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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [teichs42] [ In reply to ]
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Any information from someone claiming to know that 80% of triathletes and even pro cyclists are on the wrong saddle needs to be taken with a grain of salt...

teichs42 wrote:
milesthedog wrote:

Agreed, if it's so obvious, why are 80+% of triathletes (that number may even apply to pros, and cycling pros) riding the wrong saddle on their TT bikes? If it's obvious, I guess people aren't doing much about it, maybe because it's just too costly to test enough saddles.

As to Jim's post, I agree that the PN3.0 has most people covered, and for those with very sensitive nerves along the ischial tuberosity, a heavily cushioned version of the same type of saddle typically does the trick. So, that means I agree that saddles aren't quite as "personal" as some folks make them out to be. I believe that most people just haven't tried enough saddles. They probably choose based on aesthetics and what peers are riding. If people could test 25+ saddles in a blind test for extended periods of time and provide perceptual feedback that is recorded, I am betting you would see a trend towards a very few number of saddles. Now, in my view, the single saddle that meets 95% of riders' needs doesn't currently exist. But, I have feeling it will soon, and from a brand not currently producing saddles.

Are you able to offer more info about this?
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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here's what you all say when asked: "I'd be happier if I could find a new [blank] that was more comfortable, that fit, or was more ergonomic." below is what you chose for [blank]:

Saddle: 33%
Pedals: 0%
Cycling Shoes: 10%
Run Shoes: 6%
Aerobars: 7%
Wetsuit: 6%
Swim Goggles: 8%
Cycling Sunglass: 3%
Other: 3%
I'm good! 23%

some of us realized this before some other of us did. and that there is a slick way to demo a lot of saddles quickly, as i usually offer when we do a slowtwitch road show. it's pretty simple: you need the right saddles in your fit studio; the right tooling to demo those saddles; and some experience and expertise.

it's very hard to find local bike shops or fitters who'll do the very simple, not very expensive, things to solve these problems. and, sorry for the semi-hijack, but i'm about ready to unveil and champion a nationwide list of fitters who will.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Sep 9, 18 7:50
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe more grains of salt can be afforded if you first quote correctly: I wrote, ‘on TT bikes.’

As for Dan’s survey, saddle comfort has popped to the top on several of the ST surveys.

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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FindinFreestyle wrote:
I rode thousands of miles fully rotated forward on a standard Selle Italia SLR, firm with no cut out. I was centered right on my perineum. It was fine.

just because you can doesn't mean you should or that it was healthy.
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
On the other hand, I have found one saddle dominates my fits more than any other over the last 10 months. Man or woman, doesn't matter, they almost all choose the same saddle, the ISM PN 3.0.

Is there a particular saddle that stands out like this for road bike fits?
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Can you or anyone explain why one would be able to tilt more anteriorly on one saddle and not another? Dash, mystica, ISM, Cobb are pretty much a bifront seat that are pretty much the same shape. The widths and lengths are millimeters different.
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
FindinFreestyle wrote:
I rode thousands of miles fully rotated forward on a standard Selle Italia SLR, firm with no cut out. I was centered right on my perineum. It was fine.


just because you can doesn't mean you should or that it was healthy.

I didn't offer that example as evidence that it was either healthy or recommended, which was pretty clear from the context. I offered it as a counter to the premise that a proper saddle will magically create watts: a simplistic premise at best. Optimizing a fit is not about any one thing, and different riders are going to be sensitive to different aspects.
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
My contention is as follows: your most important piece of equipment in triathlon, by far, is unquestionably your saddle.

I would argue that your most important piece of equipment is your body. Everything else needs to accommodate it in its most efficient position.

kileyay wrote:
I contend that this single piece of equipment, properly configured, can mean 30 watts in terms of performance, which is 10x or 15x the delta between Zipp and Yolo, or Enve and Flo, or whatever.

Not to be pedantic, but 30 watts peak power output? Average output over the course of a race distance?

kileyay wrote:
But to believe my contention, you must accept the following as axiomatic: the rotation of the hips (on a time trial bike), which is a function that is critically dependent on the part under your ass, has a causal relationship to power production and aero that is unsurpassed by any other component on the bike. Who vouches for that statement? I do.

I tend to think about saddles a lot. I also tend to think along a couple of other lines, which are somewhat parallel, but maybe a slightly different perspective:
1. The spine must be positioned in a relatively neutral manner that corresponds with neutral muscle balance that does not limit the natural movement or otherwise place undue stressors on the skeletomuscular and neuromuscular systems.

