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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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I don’t see it as Pub v Dem as much as you’re implying. That said, all the political talk about significant expansion of taxpayer funded programs in certain states concerns me. Perhaps it is just political talk and unlikely to happen but NY and IL are watching their states hit the wall and are still bragging about socialist-style aspirations. CA was better off with Gov Brown but now we have Newsome and a far left legislature. It’s a bit disconcerting to me but we will have to see how far they go. I recently read that by the year 2025, 50% of the education budget will go to retired teacher pensions. That is not sustainable.

Look at AOCs position against Amazon setting up HQ2 in her district which would hold a lot of younger workers. She doesn’t want it. I cannot understand the NY voters. Not Pub v Dem, it’s more center left v far left.
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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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Your "over65/under 65" graphs really suck. Why aren't they done as percentage of population? You are comparing Maine/West Virginia and NY, with vastly different total populations. You are mostly showing that states with larger populations have more folks (both under and over 65).

If you really study the graph (trying to account for population size), almost all of the states are becoming older. Illinois and WV are shrinking in total population. The growth in NY's retired population is real, but it has a great deal to do with the year range 2010-2017, which coincides with the housing collapse and recovery. In 2010 and for several years afterward, many folks opted to hold on to their under-valued property (if they could). At this point, a large "wealth" effect is taking hold, where many affluent retirees can hold on to wildly inflated houses AND retire comfortably. If folks were a little less well-off, they would "cash out" their home. Now, many don't need to.
Last edited by: oldandslow: Feb 12, 19 8:09
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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
FishyJoe wrote:
I remember overhearing a guy at a bookstore in Sunnyvale, CA around 1991. I guess he was one of those prepper guys. He said was waiting for the economic collapse. He was selling all his stuff and building a bunker. He gave all kinds of reasons, high taxes, bad government, illegal immigrants, etc.

Think about this, we were at the dawn of one of the greatest financial booms in world history and this guy was waiting for the economic downfall of society.


Let me ask you this: what causes a financial boom? In other words, economic fundamentals held the same (population, real productive capacity, etc.) what causes the boom?

In this case, technical innovation. The horrible combination of those terrible liberal universities and always wrong scientists in high priced California.
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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]
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FishyJoe wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
FishyJoe wrote:
I remember overhearing a guy at a bookstore in Sunnyvale, CA around 1991. I guess he was one of those prepper guys. He said was waiting for the economic collapse. He was selling all his stuff and building a bunker. He gave all kinds of reasons, high taxes, bad government, illegal immigrants, etc.

Think about this, we were at the dawn of one of the greatest financial booms in world history and this guy was waiting for the economic downfall of society.


Let me ask you this: what causes a financial boom? In other words, economic fundamentals held the same (population, real productive capacity, etc.) what causes the boom?


In this case, technical innovation. The horrible combination of those terrible liberal universities and always wrong scientists in high priced California.


The STEM sections of the universities produce the innovation. They have little interest in liberal politics. Very little of the talent goes into the humanities.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [len] [ In reply to ]
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len wrote:
FishyJoe wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
FishyJoe wrote:
I remember overhearing a guy at a bookstore in Sunnyvale, CA around 1991. I guess he was one of those prepper guys. He said was waiting for the economic collapse. He was selling all his stuff and building a bunker. He gave all kinds of reasons, high taxes, bad government, illegal immigrants, etc.

Think about this, we were at the dawn of one of the greatest financial booms in world history and this guy was waiting for the economic downfall of society.


Let me ask you this: what causes a financial boom? In other words, economic fundamentals held the same (population, real productive capacity, etc.) what causes the boom?


In this case, technical innovation. The horrible combination of those terrible liberal universities and always wrong scientists in high priced California.



The STEM sections of the universities produce the innovation. They have little interest in liberal politics. Very little of the talent goes into the humanities.

