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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Fishbum wrote:
But the same statement goes for losses. What if you make the change and see a loss. Doesn't mean it was the new equipment.

I guess the bigger question is can we trust anything that is not tested by an outside independent company.

If only there were ways to do tests ourselves.
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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Lol I'm trying to read your shit right not!!!
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Fishbum wrote:
Lol I'm trying to read your shit right not!!!

for it....you need a power meter. One that is NOT single-sided.
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Power tap hub?
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:
Fishbum wrote:
Lol I'm trying to read your shit right not!!!


for it....you need a power meter. One that is NOT single-sided.

ppffttt. I do all my aero testing using heart rate.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
burnthesheep wrote:
In other words, focus on the 80% losses first. Then the 20%.

Can you do both? Is that allowed?

You sound like my boss when I ask what the priority tasks are? His response is they’re all top priority
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
Tom_hampton wrote:
Fishbum wrote:
Lol I'm trying to read your shit right not!!!


for it....you need a power meter. One that is NOT single-sided.


ppffttt. I do all my aero testing using heart rate.

Oh yeah? I do mine with RPE, and the feel of the wind against my face. I can just feel if its faster.
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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No!! Did you watch Karate Kid? Did Mr. Miyagi teach Daniel how to kick ass the first day? No... he made him to wax on / wax off every car in his huge collection of classics first.


RChung wrote:
burnthesheep wrote:

In other words, focus on the 80% losses first. Then the 20%.


Can you do both? Is that allowed?

What's your CdA?
Last edited by: trailerhouse: Mar 15, 19 8:30
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:
RowToTri wrote:
Tom_hampton wrote:
Fishbum wrote:
Lol I'm trying to read your shit right not!!!


for it....you need a power meter. One that is NOT single-sided.


ppffttt. I do all my aero testing using heart rate.

Oh yeah? I do mine with RPE, and the feel of the wind against my face. I can just feel if its faster.

I just do whatever Jan does.

Sincerely,
Lionel

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Fishbum wrote:
Power tap hub?

It does NOT have to be a PT-hub. It just needs to accumulate power from both legs. So, single sided pedals or crank-arm based won't work very well. Chain-ring, bottom bracket, or hub based...along with dual-sided pedals, and cranks.

However, I think the PT-hub is the gold standard for aero testing...specifically because it excludes any errors / losses associated with the drivetrain. I'm not an expert, or anywhere close to it. Just another guy who has done some aero testing...and not really very much.
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Tom_hampton wrote:
RowToTri wrote:
Tom_hampton wrote:
Fishbum wrote:
Lol I'm trying to read your shit right not!!!


for it....you need a power meter. One that is NOT single-sided.


ppffttt. I do all my aero testing using heart rate.


Oh yeah? I do mine with RPE, and the feel of the wind against my face. I can just feel if its faster.


I just do whatever Jan does.

Sincerely,
Lionel

Next up....velotron jokes!
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [hubcaps] [ In reply to ]
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hubcaps wrote:
I read his book when I started in the sport. The info was okay and most of the info easy to find if you are a geek. I don't think it influenced me much except holding off for many years before buying carbon aero rims. However, that was more confirmatory than eye opening.

I should review the book, but looking him up now there's something that doesn't vibe well with me. As a geek, I'm constantly looking for the most up to date info. He didn't continue that. It seems like he disappeared. He deleted his twitter and doesn't have anything new posted online except this: http://jim-gourley.blogspot.com/
His velopress bio, it states he his a multiple ironman finisher. I can't find one finish. He keeps bragging about being a rocket scientist. His bio reads like he is twisting the truth. I could be wrong. Since he graduated with a degree in aerospace engineering, he might be working on something top secret.

Hmmm... USAT has only one result from a man named Jim or James Gourley, and it's a short course race by someone from the Federated States of Micronesia. As a US Air Force officer, I assume he is from the US....

Also, I know a bunch of engineers and scientists that work on spacecraft and rockets and none of them have ever called themselves a "rocket scientist".

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:

Also, I know a bunch of engineers and scientists that work on spacecraft and rockets and none of them have ever called themselves a "rocket scientist".


Only at parties when trying to impress the chicks. Its most effective when it is pronounced with a listhp. But, that's not very PC.
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: Mar 15, 19 8:41
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [mickison] [ In reply to ]
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mickison wrote:
You sound like my boss when I ask what the priority tasks are? His response is they’re all top priority

I think it's more like your boss saying "Sure, handle the high priority tasks first, but you can't simply ignore the lower priority tasks and never address them."

Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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The power meter doesn't need to be accurate, it has to be consistent, but that isn't what the author was trying to convey. It's a statistics problem.

