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Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George
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Bush could bypass new torture ban
Waiver right is reserved

By Charlie Savage, Globe Staff | January 4, 2006

WASHINGTON -- When President Bush last week signed the bill outlawing the torture of detainees, he quietly reserved the right to bypass the law under his powers as commander in chief.

After approving the bill last Friday, Bush issued a ''signing statement" -- an official document in which a president lays out his interpretation of a new law -- declaring that he will view the interrogation limits in the context of his broader powers to protect national security. This means Bush believes he can waive the restrictions, the White House and legal specialists said.

''The executive branch shall construe [the law] in a manner consistent with the constitutional authority of the President . . . as Commander in Chief," Bush wrote, adding that this approach ''will assist in achieving the shared objective of the Congress and the President . . . of protecting the American people from further terrorist attacks."

Some legal specialists said yesterday that the president's signing statement, which was posted on the White House website but had gone unnoticed over the New Year's weekend, raises serious questions about whether he intends to follow the law.

A senior administration official, who spoke to a Globe reporter about the statement on condition of anonymity because he is not an official spokesman, said the president intended to reserve the right to use harsher methods in special situations involving national security.

''We are not going to ignore this law," the official said, noting that Bush, when signing laws, routinely issues signing statements saying he will construe them consistent with his own constitutional authority. ''We consider it a valid statute. We consider ourselves bound by the prohibition on cruel, unusual, and degrading treatment."

But, the official said, a situation could arise in which Bush may have to waive the law's restrictions to carry out his responsibilities to protect national security. He cited as an example a ''ticking time bomb" scenario, in which a detainee is believed to have information that could prevent a planned terrorist attack.

''Of course the president has the obligation to follow this law, [but] he also has the obligation to defend and protect the country as the commander in chief, and he will have to square those two responsibilities in each case," the official added. ''We are not expecting that those two responsibilities will come into conflict, but it's possible that they will."

David Golove, a New York University law professor who specializes in executive power issues, said that the signing statement means that Bush believes he can still authorize harsh interrogation tactics when he sees fit.

''The signing statement is saying 'I will only comply with this law when I want to, and if something arises in the war on terrorism where I think it's important to torture or engage in cruel, inhuman, and degrading conduct, I have the authority to do so and nothing in this law is going to stop me,' " he said. ''They don't want to come out and say it directly because it doesn't sound very nice, but it's unmistakable to anyone who has been following what's going on."

Golove and other legal specialists compared the signing statement to Bush's decision, revealed last month, to bypass a 1978 law forbidding domestic wiretapping without a warrant. Bush authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans' international phone calls and e-mails without a court order starting after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

The president and his aides argued that the Constitution gives the commander in chief the authority to bypass the 1978 law when necessary to protect national security. They also argued that Congress implicitly endorsed that power when it authorized the use of force against the perpetrators of the attacks.

Legal academics and human rights organizations said Bush's signing statement and his stance on the wiretapping law are part of a larger agenda that claims exclusive control of war-related matters for the executive branch and holds that any involvement by Congress or the courts should be minimal.

Vice President Dick Cheney recently told reporters, ''I believe in a strong, robust executive authority, and I think that the world we live in demands it. . . . I would argue that the actions that we've taken are totally appropriate and consistent with the constitutional authority of the president."

Since the 2001 attacks, the administration has also asserted the power to bypass domestic and international laws in deciding how to detain prisoners captured in the Afghanistan war. It also has claimed the power to hold any US citizen Bush designates an ''enemy combatant" without charges or access to an attorney.

And in 2002, the administration drafted a secret legal memo holding that Bush could authorize interrogators to violate antitorture laws when necessary to protect national security. After the memo was leaked to the press, the administration eliminated the language from a subsequent version, but it never repudiated the idea that Bush could authorize officials to ignore a law.

The issue heated up again in January 2005. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales disclosed during his confirmation hearing that the administration believed that antitorture laws and treaties did not restrict interrogators at overseas prisons because the Constitution does not apply abroad.

In response, Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, filed an amendment to a Defense Department bill explicitly saying that that the cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment of detainees in US custody is illegal regardless of where they are held.

McCain's office did not return calls seeking comment yesterday.

The White House tried hard to kill the McCain amendment. Cheney lobbied Congress to exempt the CIA from any interrogation limits, and Bush threatened to veto the bill, arguing that the executive branch has exclusive authority over war policy.

But after veto-proof majorities in both houses of Congress approved it, Bush called a press conference with McCain, praised the measure, and said he would accept it.

