NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill

Dec 7, 17 9:46

Post #1 of 48 (2199 views)

Anyone else getting a kick out of blue state liberals crying about the deduction changes in the tax bills?
http://www.bostonglobe.com/...e-comes-gop-tax-bill
https://www.nytimes.com/...x-bill-new-york.html

Boo Fucking Hoo. Oh you can only itemize up to $24K? You can only deduct on the first $500K of your fucking mortgage? Cry me a river...you either make enough money to support it, or your cost of living is being artificially inflated by these deductions. Look at those average SALT deductions in the NYT article...what these assholes need to understand is they ARE the rich! $60K in deductions in NYC, are you kidding me??? Your cost of living is out of whack and a serious correction is in order.

I say that as someone who closed on a $500K+ house 37 days ago and is in a top-5% income household living in MA. People in the suburbs around here have no fucking idea how the rest of the country lives, their bubble of comfortable living and rich neighbrs has deluded them into thinking they're not part of the wealthy they rail against. My taxes will go up, I did a back-of-napkin calculations and my wife and I would pay between $2-3K more depending on the bill...and guess what? We can afford it! I'd rather my sister and her husband, who combined don't make what I do and support three kids, get more of that money (and they will, they're the type that'll make out like bandits with this overhaul).

Ms. Metcalf said she dreaded the prospect of telling her youngest child, Genevieve, a high school senior, that the college of her choice was beyond their means.

Welcome to the struggles of the rest of the country, Ms. Metcalf! You're a history teacher at a CC, sorry but sometimes tough decisions need to be made, you think 90% of the country isn't worried that their kid can't go to the college of their choice? And I laugh at that because she's probably thinking about a college fund they put together so the precious child doesn't pay a dime...again, welcome to the rest of the country's struggles with higher ed. Maybe now these elite liberal communities will notice how fucked up higher ed costs are and the direct link to federal grant/loan money.

The bills aren't perfect and I won't pretend they are, but this is why Mitt Romney wouldn't divulge what deductions he'd eliminate with his tax overhaul plans in 2012. The wealthy liberals in their blue state bubbles don't even seem to understand they're part of 'the rich' they rail against with their Bernie Sanders stickers proudly displayed on their $60K Lexus's.

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 10:12

Post #2 of 48 (2160 views)

Preach it, my Masshole comrade.

I posted this article a year or two ago here in the LR in a health care thread - same mentality from the ones crying, same sense of schadenfreude on my end. I swear the period I lived in Cambridge made me move more to the conservative/libertarian side of the spectrum than the time I spent in north Florida.

"For years, Harvard’s experts on health economics and policy have advised presidents and Congress on how to provide health benefits to the nation at a reasonable cost. But those remedies will now be applied to the Harvard faculty, and the professors are in an uproar. Members of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences, the heart of the 378-year-old university, voted overwhelmingly in November to oppose changes that would require them and thousands of other Harvard employees to pay more for health care. The university says the increases are in part a result of the Obama administration’s Affordable Care Act, which many Harvard professors championed....

Richard F. Thomas, a Harvard professor of classics and one of the world’s leading authorities on Virgil, called the changes “deplorable, deeply regressive, a sign of the corporatization of the university.” Mary D. Lewis, a professor who specializes in the history of modern France and has led opposition to the benefit changes, said they were tantamount to a pay cut. “Moreover,” she said, “this pay cut will be timed to come at precisely the moment when you are sick, stressed or facing the challenges of being a new parent."

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 10:14

Post #3 of 48 (2153 views)

Too bad we don't allow national referendums to set our laws. We'd all be on beaches smoking Cuban cigars.

"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do."

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 10:20

Post #4 of 48 (2141 views)

Your meter seems stuck on :"envy". Couple points:

"Maybe now these elite liberal communities will notice how fucked up higher ed costs are"

Do you think that is not the case? Libs are at the vanguard of trying to overhaul college costs. The GOP's education platform pretty much ends with "vouchers". (actually, they now want to tax endowments, not sure of the economic/educational rationale).

Quote:

I'd rather my sister and her husband, who combined don't make what I do and support three kids, get more of that money (and they will, they're the type that'll make out like bandits with this overhaul).

Not really, they may get a small temporary lowering of their bill (having kids will help a bit). The folks who make out like bandits are at the very top, because most of them get a higher percentage tax cut which isn't sunsetted. I would be slightly more supportive, if this bill didn't selectively raise taxes on the upper-middle segment (~90-98 percentile) to pay for the largest tax cuts for the top 1-2%.