I don't know if you can completely separate the two. If universities were just a technical grindhouse, I don't think you would get the same results. Students should be exposed to a variety of topics and experiences outside of their expertise.
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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]
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FishyJoe wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
FishyJoe wrote:
I remember overhearing a guy at a bookstore in Sunnyvale, CA around 1991. I guess he was one of those prepper guys. He said was waiting for the economic collapse. He was selling all his stuff and building a bunker. He gave all kinds of reasons, high taxes, bad government, illegal immigrants, etc.

Think about this, we were at the dawn of one of the greatest financial booms in world history and this guy was waiting for the economic downfall of society.

Let me ask you this: what causes a financial boom? In other words, economic fundamentals held the same (population, real productive capacity, etc.) what causes the boom?

In this case, technical innovation. The horrible combination of those terrible liberal universities and always wrong scientists in high priced California.

Incorrect. Technical innovation led to an increase in real GDP. Nominal GDP is a different beast. Guess again and think about it this way: what provided the fuel for the eventual fires that were the Dot-com bubble and the housing bubble?
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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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oldandslow wrote:
Your "over65/under 65" graphs really suck.


Where are your graphs?
Last edited by: GreenPlease: Feb 12, 19 8:24
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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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I don't have any on that exact issue. I did try analyze your graphs, taking into account the fact that they weren't normalized for population. They don't say that much, except that Illinois and WV are losing folks (which bodes very poorly for those states), and almost all other states shown are becoming older. NY seems to be gentrifying more than other states, but that may be due to the recent housing cycle.

Again, it is difficult to interpret real useful information from those graphs because they SUCK.
Last edited by: oldandslow: Feb 12, 19 8:31
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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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Illinois isn't just losing people, they're losing young(er) people. That's an enormous problem. For both NY and IL the dependency ratio is increasing which is bad for the finances of those states... which are already in poor shape. That's kind of the important point I'm making. Most states in the U.S. are seeing an increase in their dependency ratio but some states are already in very bad shape and things are only getting worse for them.
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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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real GDP. Nominal GDP is a different beast.

Nominal GDP is merely GDP without accounting for inflation. Real GDP accounts for it. Is that what you mean?
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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:

Incorrect. Technical innovation led to an increase in real GDP. Nominal GDP is a different beast. Guess again and think about it this way: what provided the fuel for the eventual fires that were the Dot-com bubble and the housing bubble?

excess (cheap) capital.

But the innovations of the last decade are consumption drivers. Look at personal debt levels. Household debt services is the lowest it has been in decades. Innovation has made consumption "efficient." Effectively the spending multiplier has increased. This is my own theory, feel free to blow it away.
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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
Fine, congress which is controlled by the GOP is spending uncontrollably after years of uncontrollable spending during the Obama years.

I guess what I am after is why does impending problems for Dem cities and states give you guys a boner while you generally ignore the mess federally?

Seems to me that spending is out of control all over the place. Is one worse than the other?

The problem is politicians in general, both sides of the aisle, Federal, State and Local. When a new politician comes into power the old politicians (some have been around for more than 20 years), make sure they either kowtow to the spend, spend, spend mantra or they unify and force that individual out of power.

In this case the current President, whether you like him or not, isn't playing by the political rules which is making the old politicians go insane.

The state and local governments are no different, they are just at a different level of the food (tax), chain.
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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]
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FishyJoe wrote:
len wrote:
FishyJoe wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
FishyJoe wrote:
I remember overhearing a guy at a bookstore in Sunnyvale, CA around 1991. I guess he was one of those prepper guys. He said was waiting for the economic collapse. He was selling all his stuff and building a bunker. He gave all kinds of reasons, high taxes, bad government, illegal immigrants, etc.

Think about this, we were at the dawn of one of the greatest financial booms in world history and this guy was waiting for the economic downfall of society.


Let me ask you this: what causes a financial boom? In other words, economic fundamentals held the same (population, real productive capacity, etc.) what causes the boom?


In this case, technical innovation. The horrible combination of those terrible liberal universities and always wrong scientists in high priced California.



The STEM sections of the universities produce the innovation. They have little interest in liberal politics. Very little of the talent goes into the humanities.


