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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
I'm confused about 1 thing. Why does it matter where you hear about the issue, if the issue is happening at races. Are you saying because others "accept" it, that it's not a problem?

Again, life is way way to short to waste this kind of negative energy on a hobby. Especially since so few are willing to become officials and try to help, rather than just complain.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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A GruberAssist is a small electric motor that can put 200 watts into your pedals for an hour. Or less for longer. And the new model has apparently gotten rid of the high pitched whine that gives away it's presence.

There is no difference, in theory, between getting free watts from a draft vs getting free watts from a motor. So, would you feel the same way about competing in a race where a significant percentage of the field were getting free watts from a motor? Would you expect WTC to take action to combat this type of cheating?
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [kny] [ In reply to ]
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That is a terrible argument. While it seems to make sense at the surface, there is a precedent for drafting in draft legal races and mass start cycling events. There is no precedent for electronic motors on bicycles.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:
A GruberAssist is a small electric motor that can put 200 watts into your pedals for an hour. Or less for longer. And the new model has apparently gotten rid of the high pitched whine that gives away it's presence.

There is no difference, in theory, between getting free watts from a draft vs getting free watts from a motor. So, would you feel the same way about competing in a race where a significant percentage of the field were getting free watts from a motor? Would you expect WTC to take action to combat this type of cheating?

These year in and year out what ifs are just a waste, and these are what makes our sport look like a joke to many.

.

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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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So are you saying there is a drafting issue or not?

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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [patsullivan6630] [ In reply to ]
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patsullivan6630 wrote:
That is a terrible argument. While it seems to make sense at the surface, there is a precedent for drafting in draft legal races and mass start cycling events. There is no precedent for electronic motors on bicycles.

I disagree. The analogy is apt. The GruberAssist analogy is a hypothetical to make a point, and the existence of drafting in draft-legal races or mass start cycling events irrelevant. If a significant percentage of the field is cheating and the race management takes no real steps to stop it, would h2ofun continue to not care as he does not care about cheating via drafting and WTC's apparent lack of desire to enforce it.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
So are you saying there is a drafting issue or not?

I do not think there is a drafting issue.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
My one suggestion for Kona - just keep going straight up Palani on the bike from the start at the pier to the upper levels road and carry on to the Waikoloa road and back down to the Queen K - rest of the bike stays the same. You may not have to go all the way up to Hawi for the turn around now.

What you get is over 4,000 ft of climbing right out of T1!! That will do a great job of breaking things up early on!


While you're at it: add 50% to the swim, 3.6 mi instead of 2.4 mi. We know the swim is disproportionally short, and that would help spread out people into T1.
Last edited by: deh20: Sep 8, 14 12:24
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:
patsullivan6630 wrote:
That is a terrible argument. While it seems to make sense at the surface, there is a precedent for drafting in draft legal races and mass start cycling events. There is no precedent for electronic motors on bicycles.


I disagree. The analogy is apt. The GruberAssist analogy is a hypothetical to make a point, and the existence of drafting in draft-legal races or mass start cycling events irrelevant. If a significant percentage of the field is cheating and the race management takes no real steps to stop it, would h2ofun continue to not care as he does not care about cheating via drafting and WTC's apparent lack of desire to enforce it.

Yep, just tired of hearing the sky is falling. Are you a race official? If not, why not?

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:
patsullivan6630 wrote:
That is a terrible argument. While it seems to make sense at the surface, there is a precedent for drafting in draft legal races and mass start cycling events. There is no precedent for electronic motors on bicycles.


I disagree. The analogy is apt. The GruberAssist analogy is a hypothetical to make a point, and the existence of drafting in draft-legal races or mass start cycling events irrelevant. If a significant percentage of the field is cheating and the race management takes no real steps to stop it, would h2ofun continue to not care as he does not care about cheating via drafting and WTC's apparent lack of desire to enforce it.

Yes, but the format of the current WTC events almost ensures drafting will occur, there is no similar paradigm for using the GruberAssist device. There is a difference between using GruberAssist and being on a road with so many other cyclists that getting the low-pressure draft effect is unavoidable. One is very clearly cheating, the other is a result of how the race is set up. Besides, even in draft legal races using the GruberAssist device would be illegal for obvious reasons.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [patsullivan6630] [ In reply to ]
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patsullivan6630 wrote:
kny wrote:
patsullivan6630 wrote:
That is a terrible argument. While it seems to make sense at the surface, there is a precedent for drafting in draft legal races and mass start cycling events. There is no precedent for electronic motors on bicycles.