2. The saddle must provide a stable platform for the pelvis in a way that not only allows for comfort at the touch point of the saddle, but support 1) above in order to minimize energy losses due to excess synergistic muscle utilization in the torso. I believe this is where the watts are "made" - not so much making gains, as minimizing losses that affect your ability to sustain power, combat fatigue, and maintain your ideal position (and "your ideal" is very individual, as would be your optimal saddle choice).

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Just a couple of other points I would make quickly. I apologize if this has already been posted; I haven't had time to read through this thread.
  1. Saddle comfort is also a matter of positioning. I find it rare that an athlete can only be comfortable on 1 saddle once they achieve a good position. Of course, that could be a bit of a chicken or egg conundrum, but many an athlete has come in not super happy with their saddle only to find it was their position that was making said saddle uncomfortable. Fits are not necessarily about selling saddles.
  2. When swapping saddles during a fit, it's important to insure overall position is remaining constant. I can place 3 different ISM saddles on a fit bike in the exact same spot, but it could yield 3 very different positions. If an athlete is attempting to find the best saddle, they need to be in, and stay in, a good position (see point #1).
  3. The best thing an athlete can say about a saddle when asked how it feels during a fit is, "Oh, wow, I wasn't even thinking about the saddle." It should disappear under them, and be a complete non-issue.
  4. Virtually every aero fit has a "moment" when both power and comfort increase dramatically (and this, I believe, is what Kileyay is referring to). Athlete: "This feels really good, the weight on my elbows is gone, but you need to turn the resistance back on." Me: "Great! I haven't touched the resistance." This is not possible without the proper saddle under the athlete.


Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim, you've got to promise to tell me if you ever bring your fit bike over to the UK. I would love to achieve what you describe above!
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [knighty76] [ In reply to ]
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knighty76 wrote:
Jim, you've got to promise to tell me if you ever bring your fit bike over to the UK. I would love to achieve what you describe above!

Likewise Vancouver.
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
and that there is a slick way to demo a lot of saddles quickly, as i usually offer when we do a slowtwitch road show. it's pretty simple: you need the right saddles in your fit studio; the right tooling to demo those saddles; and some experience and expertise.

it's very hard to find local bike shops or fitters who'll do the very simple, not very expensive, things to solve these problems. and, sorry for the semi-hijack, but i'm about ready to unveil and champion a nationwide list of fitters who will.

I have a friend who (like many/most of us) burnt out of triathlon after doing the 140.6 thing, but after buying and riding a gravel bike, he is considering coming back to road triathlon as well. He has no money, and as mentioned any money he had he just spent on a gravel bike, so it's my job to set him up with a TT bike and get him fit on that TT bike.

There are no ST road shows nearby and I would not advise or let any bike shop "fit professional" within 50 miles of him wrench my bike or touch his fit. I can get it figured out it with fit by internet, but I need to have the right 3 or 4 or 5 saddles available for him to try/get set up on.

This is directed to you and to other actual fitters, of which I am not one: What are those 3 or 4 or 5 saddles? Note that this will be a performance fit -- an "alien" long and low fit (that plebes would call "aggressive") -- because this is an athlete who will ride 2:12 to 2:15 on his way to a 4:1x in a 70.3.

#saddlebattle
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
Slowman wrote:
and that there is a slick way to demo a lot of saddles quickly, as i usually offer when we do a slowtwitch road show. it's pretty simple: you need the right saddles in your fit studio; the right tooling to demo those saddles; and some experience and expertise.

it's very hard to find local bike shops or fitters who'll do the very simple, not very expensive, things to solve these problems. and, sorry for the semi-hijack, but i'm about ready to unveil and champion a nationwide list of fitters who will.


I have a friend who (like many/most of us) burnt out of triathlon after doing the 140.6 thing, but after buying and riding a gravel bike, he is considering coming back to road triathlon as well. He has no money, and as mentioned any money he had he just spent on a gravel bike, so it's my job to set him up with a TT bike and get him fit on that TT bike.

There are no ST road shows nearby and I would not advise or let any bike shop "fit professional" within 50 miles of him wrench my bike or touch his fit. I can get it figured out it with fit by internet, but I need to have the right 3 or 4 or 5 saddles available for him to try/get set up on.