I don't know if you can completely separate the two. If universities were just a technical grindhouse, I don't think you would get the same results. Students should be exposed to a variety of topics and experiences outside of their expertise.

Yes but I and others question if the university presently teaches to their benefit.

"At our institutions of higher learning, a multitude of panels and conferences were organized on the economic crisis, bemoaning such things as the absense of oversight, lax regulatory regime, failures of public and private entities to exercise diligence in dispensing credit or expanding complex financial products. Yet one searches in vain for a university president or college leader-especially in the elite echelon-acknowledging that there was a deep culpability on the part of their own institutions for our failure and our students' as well. After all it was the leading graduates of the elite institutions of the nation who occupied places of esteem in top financial and political institutions throughout the land who were responsible for precipitating the economic crisis. Leaders of such educational institutions readily take credit for Rhodes and Fulbright scholars. What of those graduates who helped foster the environment of avarice and schemes of the get-rich-quick. Are we so assured that they did not learn exceedingly well the lessons they learned in college"

Patrick Deneen Why Liberalism Failed

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [len] [ In reply to ]
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Doesn't really respond to FIshyJoe's comment, does it? It is merely a screed which oversimplifies and demonizes one area, on a topic wholly unrelated to the one at hand, i.e. the importance of university education (specifically STEM) in SIlicon Valley. Blaming higher education for the economic collapse seems to be a different thread. Do you live in Silicon Valley? The answer of how educational choices play out here is much more complex. Lots of liberal arts majors work in multiple industries here.
Last edited by: oldandslow: Feb 12, 19 9:26
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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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You graph helps partially explain all of the move to Indiana ads we get in Colorado
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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]
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FishyJoe wrote:
I remember overhearing a guy at a bookstore in Sunnyvale, CA around 1991. I guess he was one of those prepper guys. He said was waiting for the economic collapse. He was selling all his stuff and building a bunker. He gave all kinds of reasons, high taxes, bad government, illegal immigrants, etc.

Think about this, we were at the dawn of one of the greatest financial booms in world history and this guy was waiting for the economic downfall of society.

It is possible to assemble some economic data and a few logical seeming arguments and arrive at EVERY conclusion imaginable.

Professional economists and financial service professionals should have moved beyond this approach decades ago.

Explanation and prediction should be presented as probabilities and possibilities NOT as cause and effects.

Demand is always the most inexplicable of economic concepts.

I do not understand why there is such high demand for the goods and services (including real estate) of CA, WA, Chicago and NYC.

The crowds and high cost are deal breakers for me.

But I am not convinced that high demand, high cost areas will suddenly become unattractive because of taxes.
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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:

For both NY and IL the dependency ratio is increasing which is bad for the finances of those states... which are already in poor shape. That's kind of the important point I'm making.


Okay, but the data is messy, and doesn't take into account the original level of the dependency ratio. The better place to go is the census data (https://factfinder.census.gov/...tview.xhtml?src=bkmk), which can be set-up to show age dependencies state-by-state. NY and IL have an old-age dependency ~25%, compared to Maine's 33% (!). California is a ~22%. Lots of good info, wish ythe graph was more informative.

BTW, that graph appears here (http://worldpronews.com/...33242fe485141385613e). The primary upshot of the article isn't about state deomographics, but emphasizes that rural counties are depopulating and aging very quickly, while urban areas grow. That is the bigger economic trend.
Last edited by: oldandslow: Feb 12, 19 9:49
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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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Easy access to massive amounts of capital with poor regulatory oversight.
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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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Wow that's Chris Hamilton's work verbatim. I wonder if he's aware. In meetings for the balance of the day, more later.
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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
I actually strongly doubt that Ai will dwarf the impact of demographics. It's just really hard to mute the lifecycle-driven borrowing, saving, investment, and consumption decisions of 7 Billion+ consumers. I've read up on the topic of Ai quite a bit and it doesn't seem we're any closer to General Ai than we were a decade ago. Narrow Ai's have come a long ways and have already started affecting the job markets in certain professions... but I don't see the world suddenly lurching because of Ai.