I disagree. The analogy is apt. The GruberAssist analogy is a hypothetical to make a point, and the existence of drafting in draft-legal races or mass start cycling events irrelevant. If a significant percentage of the field is cheating and the race management takes no real steps to stop it, would h2ofun continue to not care as he does not care about cheating via drafting and WTC's apparent lack of desire to enforce it.


Yes, but the format of the current WTC events almost ensures drafting will occur, there is no similar paradigm for using the GruberAssist device. There is a difference between using GruberAssist and being on a road with so many other cyclists that getting the low-pressure draft effect is unavoidable. One is very clearly cheating, the other is a result of how the race is set up. Besides, even in draft legal races using the GruberAssist device would be illegal for obvious reasons.

Ok, so if the format of WTC events ensures that cheating will occur then WTC either needs to change the rules or change the format of their events. But to tacitly accept cheating degrades the validity of the event, particularly a so-called championship.

h20fun - I am not a race official because that is not how I want to spend my time. However, I feel I have done more than enough to give back to the triathlon community.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [kny] [ In reply to ]
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I agree in principle, there is no practical way to prevent the draft effect with that many cyclists on the road so the rules should be changed. I bring up mass start bicycling events because that is what the bike start more closely resembles in these large events. In UCI mass start events drafting is legal. Obviously in time-trials it is not allowed, there is also little to no opportunity to draft in a UCI time trial. Unless you can meter out the cyclists after they get out of the water, the bike start is de-facto mass-start, mass-start rules should apply. This would be preferable to having a rule that is impossible to enforce.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [patsullivan6630] [ In reply to ]
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Draft legal bike course will never get implemented. Way to easy to stay status quo and just leave the bitching/discussion to ST and watch as the same athletes who races 1 draft fest, turns around and registers for another one an year later.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
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http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Probably you are right, the uproar from AG'ers would be epic if they changed to a draft legal format and required UCI rules for mass-start. Better business to not upset the masses and continue to annoy the purists.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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I was racing yesterday and this how bad it was...at least 7 groups of peloton riders came flying past in the middle of the bike course. The beginning I don't count because we all get stacked there. It was so bad that at one point as a peloton was consuming me we happen to pass a penalty tent and the guy manning it yelled "SEPARATE DAMN IT". Thats how bad it was... Crazy but I will sleep good knowing I raced clean. Not sure about the rest...

A friend and I were discussing it later and equates it to dopping. It's like they feel like if they don't do it you can't keep up with the lead age groupers to win. Very sad.

Athletes have to decide to cheat or not until WTC puts 100 refs on motorcycles on the course.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [cobragolf79] [ In reply to ]
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You could put a ref on a bike every 100 feet out there. It doesn't matter a lick unless they issue penalties. That is where I feel enforcement falls down. I wasn't at MT this past weekend, but I read Dev's account and it matches my experiences in other races, just on a greater scale.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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rcmioga wrote:

-something else?

enforce the rules.

enforce the rules with tons of motos, drones, etc. Crowdsource and outsource enforcement to anyone with a camera... cameras on bikes, cameras on 'CrossCopters, cameras on bystanders.

enforce rules that hurt. 8min for first offense. Penalty run miles in T2. One draft no WC eligibility penalties, etc.


drafting is not inevitable. Especially not if you pass a lot.

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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [cobragolf79] [ In reply to ]
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It's like they feel like if they don't do it you can't keep up with the lead age groupers to win. //

They would be right in feeling that way. YOu said it yourself, just you alone saw 7 peletons go by you, what chance do most have to podium if they are not in one of those packs??
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
It's like they feel like if they don't do it you can't keep up with the lead age groupers to win. //

They would be right in feeling that way. YOu said it yourself, just you alone saw 7 peletons go by you, what chance do most have to podium if they are not in one of those packs??

Gosh, where have I heard endurance athletes say "I had to break the rules in order to be competitive" before?

At least we know that Antonio Colom didn't draft his way to an AG win.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
BDoughtie wrote:
So are you saying there is a drafting issue or not?


I do not think there is a drafting issue.

.