This is directed to you and to other actual fitters, of which I am not one: What are those 3 or 4 or 5 saddles? Note that this will be a performance fit -- an "alien" long and low fit (that plebes would call "aggressive") -- because this is an athlete who will ride 2:12 to 2:15 on his way to a 4:1x in a 70.3.

#saddlebattle

Fizik Mistica Large
Fizik Mistica Medium
ISM PN 3.0
ISM PS 1.0
ISM PS 2.0

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [charlie_does] [ In reply to ]
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charlie_does wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
On the other hand, I have found one saddle dominates my fits more than any other over the last 10 months. Man or woman, doesn't matter, they almost all choose the same saddle, the ISM PN 3.0.


Is there a particular saddle that stands out like this for road bike fits?

I'd be curious to know the answer to this as well. I've struggled with my saddle for years. Closest I've found is the Cobb Randee. It works well outside, but I can't stay on the trainer for more than an hour, which is a problem living in a cold weather climate. Most of my issues is perineum pain... I took a chance and ordered an Infinity Saddle today. It looks/sounds gimmicky, but after trying more than a dozen saddles that were all pretty similar to one another I thought I'd try something completely different. Worst case scenario I'm out the $35 restocking fee.

Anyone ever try the Infinity Saddle? I couldn't find much on it but it seems to have a following with ultra cyclists and most of the events I do are long distance gravel races at this point.

You guys have mentioned the ISM saddles... I would toss out the Cobb JOF 55 as another alternative for tri bikes. The ISM saddles didn't quite fit me but the Cobb works great. I haven't tried the new ISM saddles though, so it might not be apples to apples since they changed the name/numbering scheme.
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [Toefuzz] [ In reply to ]
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Toefuzz wrote:
charlie_does wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
On the other hand, I have found one saddle dominates my fits more than any other over the last 10 months. Man or woman, doesn't matter, they almost all choose the same saddle, the ISM PN 3.0.


Is there a particular saddle that stands out like this for road bike fits?


I'd be curious to know the answer to this as well. I've struggled with my saddle for years. Closest I've found is the Cobb Randee. It works well outside, but I can't stay on the trainer for more than an hour, which is a problem living in a cold weather climate. Most of my issues is perineum pain... I took a chance and ordered an Infinity Saddle today. It looks/sounds gimmicky, but after trying more than a dozen saddles that were all pretty similar to one another I thought I'd try something completely different. Worst case scenario I'm out the $35 restocking fee.

Anyone ever try the Infinity Saddle? I couldn't find much on it but it seems to have a following with ultra cyclists and most of the events I do are long distance gravel races at this point.

You guys have mentioned the ISM saddles... I would toss out the Cobb JOF 55 as another alternative for tri bikes. The ISM saddles didn't quite fit me but the Cobb works great. I haven't tried the new ISM saddles though, so it might not be apples to apples since they changed the name/numbering scheme.


Not sure if you've tried it, buy the Specialized Power Arc has been fantastic for me. I had a lot of issues on the trainer and tried many saddles and the Power Arc has been a godsend!
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [Toefuzz] [ In reply to ]
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I also would be curious as to Jim's answer, but I suspect it depends...


I have recently figured out that the Bontrager Hilo XXX or RXL -- which is the saddle I rode for years on the TT bike and the one that cost me ~25 watts as I went lower and longer and steeper with that same saddle under my taint -- is a great saddle for me on a drop bar road bike, especially one with an "aggressive" fit that more closely approximates a TT position. The reason it was a great TT saddle for me when I looked like this...



...is the reason it was a suboptimal saddle for me -- in terms of power production, not comfort -- when I looked like this



Similarly, in my first season I rode the Arione, which seemed to work just fine for me:



Before my second season, like Toefuzz, I spent hundreds of dollars on a Retul fit and out of that I looked just as bad if not worse, but I liked the Bontrager RXL saddle they let me try:



Eventually slowtwitch, or people I met through slowtwitch, got me to this point (same saddle):



Except for the rounded back, which is usually a bellwether or something, I looked okay but my power was down a lot, and that's because my hips were not rotating forward commensurate with the lowering and lengthening and steepening of my body, which needed to rotate as a system around the bottom bracket.

To address this, I moved from 170s to 165s down to 162.5s with not much (if any) impact on power production, though the slightly more open hip angle between 170 and 165s was discernible, while the 162.5 left me feeling like I lost too much leverage, so I settled on 165s. All this while flipping Quarqs...what a nightmare that season was.