Edit to add: The potential loss of the ACA mandate may very well result in healthcare increases that eat up all of their tax gain. Bandits, indeed....

I don't personally care about this bill. I'm sure that I will pay a bit more. BTW, I have advocated for a drop to 500K for the HMD on this forum, as a way to stabilize housing prices. This bill contains a raft of tax shifts that will probably create a bigger sudden drop in real estate, which may very well be really doesn't help the math of this tax proposal. Sudden shifts result in misallocation of resources, which is economically inefficient. This bill has a host of unintended consequences (which are just beginning to be discovered) and is fiscally irresponsible in many levels.

Last edited by: oldandslow: Dec 7, 17 10:32

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 10:21

Post #5 of 48 (2134 views)

So you must be in favor of the tax bill because it will so help low income households, yes?

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 10:42

Post #6 of 48 (2092 views)

I largely agree with you. Just a small point to consider though:

A person buying a $2M home in my city will lose $60K in property tax deduction and ~$40K in interest deduction (assuming 20% down). So the price of the home is going to fall, perhaps significantly, simply because of the new tax structure.

Now your thought is probably similar to mine: All that is happening in an artificial subsidy is being removed, of course it hurts. But would the better solution be to have rolled the cut out over time? I think so...

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 10:51

Post #7 of 48 (2073 views)

I'll still itemize.

The potential loss of the state and local tax deduction is a big hit. But if at least $10k in property taxes can still be deducted, then the I probably break even or come out slightly ahead with the lower tax rates. But it will be close. (It would be a tax increase if the property tax deduction had been completely eliminated.)

But I also know quite a few people who are middle class and who will likely be paying higher taxes. Notwithstanding you wetting your panties over "blue state liberals" whining about increased taxes, in California it's largely GOP strongholds that will be adversely impacted. And it's their representatives who will be on the chopping block. So thank the GOP form making California more blue.

It will be interesting to see how the changes to the mortgage interest deduction and the limitation on the property tax deduction impact housing prices. (And if the tax bill generates the growth that Trump is promising, increased interest rates.) My guess is in the short term there will be a drop in prices, with not much impact in the long term. I don't think it will impact me, as I don't plan on selling or refinancing within the next few years. But if I were planning on selling soon, I'd probably be pissed.

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 10:53

Post #8 of 48 (2065 views)

in California it's largely GOP strongholds that will be adversely impacted.

How do you figure?

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [vitus979] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 10:56

Post #9 of 48 (2050 views)

vitus979 wrote:

in California it's largely GOP strongholds that will be adversely impacted.

How do you figure?

He still thinks the rich people are all Republicans?

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 10:58

Post #10 of 48 (2042 views)

Quote:

Libs are at the vanguard of trying to overhaul college costs.

They’re working on making free for the actual students, but the liberal policies on education have only made the cost go through the roof.

It’s just that someone else is paying.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Duffy] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 11:04

Post #11 of 48 (2026 views)

Quote:

They’re working on making free for the actual students, but the liberal policies on education have only made the cost go through the roof.

Lots of ideas from various libs, many are debated. You can go ahead and find fault with them, but I'm not hearing solutions from you. At this point, there are only crickets on the GOP side. Brownie's point was not that libs were pushing bad ideas, it was that they were wholly indifferent to the issue (which is false).

Last edited by: oldandslow: Dec 7, 17 11:06

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [vitus979] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 11:10

Post #12 of 48 (2014 views)

vitus979 wrote:

in California it's largely GOP strongholds that will be adversely impacted.

How do you figure?

One, because that's what's been reported. http://www.ocregister.com/...an-dana-rohrabacher/

Two, GOP strongholds in California are also likely to be districts with a higher percentage of upper middle class and wealthier constituents. Places like Orange County (outside of Santa Ana) and San Diego and Sacramento suburbs. Also foothill communities in LA and SB counties. That's why Reps. Issa, Rohrabacher, and McClintock voted against the House bill.

There are also less affluent GOP areas in California, namely the Central Valley and rural areas, that probably aren't as adversely impacted.

Or maybe you could just go with Duffy's insightful answer.

Last edited by: AlanShearer: Dec 7, 17 11:16

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 11:19

Post #13 of 48 (1983 views)

oldandslow wrote:

Your meter seems stuck on :"envy". Couple points:

You might have missed where I live among these folks...that said I don't envy their delusion.

