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First time really racing with power... help me understand what is going on during my run
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I picked up a power meter this winter and dove head first into a new season of TrainerRoad to much success. Saw my FTP bump to 257 while seeing my running times fall as well. Needless to say I had a great build heading into the season and now it is time to cash in all that work.

Raced the an olympic distance this last weekend. Third race of the year with power but first time I payed attention and tried to hit a number.

Knowing that I train on my road bike and also knowing we sometimes lose some FTP when transitioning to a TT position I decided to shoot for 220-230 watts for the race. I felt my effort was much more balanced and steady than I have usually raced. I had fewer needless surges but also fewer dips necessitating those needless surges.

Post race metrics show 219 AP 227 NP 0.87 IF and 1.04 VI. Cool. I felt great, hit my nutrition, hydration and was ready to run.

I had just come off a HM PR last month and decided to run this 10k basically exactly like the final 6.5 miles of the half. Everything went to plan, but I felt like my legs wanted to cramp in the final mile or 2. Just enough discomfort to prevent me from pushing the pace even through my lungs and heart had more in them.

How do I get these legs to corporate? I'm a dedicated treadmill interval runner and I put in about 30 miles a week on top of being highly compliant in my TrainerRoad high volume plan. In addition to half of my miles being easy recovery mileage, there's a tempo run as well as a long run thrown in for good measure.

I'm dying for a TR like app for getting faster through treadmill intervals, but I'm wondering if I'm still lacking some run specific muscular endurance? Should I do a hill session instead of the interval session once in a while?

My run times have fallen dramatically this year and my effort level was not out of line. What should I do to augment my run training to help further sharpen the blade?

tl;dr - I'm crampy on the run despite a ton of run specific training, high level bike training, good nutrition and not over swimming/over biking. What gives?
Last edited by: BuildingSpeed: Jun 4, 19 7:32
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Re: First time really racing with power... help me understand what is going on [BuildingSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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Do you ever run outside?
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Re: First time really racing with power... help me understand what is going on [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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1/2 to 2/3 my mileage is outside including the tempo and weekend long run. As for the treadmill I run daily during lunch at work and do that weekly interval session.
Last edited by: BuildingSpeed: Jun 4, 19 7:17
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Re: First time really racing with power... help me understand what is going on [BuildingSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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Two things here.

One, there are those "rules of thumb" regarding what % of FTP you should hit for various distances. And like most rules of thumb, they are only marginally useful. You need to figure out what works for you based on race experience. So there is a chance that your FTP testing protocol was not the best. There is a chance your 88% of FTP was too much. You don't KNOW you are not overbiking.

Or your run performance could be unrelated to the power output and that brings me to point number two...

How much do you run outside? Treadmills are great for fitness but there is no substitute to outdoor running (as I learned the hard way this winter when I was confined to a treadmill for months due to weather issues). It very well could be that you haven't run outside enough to run well off the bike.
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Re: First time really racing with power... help me understand what is going on [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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I don't run much as a bike centric person, but can give this little anecdote......

I usually pick up run in the off season for some really economical aerobic engine work given the time input. My bike engine for the heart and lungs always initially far exceed my run legs.

I initially tried to supplant with treadmill stuff and doing some bricks. The treadmill just seemed crap for my run. I couldn't really run on the treadmill without a good bit of slope. Outdoors? Money.

Maybe people are built different for handling treadmills or something. But I simply can't run on a treadmill.

FWIW, your thread title is very misleading. You don't have a "racing with power" problem. You seem to have something going on involving running on a treadmill and your run pace or hydration/salts off the bike.

Nothing about that read like an issue with power. You seem to have nailed it if you can get it within a mile. Did you negative split the run? Equal? Faster at beginning?
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Re: First time really racing with power... help me understand what is going on [BuildingSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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Couple thoughts...

I am also "crampy" on the run. Even DNF'd IMTX in 2014 due to severe leg cramps on mile 14.
Got tested in med tent. All levels were ok, I was dehydrated though.

Lesson : hydrate WELL on the bike to eliminate dehydration as a cause.
Stay on course with nutrition, electrolytes, etc.
I added Hot Shot (https://amzn.to/2WIIfuy) before the swim and in T1. I cannot take it in T2 or on the run as it will cause me GI issues.
Use Gatorlyte in drinks on bike and T2 (https://amzn.to/2KxhwKK).

As for training, how far are your long runs? Even in the off season, I try and hit 15 to 18 miles for long runs, just to get that muscular endurance checked off. Some days I break it up to 8 in the AM and 8 over lunch to make it work, and hit 25 to 30 miles a week before building for HIM's and IM's.

Sounds like your mileage is on target, but maybe switch more of the volume to a long run day?

Also consider some brick work. I try and hit 2 miles after every ride just so my legs don't forget what that feels like.