Legal specialists said the president's signing statement called into question his comments at the press conference.

''The whole point of the McCain Amendment was to close every loophole," said Marty Lederman, a Georgetown University law professor who served in the Justice Department from 1997 to 2002. ''The president has re-opened the loophole by asserting the constitutional authority to act in violation of the statute where it would assist in the war on terrorism."

Elisa Massimino, Washington director for Human Rights Watch, called Bush's signing statement an ''in-your-face affront" to both McCain and to Congress.

''The basic civics lesson that there are three co-equal branches of government that provide checks and balances on each other is being fundamentally rejected by this executive branch," she said.

''Congress is trying to flex its muscle to provide those checks [on detainee abuse], and it's being told through the signing statement that it's impotent. It's quite a radical view."
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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [rundhc] [ In reply to ]
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Grand.

This is exactly why I don't understand why Bush and his supporters even bother to fight these actions by Congress, and why they pretend to care what the courts say about these things. It all falls under the Executive Powers provision, right? He can do whatever he wants.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Right, we don't need a debate over the Patriot Act, and we don't need a debate over torture. They are all pointless.
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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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You usually read better than that.

To the extent circumstances cause any law to clash with the Constitution, the Constitution wins and the law loses. Constitutional law 101.

All rights have the potential to come into conflict with each other. The courts are there to strike the balance between them.

Any potential president that would take any option off the table in the context of protecting the country should not quit his day job.
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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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At this point, I doubt that the president would necessarily adhere to every supreme court ruling that went against him.

The more likely scenario is that the administration would find a White House lawyer who'd declare that the president can disregard the court in cases of national security, and then Bush and his diehard defenders would point to it as legal justification.

Next, Bush would tell the court that he is disobeying them, and that would be considered approval by the court. That seems to be the preferred MO with these guys.
Last edited by: rundhc: Jan 4, 06 17:24
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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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AJF you are are xactly right. The courts should and do have the right to decide the legality of such actions. Unfortunately our executive has made it clear through both his historical precedent as well as his policy statements that these decisions by the court will only apply if he feels its convenient for them to. I don't remember that power in my "constitution 101" class.

The president does not by virtue of the constitution OR historical precedent have the authority to take any option he feels necessary when he feels like it. Reporesentative democracy does not cnstitue an autocracy.
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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [rundhc] [ In reply to ]
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In order to trash Bush, you have to dodge the issue and make up imaginary things that you assume Bush would do.

I suppose I could argue that way about you too, but I won't.

Maybe you should restrict yourself to comments about what Bush actually does in the real world, not your imaginary reality.
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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [drflinn] [ In reply to ]
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"Unfortunately our executive has made it clear through both his historical precedent as well as his policy statements that these decisions by the court will only apply if he feels its convenient for them to."

Example please.

Oh, that's right. You don't have any and it was rude of me to ask.
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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [rundhc] [ In reply to ]
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welcome to the united kingdom.


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"the trouble with normal is - it always gets worse"

- Cockburn
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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Um, my scenario is based on what he did with Congress (and the judiciary) in the NSA case. He got a White House lawyer to say that Congress' laws don't apply to him -- just as he got one to say that he could jail Padilla forever and bypass the entire judicial process -- and then he tells a few Congressional leaders and a judge from the FISA court what he's doing and calls it approval.

So am I making things up, or am I extrapolating from a real track record? If Bush doesn't see himself needing to adhere to Congress' laws, why should he be anymore obligated to obey the court's verdicts?

And just for the record, when Bush ends up disobeying the court, which hardly seems unthinkable at this point, my guess is that conservatives will argue here that the founding fathers never gave the court ultimate powers; they usurped them with Marbury v. Madison. So those activist judges have no right to tell Bush what he can and can't do. Just want to go on record with that prediction.
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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [rundhc] [ In reply to ]
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I will ask again, when has he disobeyed the court, which from your context I take to mean the Supreme Court?

I know this is a tough one since Bush has won nearly 100% victories in nearly every case so far, but I am sure you have some reality from some imaginary universe to back up your assertion.

By the way, in the Padilla case, the SC just gave Bush the transfer he requested to criminal court. Damn annoying that he just keeps wining that way.

I don't know how the Padilla case will turn out, or even if the Supreme Court will examine the case. That is by far the toughest case yet. The NSA thing is as close to a slam dunk as you can get. I didn't notice you participating in any of the process matters threads to offer an intellectual argument to the contrary, by the way.
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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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There you go again. talking in your own vacuum and not reading what my post actually said. So let me spell it out for you again. I was _extrapolating_ future actions from recent actions. If Bush freely makes end runs around Congress, why not the Supreme Court?