And yet, you are posting prolifically on 2 separate threads (one of which YOU started) on this very topic.



edit: spelling.


float , hammer , and jog

Last edited by: Murphy'sLaw: Sep 8, 14 16:35
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [craigj532] [ In reply to ]
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Gosh, where have I heard endurance athletes say "I had to break the rules in order to be competitive" before? //

Dont mistake my comment to imply that i condone what is going on. I'm just saying how it is at many championship races in the AG ranks. We can each do what we can individually to pressure the powers to be to do something, but that has not worked for a very long time. So there is a whole generation of triathletes that draft in every single race, it has always been part of racing to them. Then there is the old guard watching all this, and most just say fuck it after a dozen races where it is a draftfest, and join in. So the reality is that for most to podium, they will have to draft. For those in Colom's AG, they will have to draft and dope to beat him. Drafting won't do it alone, he has too many years under his belt on the juice, and nothing shows me that he is still not leaning that way. There is maybe one or two that could knock him off the top legally, we will see if they can pull it off, I sure hope so. It won't be justice for all, but sweet revenge for one or two guys at least..
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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rcmioga wrote:
I wasn't up at the 70.3 WCs at MT today but read about the drafting. I've been to 4 WTC WC events (Kona twice and the 70.3s twice--Clearwater and Vegas) so that plus my reading of all of the ST posts on drafting at these events is what I'm leaning on for the following observations (and to be clear, I'm very much BOP at the WC races and so I generally have no one to draft off of even if I wanted to so in a sense, I'm just speculating here):

- I do think most folks in triathlon, especially those who spend enough time to get good enough at it to race at the WC level (but who are not pro and don't make any money from this activity) are people who believe in rules and who are not cheaters. This includes the drafting rule(s).

- In most races, these folks in fact follow the rules pretty much to the letter. (I know there are some who don't but I'm talking about the majority here)

- However, at Kona especially, and at most 70.3WC venues (Las Vegas was different) there are so many athletes racing that are so close to each other in ability on the Swim/Bike, and the Bike course is relatively tame, that it becomes very difficult not to violate the drafting rules (when 20 people pass you and you have to drop back and then go 1.2-1.4X your goal power to get back to where you were--only to have to repeat---this becomes a challenge to just accept)

-These folks adapt to the situation and then begin to bend the rules because everyone else is doing the same and the alternative of playing by the strict letter of the rules seems inherently unfair and is competitively very costly.

-So draft packs form--a statistical analysis of swim exit times and prior bike splits leads one to believe it's inevitable.

-The refs do as good a job as they can but you're talking about policing 2000-3000 people in a dynamic environment where that policing requires observation under sometimes challenging conditions and always requires judgement--which is inherently different for each ref.

-Competitors who see this and are upset about this either complain about those "drafting" or the refs or the lack of refs.

My view is that drafting at the WTC WC level is pretty much a given, even with good intent on most people's part and lots of referees, unless we go to a very different start approach (TT for example). The changes at Kona this year for AGers reflect a bit of this viewpoint...

So our options are to:

--accept it as a design flaw of the WTC WC and especially Kona (not saying to not police it but recognize that it will happen)

--accept it period--don't police it.

-make some significant changes in swim start format (people at Kona are so good you could spread the start out over 3-4 hours--old people first)

-boycott it

-something else?

I remember when the WTC announced the move from Clearwater and people around here were shouting from the roof tops rejoicing in the fact that any location besides Clearwater would improve, if not outright resolve, the drafting issue. Some said they turned down slots because Clearwater was a joke for a championship venue. Others said they would race WTC 70.3 events again and attempt to qualify now that it wasn't in Clearwater. But the funniest thing I recall is some of the same people (not you) in this thread, who raced this weekend complaining yet again.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev is correct, 6-8 min. between waves would drake a world of difference. At USAT Nationals they had that gap on a 40K course with 3000 athletes and it was perfect. But it sucked to wait so long and it would change the start/finish times for a full IM or Half and give a potential advantage to the early waves.

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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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It's not a fact of life, just a poor design. Yesterday there were 247 men 40-44 all in the same wave with all waves 3-4 mins apart. All these athletes with similar power to weight ratios, at a world championship race (fast dudes) and they wonder why there are issues with drafting? Ridiculous.

ITU got this right at the Chicago race, 226 men M40-44, split into 2 waves 20 mins apart. I didn't see any drafting on a 40k dead flat course. I agree all the waiting around does suck, but if people want a clean race that's what needs to be done. It can be done, but some tough choices will need to be made.

Yesterday the drafting was horrendous, I thought it was just as bad if not worse than Clearwater. It's like putting a kid in a candy store.

ITU got it right with this schedule:

http://chicago.triathlon.org/event_info/schedule
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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In your scenario, how does someone go from being the victim of being passed by 20 people to being in the middle of a peloton on their bullhorns for a significant amount of time?

AndyF
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