Ryan
http://www.SetThePaceTriathlon.com
http://www.TriathlonTrainingDaddy.com
I got plans - https://www.trainingpeaks.com/...dotcom#trainingplans
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Re: First time really racing with power... help me understand what is going on during my run [BuildingSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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1) Are you doing bricks?
2) Are you doing any hill work
3)Are you riding the same bike for race day (you made a comment about losing watts in a tt position) and in aero position

2017 Cervelo P2
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Re: First time really racing with power... help me understand what is going on [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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Title changed a bit. Thank you!

I did negative split the run and was looking for more in the last mile. I also ran my HM with a strong negative split as well.

I only really started on the treadmill this last winter but I responded so well that I stuck with it. I went from 20 MPW in 2018 to 30 MPW in 2019 with most of the added mileage happening on said treadmill. (most of the added volume is during lunch when i can get a quick 2 or 3 miles)

Someone else has mentioned hydration. I pushed over 50 oz of water on the bike and use infinit mix as well. I also carry 20 oz on the run with a different mix of infinit as well as taking water at aid stations. I am a HEAVY and SALTY sweater and I honestly think i'm on top of it. I refuse to race longer than 3 hours as I just can't keep up. However this may be playing a larger part in my running than I am willing to admit.
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Re: First time really racing with power... help me understand what is going on [TriJayhawkRyan] [ In reply to ]
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Brick work. Yes. Well said and a definite missing piece of my week. Thank you and noted!

My saturday long run is in the 8-10 mile range depending on weekly mileage and fatigue levels.

Worth noting 2 days a week i get 3 miles in at lunch and run another 5 or 6 before dinner so there's volume there as well.

I responded to the hydration aspect in another reply, but quickly admit this may still be a bigger issue than i was willing to admit.
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Re: First time really racing with power... help me understand what is going on during my run [gymrat] [ In reply to ]
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1. Not really
2. No
3. 50/50

Someone else has mentioned bricks... I think this is playing a part.

Could you tell me about your hill repeat program in general?
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Re: First time really racing with power... help me understand what is going on during my run [BuildingSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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Clearly lots of things going on. I don't personally see a lot of benefit in "the brick" as I'm not convinced there is much of a physiological gain to be had... it is probably more mental, and for me I don't need to be hit in the bollocks lots of times to remind me how much I don't enjoy being hit in the bollocks (nor do I suspect it will make me better able to withstand getting hit in the bollocks). Ok, that's not a perfect analogy.

But, the thing that stuck out for me reading your post - maybe try training more on the TT bike in aero? Specificity is a real thing.
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Re: First time really racing with power... help me understand what is going on during my run [knighty76] [ In reply to ]
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knighty76 wrote:
maybe try training more on the TT bike in aero? Specificity is a real thing.

To the OP. Which is why people are questioning treadmill running too; only running outside will condition your legs to the 'punishment', much like riding in the aero position in training.

29 years and counting
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Re: First time really racing with power... help me understand what is going on during my run [BuildingSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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Next race back off the power a tad and see how you feel on the run. Repeat until you dial it in.

Did you taper at all?

What were the conditions (course, climate, etc)? Hilly bike? It can burn you out even if your NP was on target. Hilly run? Don't expect to run up to your potential. Hot day? Don't expect anything to go as planned.
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Re: First time really racing with power... help me understand what is going on during my run [BuildingSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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My first thought was nutrition, and mainly salt. The only distance I have ever cramped in was the Oly. I get inner quad cramps right above the knee. For me I think it's a combination of a hard bike followed by a hard run that is just long enough to cause problems (never once happened in a sprint, half or full). I started upping my salt intake and the problem went away (a few salt pills during the race).
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Re: First time really racing with power... help me understand what is going on during my run [BuildingSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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It sounds to me like you had a great race. congrats
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Re: First time really racing with power... help me understand what is going on during my run [BuildingSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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BuildingSpeed wrote:

I had just come off a HM PR last month and decided to run this 10k basically exactly like the final 6.5 miles of the half. Everything went to plan, but I felt like my legs wanted to cramp in the final mile or 2. Just enough discomfort to prevent me from pushing the pace even through my lungs and heart had more in them.

Triathlon is hard, if you are starting to cramp in the final mile then you are in fact doing it right. Racing is about being on the rivet and it sounds like you were right there. I dont buy that there is anything you really need to 'fix' here, just need to get more experience dealing with discomfort. The more you race the more you will figure out what kind of pain you can push through and keep from slowing down.

I do find that bricks can be useful specifically for this issue. Do a really hard interval session on the bike and then run at open 10k pace. That should put you in similar ballpark.
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Re: First time really racing with power... help me understand what is going on during my run [TPerkin2000] [ In reply to ]
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This is a revelation that reminds me on an old Formula 1 adage: 'You want the racecar to finish the race and fall apart as soon as it takes the checkered flag. Any more endurance built into it is wasted speed.'

A thought similar to what you mention had crossed my mind but I couldn't formulate it into thought without your comment.

I truly think it was my best executed race ever so you may be onto something. There may not necessarily be a deficiency, it could be just time to ratchet up the work and look for the next performance level.
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