Until two weeks ago, I didn't think that he would dismiss Congress in the way that he did, so why would it be hard to imagine him being dismissive of the Supreme Court. After all, this is the guy who doesn't think that basic habeas corpus rights seem to matter much. So why would he be constrained by a court?

As for Bush's stellar record in front of the court, he lost on Hamdi and Padilla and Guantanamo. The court rejected Bush's attempt to deny prisoners access to a lawyer and our courts. So he's hardly batting 1000 on the big issues. Now here is the interesting question. Do you really think that our newly-discovered CIA prisons in E. Europe are giving prisoners access to a lawyer. I somehow doubt it. We'll probably find out over time that there are many more Padillas. And would you really be surprised?
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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [rundhc] [ In reply to ]
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That is exactly my point. You are making up imaginary future actions by Bush and venting about them. Try planet Earth. Not such a bad place.

Well, at least you show the depth of your legal knowledge in this post. You speak with an underlying assumption that foreign terrorists are entitled to US Constitutional rights. Let me guess, you can't provide an example anywhere in history where that was true either, right?

I am trying to think of all the lawyers FDR provided during WWII to German and Japanese prisoners. Hmm. Let me think now. Zero?

You did well not to enter the Process Matters threads. Good call.
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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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I would torture them to be sure Americans are safe....does that make me a bad human or a good american?

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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I think the American public would probably agree with you.

Some of these cases, at least with American citizens like Hamdi and Padilli, are very tough.
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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, I will wait until Bush actively contravenes the Supreme Court as he has the Congress before I call him on it. In the meantime, I will just assume that a widespread pattern of disregard for basic constitutional principles says something about what we can expect in parallel situations. I strongly suspect that before this term is over, Bush/Cheney will be making arguments for why presidential authority can't be limited by the courts. .... And, of course, you'll turn up here defending them.

As for participating in the process threads, I guess it was a mistake for me to travel across the country to celebrate the holidays with my family. My time would have been much better spent arguing with you and watching you disingenuously contort yourself in every which direction to find a muddled intellectual justification for our dear president. That is always fun. I can't think of a better way to spend the holidays, really.
Last edited by: rundhc: Jan 4, 06 22:30
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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [rundhc] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, to hell with this family and friends and holiday business. The LR is what life is all about.
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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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I must've missed that provision in the Constitution that authorizes the President to torture folks in the name of national security....




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [mclamb6] [ In reply to ]
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Mclam, you are clearly not up to speed on the latest in junta constitutional theory.

Now if you close your eyes and think about George in his best cowboy duds, you can pretty much find in our constitution whatever you want. Torture, circumventing Congress, you name it, it's all there. It's all cool.
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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [rundhc] [ In reply to ]
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Could you guys stop referencing cases. When you do I have to go read the case and I'd rather smash my hand with a ball peen hammer than read legal jargon.
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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
You did well not to enter the Process Matters threads. Good call.
I noticed when your O'Reilly talking points argument that there was a legal basis for warrantless wiretaps on US cituzens was shot down, your participation in that thread abruptly ended. Interesting....

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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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My memory seems to differ. Please cite me the cases that prove your point again. Oh, forgot. There aren't any. Sorry for asking.

Just because I grant that existing precedents are not perfect and not a slam dunk, don't get too excited. Precedents never are perfect.
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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
My memory seems to differ. Please cite me the cases that prove your point again. Oh, forgot. There aren't any. Sorry for asking.

Just because I grant that existing precedents are not perfect and not a slam dunk, don't get too excited. Precedents never are perfect.


My apoligies, it was in the parallel thread

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...earch_string;#661795

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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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So you have no case, you just have an argument for a point that I have already conceded, that the cases I have cited are not perfect precedents.

There is no showing in the cases that indicates the logic is restricted to noncitizens. I grant a future court could rule that way, but you can't cite a single case that would so indicate.
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Re: Yet another law that doesn't apply to King George [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry Art, I dont know what the hell you just said there. But it's clear to me that you have read neither Truong nor In Re Sealed case, and based your assertions on misunderstanding snippets (which I'm guessing you got from some conservative blog somewhere) which do not support your assertion.

You claimed there was precedent for allowing the President to spy on American citizens. It is clear that there is no such precedent. And 3 or 4 lawyers here have also said as much.

What there is, Art, is a clear statute which forbids warrantless surveillance of American citizens. Let me say this very clearly: I don't need to find a case which says this, I have a law on the books which says this.

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