Quote:

"Maybe now these elite liberal communities will notice how fucked up higher ed costs are"

Do you think that is not the case? Libs are at the vanguard of trying to overhaul college costs. The GOP's education platform pretty much ends with "vouchers". (actually, they now want to tax endowments, not sure of the economic/educational rationale).

My point is if these upper-middle and upper-class liberals lose deductions that force them to have to take out loans for their kids' higher ed they might understand the pains felt by the rest of the country. In trying to 'help', liberals in government have created this massive bubble sector, toying with the youngest taxpayers who are just starting out, many with $100K or more in debt. Who pushed for these federal grant and loan programs that are a MASSIVE handout to liberal institutions paid for by middle class and lower households? Now you're saying they're at the vanguard of overhauling college costs? That's like saying liberals are at the forefront of overhauling the ACHA...you can't pass a pile of garbage then say 'we're the only ones who care, trying to fix this broken system'.

Quote:

Quote:

I'd rather my sister and her husband, who combined don't make what I do and support three kids, get more of that money (and they will, they're the type that'll make out like bandits with this overhaul).

Not really, they may get a small temporary lowering of their bill (having kids will help a bit). The folks who make out like bandits are at the very top, because most of them get a higher percentage tax cut which isn't sunsetted. I would be slightly more supportive, if this bill didn't selectively raise taxes on the upper-middle segment (~90-98 percentile) to pay for the largest tax cuts for the top 1-2%.

Edit to add: The potential loss of the ACA mandate may very well result in healthcare increases that eat up all of their tax gain. Bandits, indeed....

I don't personally care about this bill. I'm sure that I will pay a bit more. BTW, I have advocated for a drop to 500K for the HMD on this forum, as a way to stabilize housing prices. This bill contains a raft of tax shifts that will probably create a bigger sudden drop in real estate, which may very well be really doesn't help the math of this tax proposal. Sudden shifts result in misallocation of resources, which is economically inefficient. This bill has a host of unintended consequences (which are just beginning to be discovered) and is fiscally irresponsible in many levels.

OK I wasn't clear and it's my own fault. I don't like the proposals and do think the changes for the upper tax brackets are crap. My focus was on the deductions being overhauled/eliminated to help pay for tax cuts, specifically those changes that 'target' blue state liberals who rail against the rich but are, themselves, rich.

Last edited by: Brownie28: Dec 7, 17 11:25

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 11:21

Post #14 of 48 (1977 views)

This, even in the bluest areas, the richest enclaves tend to skew purple. For every movie star that folks fixate on there are 2-3 nameless executives that get ignored.

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 11:24

Post #15 of 48 (1972 views)

oldandslow wrote:

Quote:

They’re working on making free for the actual students, but the liberal policies on education have only made the cost go through the roof.

Lots of ideas from various libs, many are debated. You can go ahead and find fault with them, but I'm not hearing solutions from you. At this point, there are only crickets on the GOP side. Brownie's point was not that libs were pushing bad ideas, it was that they were wholly indifferent to the issue (which is false).

My larger point on higher ed is that liberals created this situation, and the rich blue-state suburban types don't really have any understanding of how crippling it is for middle class households. They're able to pocket away $150K over 15 years to pay their kids tuition and while they gripe about those costs they don't have the slightest clue what the impact is to the middle class and below, who can't possibly save that money and so the kids are saddled with massive, massive debt out of college.

They 'know' about the issue from what they read in the NYT, WaPo, Boston Globe and the like. But they don't feel the real pain of this bubble they helped create.

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 11:25

Post #16 of 48 (1970 views)

I don't think any of that actually addresses the point, though, does it?

Sure, whatever GOP strongholds exist in California might be adversely affected. You made it sound like they're going to be the only ones, though. San Fransisco? LA? Etc etc?

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [vitus979] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 11:26

Post #17 of 48 (1964 views)

vitus979 wrote:

I don't think any of that actually addresses the point, though, does it?

Sure, whatever GOP strongholds exist in California might be adversely affected. You made it sound like they're going to be the only ones, though. San Fransisco? LA? Etc etc?

I think it clarifies my point.

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 11:46

Post #18 of 48 (1939 views)

That's fair.

Whatcha think about the charge that the changes were deliberately aimed at blue states?

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [vitus979] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 11:57

Post #19 of 48 (1927 views)

vitus979 wrote:

That's fair.

Whatcha think about the charge that the changes were deliberately aimed at blue states?

I think that’s true in a sense. It exposes more painfully how high the taxes are in these places and it also makes it so the fed isnt subsidizing the cost of these taxes anymore.

My personal taxes will probably go up over all, btw. That being said there needs to pressure on this state (CA) to get it together. Our state leaders are completely out of control.

Completely.

Think about this, we have spent at least $3.5 billion on our “high speed” rail project so far and not one single inch of high speed rail track has been laid down.

Where’s all that money going?

And, seriously, we’re supposedly going to build high speed rail. Rail. Trains.

By the time it gets done (if ever) we will have self driving cars.

And democrats call themselves “progressive”.

Fucking scam.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [vitus979] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 12:08

Post #20 of 48 (1910 views)

vitus979 wrote:

That's fair.

Whatcha think about the charge that the changes were deliberately aimed at blue states?

Is there any question that these changes were deliberately aimed at high tax, blue states?

That doesn't mean that there isn't a legitimate policy reason for eliminating a deduction. But in my mind, there's absolutely no doubt that there was a need to partially offset or pay for some of the tax cuts and that these deductions were in large part selected for that purpose because they wouldn't significantly impact the final vote tally.

The original proposal in the House was to eliminate the deductions for both state income and property taxes. The property tax deduction was only partially restored after the House realized the bill might not pass if it lost GOP support in CA, NY, and NJ.

The Senate bill also originally proposed to eliminate both deductions, and my understanding that the GOP didn't care because there weren't any GOP senators from those states.

In other words, this was largely about counting votes, and the deductions were on the chopping block because they wouldn't result in the loss of any significant GOP votes.

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Duffy] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 12:18

Post #21 of 48 (1890 views)

I remember during the election there was some discussion about whether California paid it's fair share of federal taxes, whatever that meant. One on hand the argument was the California subsidized the rest of the country, paying more in taxes to the feds than it received back. The counter primarily was that that analysis didn't consider the fact that the federal government was effectively subsidizing California's taxes through the state and local tax deduction and, when that subsidy was included, it was either a wash or that California was actually getting more back than it paid in. I thought the counter argument had some merit.

But will the elimination of the deduction for state and local taxes, and the limitations on the property tax deduction, I'm wondering if there will be a greater push as well as a stronger argument that California will now deserve a larger slice of the pie.

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 12:48

Post #22 of 48 (1849 views)

Quote:

They're able to pocket away $150K over 15 years to pay their kids tuition and while they gripe about those costs they don't have the slightest clue what the impact is to the middle class and below, who can't possibly save that money and so the kids are saddled with massive, massive debt out of college.

Stop, you are wallowing in misplaced blame and anger. One, our present college situation is due to a host of policies placed to address inequities in the face of full opposition to addressing them. The result: half-hearted measures which only slightly diminish inequities. We as a society created it, since we accepted a whole set of policies in lieu of real solutions. I ask you the same question that I asked Duffy. What is your solution??? When you come up with it, your complaints will have a bit more legitimacy. Until then, you are merely blamecasting.

Two, Really, not the "slightest clue?" Virtually everyone I know deals with this issue, or has relatives that are dealing with it. It is appalling, and folks have all sorts of ideas to solve it. They are blocked by our present gridlocked system. In the absence of solutions, we play a game that is undeniably rigged (and rich folks, left and right, play it well....). Your friends/acquaintances must be completely clueless....

Three, read "Dream Hoarders" for a less angry, but stronger case about how the top quintile have had so much "winning."

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 13:48

Post #23 of 48 (1809 views)

oldandslow wrote:

Quote:

They're able to pocket away $150K over 15 years to pay their kids tuition and while they gripe about those costs they don't have the slightest clue what the impact is to the middle class and below, who can't possibly save that money and so the kids are saddled with massive, massive debt out of college.

Stop, you are wallowing in misplaced blame and anger. One, our present college situation is due to a host of policies placed to address inequities in the face of full opposition to addressing them.

If you accept that there will be inequities in life then the policies put in place decades ago were a mistake. Community colleges, scholarship programs, local grant money and the like are and were in place to help mitigate inequalities, it's when federal grant and loan programs were put in place that these inequalities grew.