Even if your meter is dead on every time, your body isn't functioning the same every time. Your position is different every time regardless of how careful your setup is, your speed measuring device has error (even a GPS) that varies from day to day, and the road surface conditions aren't the same. That's if you are looking for gains in speed for reduction in watts. If you are looking at FTP it is even more meaningless.

A +- 5 watt change is nothing more than data scatter under those conditions and should be ignored.

"...the street finds its own uses for things"
Last edited by: AutomaticJack: Mar 15, 19 8:44
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
Tom_hampton wrote:
Fishbum wrote:
Lol I'm trying to read your shit right not!!!


for it....you need a power meter. One that is NOT single-sided.

ppffttt. I do all my aero testing using heart rate.

Reread the post. That's was specifically to racing by hr rate. I train with a power PM on my trainer.
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [AutomaticJack] [ In reply to ]
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AutomaticJack wrote:
The power meter doesn't need to be accurate, it has to be consistent, but that isn't what the author was trying to convey. It's a statistics problem.

Even if your meter is dead on every time, your body isn't functioning the same every time. Your position is different every time regardless of how careful your setup is, your speed measuring device has error (even a GPS) that varies from day to day, and the road surface conditions aren't the same. That's if you are looking for gains in speed for reduction in watts. If you are looking at FTP it is even more meaningless.

A +- 5 watt change is nothing more than data scatter under those conditions and should be ignored.

"even a GPS" has error for speed? No kidding! A wheel magnet is awufully precise. GPS is extremely inaccurate and variable.

If only there was a way to statistically isolate causality for the changes... repeated runs on alternating configurations can easily tease out the signal you are looking for, even with a not perfectly immobile rider.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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It was just a joke - don't take offense!

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [Rocket_racing] [ In reply to ]
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Rocket_racing wrote:
“Don’t sweat the small stuff, go for the big gains.”

Maybe this is out of context. Sure, go for the big stuff first. But also go for the cheap/easy stuff, even if the gains are smaller. You would be dumb not to.

The bigger question is where to draw the line on the very expensive marginal gains. That is dependant on your budget, and level of competitiveness.

I agree with this. I'm a MOPer or maybe on good days top 25% to top 1/3 in the big events. There is only so much I'm willing to do. I have my 2014 cervelo P2. That's all the bike I'll ever need. I got an aero helmet, aero wheels. I've been fitted and tweaked my fit a few times. I maybe could work on a more aggressive position on the bike but I'm pretty comfortable with my current fit so hate messing with something that I know doesn't leave me in pain on a 5+ hour ride. I keep my drive train clean. I might fiddle with my BTA bottle and rear hydration stuff. But that's about as far as I'm going.
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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None taken! Hence the problem with messages you can never tell what's meant behind the way someone words something.
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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There is a lot of truth in his statement. Go look at any IM event and notice how many people are riding on high dollar TT rigs and not riding on the aerobars for 3/4’s of the race.

For all the aero weenies, I say get a proper fit and saddle. Dial in that position and then hold power throughout the bike leg. If you can’t do it, then you’re pissing in the wind with all these marginal gains.
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [mwanner13] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed. And I've been there. I've been that guy because I assumed what I could hold for 55 miles would translate to a fool IM.
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [AutomaticJack] [ In reply to ]
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AutomaticJack wrote:
The power meter doesn't need to be accurate, it has to be consistent,

No, it has to be accurate.

What's your CdA?
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe he should have called the book SLOWER

Because if you decide to ignore small gains you need to go :
crap tyres (little difference with good tyres)
crap tubes (it's ok)
average wheels (good enough - it will not make you run faster)
basic frame (who need a real TT frame - aero weenies snowflakes)
big bottles on the frame (more handy)
high position (why bother ?)
wool shirt (more style)
big round helmet (safer)
and you can skip some training sessions (more recovery)
another sausage (mmmmhhh...)
some more chocolate (good things cannot hurt)
some wine (good for recovery)
some beer (hydration is key)
...

Yeah, absolutely. Everybody should do that....
Personally as I'm a bit studdborn and stupid I will stick with the old stupid method of marginal gains
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [AutomaticJack] [ In reply to ]
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AutomaticJack wrote:
The power meter doesn't need to be accurate, it has to be consistent, but that isn't what the author was trying to convey. It's a statistics problem.

Even if your meter is dead on every time, your body isn't functioning the same every time. Your position is different every time regardless of how careful your setup is, your speed measuring device has error (even a GPS) that varies from day to day, and the road surface conditions aren't the same. That's if you are looking for gains in speed for reduction in watts. If you are looking at FTP it is even more meaningless.

A +- 5 watt change is nothing more than data scatter under those conditions and should be ignored.

Are you sure this wasn't meant to be in pink?
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