At this point I kind of knew the problem was my saddle, even though nobody was telling me, so I went out to try new saddles, like the new Fizik:



But every time I wanted to try a new saddle, I had to take about 3 or 4 videos (like the screenshot from the video above) just to get myself even close to where I was on the previous saddle (i.e. to a fit that looks similarly optimized relative to that fit on my baseline saddle) and then I had to do 2 or 3 or 4 takes for someone who isn't me / who actually knows what they are talking about (i.e. a remote fitter) to nail it perfectly. Nailing the fit perfectly was critical to an objective assessment of the saddle itself, and there are many elements, including slope of the saddle, that are hard.

Moreover, saddles that seemed fine on the Kickr weren't fine outdoors. I felt like I was falling off into space on the Fizik. And those that did seem fine outdoors sometimes looked no different in terms of hip rotation (relative to my baseline) in trainer videos taken indoors. To make matters worse, assessments could take more than one ride because those assessments needed to accurately judge power production relative to the baseline, and that's a hard thing to do in just any one ride.

This process of trying saddles was (and remains) horrible, especially during the season, when you're trying to train and not mess with stuff like this which throws off your current status quo position / fit that you have worked to optimize around the saddle you have rather than the one you should. But yet that seemed to be the best, most comprehensive way to solve the problem. Flipping Quarqs to test crank length, while raising the saddle commensurate with the shorter length, is infinitely easier than trying saddles -- go figure.

Tired of experimenting, I stuck with the Bontrager saddle in 2017 -- but, I decided that I wanted to go lower and longer than my equipment would allow, so I needed a new bike obviously, and I sold the old Felt B series and set up the Syntace Force 110mm stem with an Enve undermounted bar to get 2cm lower than I was before on a new frame. I looked better and felt better but my hips were still pointed to the heavens like I was riding a Fizik Arione in 2012. My power was still 25 watts light.



Eventually I found a saddle that allowed me to produce roughly similar power in aero on a time trial bike that I can in the drops on a road bike, and that is the motivation for this thread. The fit looks like this but it wouldn't look anything like that if the saddle wasn't the narrow Dash Stage. Then again if the saddle was the standard Dash Stage, I'd come off the bike with chafing so bad I wouldn't dare try to run, even if it looks just as good on the fit bike/in the fit studio -- see the problem?

I haven't raced this year but in training I have found that, with this saddle and fit, I can produce the same power in aero on my TT bike now -- with a more "aggressive" (i.e. longer and lower) fit than ever, as I now ride a full 3cm lower than I did on that last Felt pic -- that I could in 2012 and 2013 when I rocked a road bike fit. This power is conveniently the same as that I can make now in my road bike drops, where I am most comfortable using the Bontrager saddle that I loved when I rode a time trial bike like it was a road bike -- as almost all triathletes still do.

I've messed around with saddles a lot recently across road, gravel, and mountain and at last I feel I have found the right saddle for TT road, for aero road/aero gravel, for upright road and/or gravel, and for flat bar setups (i.e. mountain/fat/plus/commuting). They are all different. The narrow Dash Stage goes on my TT bike, the Bontrager RXL/XXX saddle goes on my aero road/gravel, and the Brooks Cambium C17 or the Bontrager road/mountain options go on all my other bikes. Mix those around and shit gets really weird. In general, I've found that the more upright your body, the less issues I have with any old random saddle, which is probably why you see people who have been fit by bike shops with 4cm of spacers under their stem. Saddle-centric fits are hard, but those are the only fits worth anything.

So my overall thesis goes something like this: the saddle that is right for you depends on your fit, and your fit depends on your saddle, and the assessment of that fit and saddle is a process -- I continue to hear that this process can be completed in one session or two and I continue to call "bullshit" -- that takes a lot of time to solve and optimize over the course of many mini sessions and while at least giving a fair shake to four or five saddles in a full on #saddlebattle.

I enjoy trolling Mat Steinmetz's instagram pointing out saddles that are obviously wrong, and Mat (and I believe cyclenutnz also) told me the same thing regarding my remote fit / flash fit product idea -- they say the time demands on a fitter are too high. Going back and forth sending videos between athletes and fitters simply takes them too much time. Well, yeah, of course it does...which is why the product should be significantly more expensive.

Think $1,500 for a service that has cost me and many others significantly more, but the service comes with unlimited flash fits, up to 6 saddles to demo, and the camera stand and all that that Jim offers. Athletes are flying to California from South America to get fit by these ERO goes, or from any number of places to Colorado in order to appear on 51 Speedshop's instagram feed (fit is secondary), and I just think that is so stupid when if you leave with the wrong piece of equipment under your ass, which you may well find out later, then the whole exercise is worthless.

Buying a bike that fits is important, but finding a saddle that allows you to achieve your best fit -- with best being inclusive of that which has the least incursion on power production, as well as aero -- is what tells you what bike that is.
Last edited by: kileyay: Oct 1, 18 10:39
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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every time I see/hear #saddlebattle I think of that Flight of the Conchords song "Too Many Dicks" and "I came to do battle, skedaddle with your cattle prods"

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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This is probably your single-best post on Slowtwitch, and should dovetail with all of Dan's talk on Reasonable Bike Fit Expectations.

I don't think we can impress upon this enough: if the saddle is wrong, the rest of the fit is wrong. If I had unlimited resources and time, I would be getting a fit bike, five saddles, and offering a somewhat similar service. But, you know, real jobs and all that get in the way. Some day I'll rip that band aid off...

I do think that you can *typically* find the right saddle in a single fit session. But that also requires you to have the saddles that are most likely to work for someone, and enough knowledge to know when to go in a different direction.

If I were picking saddles to stock, I'd probably include one of the Cobb (or whatever the hell that company is called now) saddles - V-Flow Plus, maybe. And then the couple of ISMs already mentioned, and perhaps the Bontrager you mentioned (I, too, really liked that saddle on a drop bar bike).





----------------------------------
Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you started at a certain fit X and saddle X, then the fit evolved into fit Y, but the saddle stayed at X. Where as the saddle should evolve as your fit pushes the limits of what you can handle on that saddle.

Also, do you feel like you could have gone straight to your current fit/saddle combo initially, or that the your saddle choice had to evolve as your fit evolved and could not go straight to the final saddle choice?

Strava
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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$1500? I think I was close to that for stupid bike fits! Okay, maybe not that high, but I was approaching four digits.

It’s definitely an interesting idea, but I think people would balk at the upfront cost vs slowly paying it out over time (trying saddles, bike fits, etc).
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Great Post by Kiley. I've gone through about 5 saddles over the years. Now on a dash stage saddle. I find it OK one the road but okay ish on the turbo.
Weirdly I often find just changing to a different saddle helps for a while and then it starts to irritate. So I now have 2 ism and the dash on rotation.
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I have yet to find a saddle that does not cause numbness. I have been through three to four saddles the current is an ism Adamo which is the best by far and letting me roll my hips forward but within a half hour I'm losing feeling.
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Same here, and is the reason I'll probably go for another fit over the offseason. And similar to the post above, when I make a change, it's good for a bit, but then it gets worse. Bought an ISM Prologue, felt GREAT when I installed it, thought I had found nirvana. Right as the 45 day return period passed I started to get numbness around 45 mins, then 2 months later it started in with the actual pain, as in I cannot even sit / readjust to even finish my workout.

Swapped to a Cobb V-Max I had lying around that used to be horrible, but I was riding with more pelvic tilt now and it worked better, as long as I changed it up during the ride and didn't just lock in to one position.
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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What do you guys think of the S-Works Power saddle?

I'm curious because it came with my used bike (back when I was completely new to cycling) so I just rode it from day one. It feels comfortable (other than my butt starting to go a little numb after the 2.5 hour mark) - but again I've never ridden anything else so I don't really know what "comfortable" should feel like.

There seems to be a good amount of experienced fitters in this thread - would love to get your thoughts and opinions on this saddle.
Last edited by: blayze: Oct 18, 18 8:54
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Re: The Saddle Battle: Your Most Important Piece of Equipment #saddlebattle [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Could you expand on what it was about the dash saddle that allowed you to get in current position, as opposed to the other saddles?
Was it that you -could- get into the same position with the other saddles, but that it was uncomfortable?

I find with my current saddle, sitero, I've finally found the position that I'm -comfortable- in and can stay in aero for an entire race feeling comfortable. That in itself made me more efficient this year. But, I have not learned to roll my hips forward and flatten out, that would not be comfy again......
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