Quote:

The result: half-hearted measures which only slightly diminish inequities. We as a society created it, since we accepted a whole set of policies in lieu of real solutions. I ask you the same question that I asked Duffy. What is your solution???

Now? I don't have the faintest idea if I'm being honest...this system is totally broken and needs to come crashing down, imo. I think on-line programs and a return to the trades might help stem the tide but my god is this a clusterfuck. I think federal loan and grant money needs to be slowed rolled back, and let families make the tough decisions until market pressures return tuition to reasonable levels without the inflation from federal money. It's a shit solution, but until that money is pulled out of the system that system will remain broken.

Quote:

Two, Really, not the "slightest clue?" Virtually everyone I know deals with this issue, or has relatives that are dealing with it. It is appalling, and folks have all sorts of ideas to solve it. They are blocked by our present gridlocked system. In the absence of solutions, we play a game that is undeniably rigged (and rich folks, left and right, play it well....). Your friends/acquaintances must be completely clueless....

Three, read "Dream Hoarders" for a less angry, but stronger case about how the top quintile have had so much "winning."

Re: the bolded, when you say 'deals with this issue' do you mean they're saving for their kids education, or that their kids are getting hammered with $200K in loans? I work in IT, the people I work with are able to save--begrudgingly--for tuition. Maybe not enough to eliminate loans but the people I've talked to, they cover most tuition. My buddies all have young kids but have savings programs in place, who knows what it'll cover but all my friends are making minimum six figures with wives who work, they'll figure it out. My in-laws, living in one of those liberal MA bubble suburbs, put four kids through liberal arts degrees without loans, their friends in town put kids through Princeton, Brown, NYU, Amherst, those are the ones I've heard of. Again, I live in a rich liberal enclave of people who don't know what 'real' is. They're saving and sacrificing, sure, but they have the means to do it and their kids aren't graduating with that massive debt hanging around their necks.

So yes, my friends and acquaintances are generally quite clueless, beyond what they read in the papers. That's my point: it's a giant liberal utopia in the suburbs here of people who have absolutely no fucking clue what struggling is.

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 14:30

Post #24 of 48 (1783 views)

"Libs are at the vanguard of trying to overhaul college costs."

Havard's Endowment >$1,000,000,000
Yearly tuition increases higher than inflation
Annual taxes paid $0

They are quite the leaders.

Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 14:36

Post #25 of 48 (1772 views)

Quote:

If you accept that there will be inequities in life then the policies put in place decades ago were a mistake.

Fallacy of the excluded middle. Inequities-yes, No policies should ever address it. Inequities-No, then any policy is okay.

Quote:

it's when federal grant and loan programs were put in place that these inequalities grew.

Very debatable. You and I don't have access to the parallel universe in which grants and loans didn't exist. Our present wealth/education/opportunity gaps fully explain growing inequality, and have arguably been mitigated in small ways by increased access that grants and loans afforded. It might have come crashing down earlier in that parallel universe, but we can't know.

Quote:

What is your solution???
Now? I don't have the faintest idea if I'm being honest...this system is totally broken and needs to come crashing down, imo.

Thanks, that is an option, and better than merely blaming (which is the LR bread and butter)

Quote:

I think federal loan and grant money needs to be slowed rolled back, and let families make the tough decisions until market pressures return tuition to reasonable levels without the inflation from federal money.

You are right, that is a shit solution. Radically reduce access to all poor and middle-class families, and hope that the small drops in cost suddenly allow better access than now???? Yikes, stick to online teaching ideas....

Quote:

Virtually everyone I know deals with this issue, or has relatives that are dealing with it.
Re: the bolded, when you say 'deals with this issue' do you mean they're saving for their kids education, or that their kids are getting hammered with $200K in loans?

Both. Why? Some folks are really struggling, other aren't. Even if they aren't, most folks have come from somewhere, and have family all over the place. The idea that empathy is completely impossible, unless one experiences it first-hand is simply wrong. You may not accept that, but you seem to be profoundly disdainful of your friends. There are better ways to view the world and your community.

Case in point, my niece is being crushed by student loans. Luckily, after waitressing for two years, she can move out of her parents' house .... because she is ready to move, and she has access to insiders in tech industries (my wife and I). Like I have said for years, the game is rigged. Lots of folks on the left and right know how to play it, even if we know it needs to be changed. This tax plan (which is economically the wrong plan at the wrong time), simply will change the rules of the game slightly.

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