is poor.

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

That is an interesting observation. They happen after the start, not towards the end. That points to the suddenness of the start in unfamiliar conditions being a major factor.

I recently did a cold water tri mass start and even though I've done tons of them, I could totally see things getting out of control. It wasn't a huge tri, I'm an excellent swimmer, and it was an Xterra, so I figured I'd place myself up towards the front middle because it would be more "casual". The start was insane and even though I finished 3rd or 4th out of the water overall, I spend the first few minutes getting shoved, pushed under, and basically fighting a whole bunch of people around me who all thought they were Phelps or something. The water was mid-50s and I could feel the pressure building up in my neck against the wetsuit as I was having to swim as hard as I could to try to survive the stupidity that was going on around me. I thought to myself "oh shit, this is how it happens. This is how people die during the swim." Luckily, I had warmed up by swimming a few minutes before the start. If I hadn't taken the edge off, I could totally see a different outcome. After the first few minutes of start drama was over and people fell off the pace, I was swimming fine and finished great. I talked with another guy as we came up the ramp to T1 asking WTF was all that b.s. about.

The most dangerous thing in the water is other people. I'm starting on the outside edge from every race here out after that fiasco.

I started doing this after my first tri back in 1984. Outside edge, on what will be the outside of the first turn buoy. And I advise everyone I talk to about tri swims to do the same.

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Some are born to move the world to live their fantasies...

https://triomultisport.com/
http://www.mjolnircycles.com/

I have the same idea but choose the inside edge. I'm fast enough in the water but don't like to sprint out too fast. Keeping a tempo pace at first off to the side and away from the flailing macho dudes allows me to motor past most of them before the first buoy. I'm usually full gas by then and have some room to work.

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"They know f_ck-all over at Slowtwitch"
- Lionel Sanders

This has some credibility too
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...articles/PMC5117085/
“Conclusions

LVH—a marker of SIPO susceptibility—was present in a greater than the expected proportion of triathletes who died during the swim portion. We propose that IPO may be a significant aetiology of death during the swimming phase in triathletes. The importance of testing for LVH in triathletes as a predictor of adverse outcomes should be explored further.”
SIPO = Swimming induced pulmonary oedema
LVH = left ventricular hypertrophy

I always go easy on the swim. I'm an older athlete, but I always go easy. No need to get all wound up, it's a long day. Slow, steady, remaining as calm as possible until I have some elbow room to get into a rhythm. I can always hammer on the bike or run (when it's generally safer to do so)...

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"The first virtue in a soldier is endurance of fatigue; courage is only the second virtue."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

1. Vertical to horizontal
2. Usually, warmer to cooler very quickly
3. Lack of open water swimming experience
4. Lack of warm-up . . . sudden go!
5. Race anxiety
6. Of course, latent issue exacerbated by the above

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

I'm an older (bloody old) competitor, who's been doing Tri since the early nineties and the incidence of deaths has been a constant for all of that time.

So a little of my experience.
I was a competitive swimmer as a teenager, but I have always disliked the swim portion of a Tri because, really, the two things are not related.
Lane swimming and competition swimming do not prepare you for a mass start, in cold water, wearing a wetsuit.
In the few (this is Canada) non wetsuit swims I have done, I have found it easier once the body contact is reduced.

One of the things I have recommended to people over the years is to play water polo if you want to be a good Tri swimmer.
That helps the anxiety that body contact will cause in many. Good luck finding the opportunity though.
Some, good, Tri swim course instructor/coaches will include a little water polo.

Secondly, warmup.
No one does a warmup of any consequence because most venues don't have the ability to provide it.
Wetsuits change the nature of the swim and no amount of pool swimming prepares you for that.
I have resorted to a run warmup, because that at least ramps your heart up.
Although I know of no study that recommends it.

Over the years on here and in conversation I have found that some people think that the mass start gives them permission to be physically aggressive.
People boasting of their ability to swim "over" the competition. I have been grabbed, punched and dunked during those nearly 30 years of competition.
(although I have never lost a goggle...yet). Try that on a mass run start or bike start and it wouldn't be tolerated.

And there are those who think the race is won or lost in the first 100m (or yards), but don't have the speed, stamina or stroke to go 110.

Add in SIPE, undiagnosed heart conditions, untrained course observers (volunteers) and you have the perfect storm.

Please post the link or reference to one death due to lack of open water swimming experience.

I always have a problem at the start of a race. Everytime I hit the water for whatever reason I cant breathe. I cant even get enough oxygen to make a full revolution in the water. Most races I spend the 1st 200 yards trying to avoid the kayaks asking if im ok. It is so frustrating and I can see how people get in trouble. A couple months ago at IMWI I was able to sneak in the water (left of the start) before the race (got kicked out of the water) but still had the same result at the starting line. Now im signed up for IM St George so wish me luck. I blame it on my Florida blood.

Although SIPE is probably only responsible for a portion of the swim deaths, it would make sense to me that being in your wetsuit fully zipped for 20-30 min before the start would help your body adjust to the compression suit effects and if you need to pee to unload fluid volume and minimize fluid intake before start. Compression and cold causes the redistribution of blood volume from the arms and legs to the core causing a sudden increase on preload on the heart which causes strain and raises pulmonary arterial pressure promoting pulmonary edema. If the body has time ANF is released by the heart and causes you to pee to help adjust to change. This is why you tend to want to urinate when you go into the water.
I like to wear my wetsuit for a hour before the race start to help adjust to it.

I was thinking about this a while ago too. I was wondering the Mammalian Dive Reflex was causing the increase in incidents. Could exerting yourself while experiencing the mammalian dive reflex have negative effects on your heart?

I couldn't agree more. I just did a 5 hour long off-road triathlon and the swim start had a bunch of goofballs sprinting into the water and then blasting white water all over the place. I was taken aback by the scene, walked casually into the water, and then swam around them and passed them all for the swim-win within only 400 yards. I think race announcers need to tell everybody to spread out and calm the f down.

Of course it is a combinations of factors. A friend's brother died in the swim of an IM a few years back. Tragic. Part of the equation was lack of open water swim experience that leads to the anxiety, which causes hyperventilation, etc, and cascades into the tragic result.

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

But it’s most likely a very small part of the equation. My emphasis here is that many triathletes are under the impression that this is a self-controllable situation. Just warm up, don’t wear a wet suit, learn not to panic, don’t be an older male, etc, but these are most likely peripherals. We are all hoping the main underlying causes can be identified, and I absolutely agree that this should not be a reason to give up triathlon, but my belief is that those who had cardiac events in the swim had underlying issues that had nothing to do with their experience level.

Drowning.

"But it’s most likely a very small part of the equation. My emphasis here is that many triathletes are under the impression that this is a self-controllable situation. Just warm up, don’t wear a wet suit, learn not to panic, don’t be an older male, etc, but these are most likely peripherals. We are all hoping the main underlying causes can be identified, and I absolutely agree that this should not be a reason to give up triathlon,"
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Agreed 100%

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.