Quantum computing is worth watching as that field has the potential to revolutionize several industries (healthcare in particular) by solving once intractable, incalculable problems in a matter of seconds (I'm simplifying here).

But neither Quantum Computing nor Ai will fix the imbalance between young and old, male and female in China. Question: how long does it take to increase the number of twenty-year -olds in a country? Answer: twenty years and nine months. The architecture of our global financial system was built on a certain lifecycle of production and consumption and therefore for it to function properly in the long run it needs a certain demographic profile. For the past 100 years life expectancies have steadily increased around the world and this has led to increased capital formation and therefore cheaper capital. Again, this isn't a one-way street. Keep pushing up life expectancies and eventually you get to a point where it makes capital more expensive.

Could you imagine a large European employer like Peugot or ThyssenKrupp suddenly having to pay "normal" interest rates while demand for their products drops? That's the sort of future they face.


Thanks for the thoughtful response. I don't have a crystal ball, of course, but I disagree a bit with some of your analysis. FWIW, here's my take:

I predict general AI in about 20 years that will able to do *any* job a human can do better than any human. The socioeconomic ramifications of that are staggering, if true.

But even setting that aside, narrow AI will continue to grow over that time period, displacing jobs, shifting wealth, transforming society, etc., and strongly affecting the demographic trends you've mentioned.

My investment portfolio (conservatively -- I'm not some kind of AI zealot) reflects my faith in AI's future.

Personally, I don't think QC (quantum computing) will ever mature enough to solve useful problems better than traditional computing architectures (mostly due to fundamental problems with de-coherence). That said, I've placed a couple of investment bets on QC in case I'm wrong.

To put my opinions in context, I'm an EE with a long industry background designing datacomm and embedded systems. I also teach undergrad Engineering, Computer Science, and occasionally Physics. Both QC and AI are topical interests of mine and I've followed their developments closely for decades, even doing early research in Computer Vision back in the '80's.

Cheers,

-Mike


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
Last edited by: MOP_Mike: Feb 12, 19 13:08
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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:

Wow that's Chris Hamilton's work verbatim. I wonder if he's aware. In meetings for the balance of the day, more later.



Who is he? (edit: you are right, it is his article!). I have no doubt, lots of folks are saying pretty much similar things. In your list of global trends, you didn't even mention widening inequality, which drives a lot of policy and demographic shifts. Hard to see present trends in wealth accumulation working for much longer, without some policy changes....
Last edited by: oldandslow: Feb 12, 19 12:52
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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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Given your knowledge/interest in AI, I thought you might get a kick out of this article. I work for an AI based startup and enjoy ‘AI Fails’ when I see them. ; )

https://techcrunch.com/...teach-it-racism/amp/
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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [JD21] [ In reply to ]
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Ha! Thanks.

Wait a few years. You won't be able to tell chat bots from people. Although, there are some LR posters that I've long suspected may be bots already... ;-)


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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I have to admit you might be right about that. I am currently somewhat preoccupied with why things are unraveling and despite if we have gov't of the right or the left things continue to deteriorate. I am not from Silicon Valley. My two kids are both in STEM and among all the kids they grew up with that is what the brightest and the best are doing.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Cuomo: "Tax the rich. We did that. God forbid the rich leave." [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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oldandslow wrote:
Doesn't really respond to FIshyJoe's comment, does it? It is merely a screed which oversimplifies and demonizes one area, on a topic wholly unrelated to the one at hand, i.e. the importance of university education (specifically STEM) in SIlicon Valley. Blaming higher education for the economic collapse seems to be a different thread. Do you live in Silicon Valley? The answer of how educational choices play out here is much more complex. Lots of liberal arts majors work in multiple industries here.

The Comp Sci major asks, "Does it work?"

The Engineering major asks, "How does it work?"

The Physics major asks, "Why does it work?"

. . .

The Liberal Arts major asks, "Want fries with that?"


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
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