I think it's fair to say Trump's critics are very aware of his conservative stances on immigration, second amendment, etc. I'm sure they're very against those things and I'm sure many are working to counter him. It's foolish to think the president's personal behavior is enough to stop these people from continuing to work to counter him.

What troubles me, personally, is the idea many Trump supporters seem to have (and which you seem to be endorsing yourself above) that it's worth debasing the office of the president for these goals.

You acknowledge Trump constantly lies, attacks his own citizens for perceived slights, offends allies, etc. ad infinitum, but you dismiss all of this because you agree with some of the laws he's changing. By doing this, you've just put a price tag on how you value of the office of the president. I hate to say think about that, but think about that.

"Guess what? It still doesn't mean that Trump's positions on immigration or the second amendment are less viable. That's the part you'll never get (because you don't want to). "


You let your slip show with this post. No one was talking about his policy positions. This sums up Republicans in a nutshell.

President has policies you like: he can do anything he wants and you will forgive him for it.
President has policies you don't like: BENGHAZI!!!!!

I will engage with you on this as your post seems reasoned.

Being careful to skirt "what-about-ism", I lost general respect for the office of the president back to Clinton, who was the first President I really followed due to my age (I was in college and just entering the workforce). Carry that forward to Bush and Obama, and we really didn't improve much in integrity.

Take a deep breath and really think about that.

Do you believe Bush got us into a big mess in Iraq over questionable intelligence, for example?

Do you believe Obama's Iran deal was less than transparent, for example?

There are many other questionable things in all administrations but that's not the point of this thread.

I believe that almost all politicians are scumbags (R's, D's, all of them). Some of them are just more adept at hiding it, but that skill doesn't give the office of the president more value. That just makes it more sneaky - - to me at least.

To me, Trump saying out loud that Russia didn't interfere with the election is better than Obama getting caught on a hot mic telling Russian Dmitri Medvedev he would have more flexibility to negotiate on issues like missile defense after the 2012 election.

They are both liars and scum. One of them just hides it better and I think that's more dangerous.

So, yes, I no longer hold any politician in high regard due simply to their elected office. I care solely about their positions on the issues.

Would I love to have a wholesome person in the Whitehouse? You bet. Problem is, by definition, wholesome people can't amass that kind of power. It's sad, but it's true. Deals have to be made. Rings have to be kissed. Ignoring one's own personal value system is expected.

Taking it full circle, I abhor the fact that the attacks on Trump are presented from a position of moral superiority. MSNBC's Brian Williams is an admitted and proven liar, but every night he leads a gaggling pack idiots who attack Trump on his own morality. No, you do not get to do that.

I'd much prefer we not use personal attacks to undermine the issues. I get it, people don't like Trump's position on immigration, for example, so they want him out of office. Instead of attacking Trump personally to get at his immigration stance, let's debate how to improve immigration. Cover that 24/7 with facts on CNN and Fox. Or legitimately cover the $21.2 trillion dollars of national debt we have. Or how about a 24/7 primer on social security.

I know that's never going to happen so I will now forever look beyond the person and may indeed find myself supporting despicable human beings simply because they are on the correct side of the issues for me.

If you really think about it and you are intellectually honest, you will agree this is where we are today in our politics. There is no middle ground. There is no compromise.

We will vote for a convicted pedophile if that pedophile is also pro-choice. The alternative of a non-vote or a vote for a pro-life candidate is simply not acceptable. There is no other option.

Similarly, we will vote for a KKK grand wizard if that grand wizard is also pro-second amendment.

We are absolutely at the point where things are so fringe and so black and white that you are forced to ignore the candidate. We are not being given a choice between two decent human beings who have overlap on 75% of the issues. In that case, I might make a call on the integrity of the person.

Instead, we are given the choice between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. Both terrible, manipulative human beings, who are diametrically opposite on almost everything. In that case, you swallow hard and vote your issues. The alternative of a non-vote or a vote for a candidate who is opposed to what I support is simply not acceptable. There is no other option.

This is plain and simply the exact reason why Trump's approval doesn't change among R's, regardless of what is uncovered about him. They really could not care less about him as a person. He's simply a vessel...a means to getting their way.

Dems are no different.

Please think about this before beating me up.

NO COLUSION

My best friend’s sister’s boyfriend’s brother’s girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who’s going with a girl who saw Ferris pass-out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it’s pretty serious.

My best friend’s sister’s boyfriend’s brother’s girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who’s going with a girl who saw Ferris pass-out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it’s pretty serious.

Given that he says "No Collusion" at nearly every opportunity, the President doth protest too much, methinks.

Come on, not even a bit of doubt that Trump crossed the line? Is there even a tiny crack in your faith in him?

If not, please share with me how you can ignore the mountains of evidence that he is a person of little integrity and low morale character. What makes you think that his claim of "No Collusion" is no different?

Given that he says "No Collusion" at nearly every opportunity, the President doth protest too much, methinks.

Come on, not even a bit of doubt that Trump crossed the line? Is there even a tiny crack in your faith in him?

If not, please share with me how you can ignore the mountains of evidence that he is a person of little integrity and low morale character. What makes you think that his claim of "No Collusion" is no different?

An addendum to that post would be: When we have facts that show collusion, we'll cross that bridge. Until then, relying on conjecture and whisper-down-the-lane from CNN sources is not the way I do business. I await Mueller's report. He is, after all, investigating this, right?

To bastardize a quote from "A Few Good Men": CNN and Michael Cohen? Please tell me that you have something more, Lieutenant. This President is being investigated for treason. Please tell me the prosecutor hasn't pinned his hopes to Michael Cohen's word.

So let's continue to be silly on a Friday.

Trump has over 3,000 lies (untruths, fibs, false statements, exaggerations, alternative facts, whatever makes you feel better) in his first 466 days in office.

Cohen has been Trump's loyal fixer for years. And he's a "lawyer." And his office was raided.

What is Trump's motive? Same as always, do what's in the best for Trump (and a slothfully as possible). In this case get dirt on Hillary in 2016 and save his own ass now.

What is Cohen's motive? Save his ass from a big time jail sentence.

So Cohen, a loyal fixer, has turned on his former boss, in what we can assume is hope of immunity or a reduced sentence for whatever the reason for which his office was raided. That only works if he is telling the truth and can somehow prove it. Lying only makes his problem bigger.

Who is more likely telling the truth now? And therefore, who is lying?

Who is more likely telling the truth now? And therefore, who is lying?

Trump is the human equivalent of a fart joke. Half of everyone finds them hilarious, the other half can't for the life of them figure out why. There is no middle ground.

"He was elected because of his personality, not in spite of it. "

This.



The support for Trump is so baffling that it is difficult for any objective & intelligent person to wrap their heads around it. I get the "anyone but Hillary" crowd, but that alone does not explain approval ratings in the mid 40s 18 months after HRC no longer mattered.

DJRed wrote:

That wasn't a defense. That was, once again, pointing out that certain people are prone to making "a ha" posts thinking they've cracked the case, while they are really just overplaying their hand.

Trump lied about the affair. Trump's advisors and entire team lied about the affair. Everyone knows that. News flash: Dudes who cheat on their wives lie about it.

Guess what? It still doesn't mean that Trump's positions on immigration or the second amendment are less viable. That's the part you'll never get (because you don't want to).