Yup this is where people are immediating leaping to while still ignorant of the staute.

That would be twisting the meaning to essentially make it useless.

I don't think there's any question that if a black person is attacked because he's black, then that could be a hate crime.

Likewise, I don't think there's any question that if a white person were attacked because the attacker perceived him as black, either because of complexion, hair, dress, speech, etc., that would also be a hate crime.

But what about the white sympathizer, who is attacked because in the mind of the attacker, he's a traitor to his race? Isn't that attack still on account of the victim's race?

How so?

No he hasn't. As I said on page 1, he was booked. He will not be charged until his arraignment on Monday.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

My understanding (based on the reports and the information we currently know), is that this guy is a resident of Ohio, who drove to Virginia, where he engaged in the act. It would not take a huge leap to tie in a claim of crossing state lines to commit a crime, which would add a layer of potential federal jurisdiction. While I do not like the feds getting involved in purely state matters, this is a situation where federal jurisdiction, should they choose to engage, would be rational. Again, assuming the facts reported thus far are accurate.

Add that the federal hate crimes act and you certainly have a rational basis for federal prosecution.

But, keep in mind, if they do this, the federal prosecutor has to prove intent (i.e., that he specifically targeted individuals based on race). That adds a layer of proof that may not be worth pursuing. VA does not seem hesitant to throw the book at this guy, so go after him federally? That said, you can always charge him with federal crimes and state crimes, which I bet they will do. What typically happens is the state waits to see what sentence he gets in federal court, then decides whether to pursue the state charges.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I could not agree more.

The reason why a person committed a crime is always taken into consideration at the sentencing stage. I see no reason for specific laws that seem to "place value" on the victim more in some cases than others.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

With regard to crossing State lines, would they have to demonstrate that he deliberately crossed State lines with the intent of committing this crime, and then deliberately did so? Otherwise, any time anyone committed a crime in a State other than the one they primarily reside, it could be a Federal crime.

Seems like it's more likely this guy crossed State lines to participate in the protest, and the running over of people was spur of the moment.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Yes. You would have to show he used federal means to commit the crime. With the Boston Bombers, for example, they engaged in interstate commerce in buying the parts for the bomb. In kidnapping cases, they kidnap someone, then drive across state lines with the victim, or then cross state lines with the intent to kidnap and commit the crime. Every once in a while, my dad (retired FBI agent) would get involved in a local robbery that happened in IL, MN, or MI if the perps then fled across state lines with the stolen goods (although in a lot of those cases, the FBI just picked them up and turned them back over the local cops where the crime took place).

So, this requires another level of proof for the federal prosecutor. Of course, it they charge a federal crime, they don't have to worry about that, but then it add the layer of specific intent for a hate crime.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Ok, but at this point there doesn't seem to be any evidence that that's what happened.


Another interesting hypothetical, but again, not pertinent, I don't think, at this point.


In my mind, no. It's an attack based on hatred of the person's belief. He didn't attack the victim, in that scenario, because he hates the victim's race. He attacked the victim because he believes something different than the attacker.

That said, again, not pertinent at this point. So far, we only know that someone, alleged to be the man in custody, ran his car through a group of pedestrians, hit a few of them and another car, then back away and fled the scene, and that his actions resulted in a number of injuries and one fatality. We don't know if he plowed through them intentionally. If he did, we don't know if he did it because of their skin color, or their beliefs, or because he was just a psycho who wanted to kill some people. We don't know if he did it because he was scared, or if he lost control of his vehicle, or if he thought they'd get out of his way, or if he saw Islamic terrorists use the tactic and decided to mimic, or etc, etc. Hence my point, which is that it's too early to be demanding federal hate crimes prosecution and the death penalty, as the previous poster did.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

The victims are most certainly of protected classes, probably at least 3, as are you. One does not need to be a minority to be of a protected class. You know that right?

Good stuff here. 1 dead and 5 in critical condition and the LR is hand-wringing over possible over-charging of the Nazi boy and making, what looks to me, like aspersions on the physical appearance of the dead woman? Or did I read that wrong?

True, but just because every person is a member of a protected class (or several) that doesn't mean a crime committed against them is a crime against a protected class. If a black person is mugged for his money, it isn't automatically a violation of the protected class status of race.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Agreed, it was the stupidity of his comment that the victim was not of a protected class. It's a pervasive thought that only minoritites are protected and the majority are not. I'm not sure if it's intentional or borne of ignorance. The fact that windy is a lawyer, I think, I'd lean towards option 1.

No, he isn't.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

My mistake. I always felt he put himself out there like he was an in house corporate lawyer type... then maybe it's category 2.

I don't know any lawyers who drink Zima ...

Back to the topic - assuming this is true, it will bolster support for charging this as a hate crime.

The 20-year-old Fields had been photographed hours earlier carrying the emblem of Vanguard America, one of the hate groups that organized the "take America back" campaign in protest of the removal of a Confederate statue. The group on Sunday denied any association with the suspect, even as a separate hate group that organized Saturday's rally pledged on social media to organize future events that would be "bigger than Charlottesville."

https://www.yahoo.com/...alist-062152087.html

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Also, expect an insanity defense:

James Alex Fields Jr. also confided that he had been diagnosed with schizophrenia when he was younger and had been prescribed an anti-psychotic medication, Derek Weimer said in an interview with The Associated Press.

https://www.yahoo.com/...alist-062152087.html

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

FIFY

I made no comments about the dead woman. Simply that rob is wanting this guy burned at the stake alive without even having a trial.

He just posted a picture of a car hitting people. Like that is some kind of proof of murder.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

And the beginnings of a defense here:

"James Alex Fields Jr. also confided that he had been diagnosed with schizophrenia when he was younger and had been prescribed an anti-psychotic medication, Derek Weimer said in an interview with The Associated Press."

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

what do you think stacy koon got convicted of? the cop who shot walter scott in south carolina? cops get convicted of federal civil rights violations routinely.


them too. as you say, it is the right of white supremacists to assemble peaceably. but hate speech is tricky, at least as it has been interpreted by the courts.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

But there is a panoply of victims it's not like he targeted one protected class => not a hate crime

I clarified in a subsequent post. I don't identify as a lawyer.

You answered your own question. Stacey (with an "e") Koon was a police officer acting under government authority. When an on duty police officer violates a person's civil rights, it is a federal civil rights violation.



EDIT TO ADD: It is a violation of 42 USC 1983.

Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR