Here's my own mini "case study". So how would the HR vs Power guys each explain this file from my last 70.3 bike leg and run leg? How do I explain what physiologically was happening. MY HR was 10-15bpm higher than I normally see in training at the same pace and lower levels and it took 30 minutes to settle down. Before you just say HRM error... when I've seen an error before, it's usually reading a lot higher than this. If it is error, then how am I supposed to use HR for any type of useful data.

Bike:
http://www.trainingpeaks.com/...FQ5DJQNWT34LQPIJPJEQ
Oh... and it's a Stages PM... so of course my power data is complete crap.

Race simulation Ride (full race kit) 2 weeks earlier
http://www.trainingpeaks.com/...TMPHSYTAN5OMYUHQAY6M

Run:
http://www.trainingpeaks.com/...WYGNPIMBXLF76DN3XTWE

Open 1/2 Mary 3 weeks earlier:
http://www.trainingpeaks.com/...3JFV5AGPILPPWCEJJ3L4

Now a Brick run 1 week later, 2 weeks before the 70.3
http://www.trainingpeaks.com/...YEO6XKWAQOSYK2I7LCAQ


Now do you see why I generally believe that using HR for pacing or overall measurement of training stress to be total crap? From the examples above, pace (with elevation) running and power for the bike are far more useful.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Who is arguing heart rate versus power? I'm arguing you should use both.

I must have misunderstood some earlier posts. I still think I showed some interesting examples that demonstrate why some will question the value of HR. Be interesting to see what the expert opinion is on racing HR vs. training HR.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Why and how? My HR strap broke about 8 months ago. Havent cared to replace it, training by pace/power/swim speed and RPE.

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Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede

The opinion of many'experts' is that if you know power then heart rate is at best irellevant and at worst misleading.

In order to understand the relationship between power and heart rate you need to look at both.

We are also reaching a point where the cost of regular blood tests for hormone levels etc, and the measurement of blood lactate in real time or at least after important training efforts is no longer prohibitive. Certainly not when compared to the cost of purchasing and keeping a power meter working reliably.

More attention should be paid to the response to to training. Power output is only one part of the picture.

You wouldn't train a horse without looking at how the animal responds to the training dose. They are worth far too much money. Why then only look at the power output of humans?

I'm not an "expert" in this area, I'm an expert (or at least some people - e.g., USAC, USOC, EIS, a 2015 ProTour squad, etc. - seem to think so). Moreover, I collected both heart rate and power data for nearly a decade before ditching the strap.

You seem to be arguing just for the sake of arguing. You have done a very poor job of stating what areas you disagree with and being consistent. And, you have offered no better solutions or options. You also deliberately misinterpret statements for your own purposes.

Many find HR misleading when it comes to cycling. You have an issue with a few percent difference between indoor and outdoor FTP but then push a measure that can vary by a much larger percentage with no reason.

I've learned a few things from Andy about physiology, and for that I appreciate his presence on the forum. But as a 'non-expert' in psychology, I'm even more grateful for the unintentional insights he provides into expressions of insecurity and ego. The delta between what a man thinks he is saying versus what he is actually saying is perhaps no greater by anyone on the forum.

The posturing also makes me think we're in the Hallowed Halls of Academia, circa 1990. So maybe it's a good example of regressive behavior as well.

I was just making fun of Trev "the Rev's" use of quotes as a veiled insult. But, if someone is seeking examples of passive-aggressive behavior, all they have to do is look at your last couple of posts.

Trev is just a troll. I really should just ignore him, but what oh-so-many overlook about debating is that isn't about convincing your opponent, it is about convincing (educating) your audience. IOW, trolling by people like Trev provides a good opportunity for me to share my thoughts/ideas/knowledge with anyone else out there who might be reading.

... 'provides a good opportunity for me to share my thoughts/ideas/knowledge with anyone else out there who might be reading. '

And I for one thank you for that !

db

What are your thoughts on a TSS adjustment due to heat and altitude (when different from standard training environment). I have found that TSS has worked very well as a predictor/ pacing tool for TTs and triathlons but that I must adjust target values based on altitude / heat when compared to previous race performances. I find I need to do this with a CP modified skiba type of model as well (at least for longer races with heat). I recently did some pace planning for an athlete going from Boulder (home base) to a race at sea level. Pacing was spot on for a ~8 percent power gain over typical race based training sessions. Similarly a TSS adjustment (again for pacing purposes) was needed to fine tune a strategy for a very high placed age grouper racing at Buffalo springs (3000 ft and ~90 degrees versus typical training/testing environment of 500 ft and ~75 degrees). Just curious if you any have thoughts on some adjustment the the metric that may be needed to help account for this. In any case I think your metrics prove themselves out quit nicely (I didn't do a study but several podium spots for Pro and Amateur athletes recently at big races seems to back them up at least for pacing/planning purposes).

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Founder: BestBikeSplit
Amazonian

I have an issue with more than just indoor and outdoor FTP.

Add to the list the
following.

TT bike v road bike
Flat v climbing
Hot day v cold day
High inertia v low inertia
Sea level v altitude
Indoors big fan v indoors little fan
New TT position v old TT position
Hydrated v dehydrated
Morning v evening


And most of these are a difference of more than a few percent. Just a TT position change could be 20 or 30 watts drop or increase in FTP.

Heart rate varies - there is always a reason. It is the variability that is of interest.

You might want to look up some definitions of passive aggressive behavior. I believe you're confusing with the concept of restrained criticism.

Restrained criticism is making some fairly direct observations about someone's bad behavior. Most people are able to evaluate whether it's valid criticism or not, and act accordingly. And it's generally considered more productive and more polite than simply saying something like, "Wow, what a colossal, arrogant douche."

So - you have issues with life, pretty much, is what you're saying?

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float , hammer , and jog

I have been saying since 2006* that I don't believe that the best way forward is to continue searching for better ways of quantifying training-induced stress. Instead, it would be more useful to be able to quantify the relationship between training and performance. This is where the original impulse-response model falls short, as it really only tells you when to train, not how/how much to train (at least w/ the PMC it is possible to give guidelines re. maximal sustainable CTL.

*UK Sport, their equivalent of our USOC, had me give a talk on quantifying training stress. It was when I was preparing that talk that I started really thinking about such questions.

This, from the guy who likes to brag about how he stares down motorists...why the passivity now? Afraid of crossing swords and getting eaten alive?

De nada.

Can you clarify or edit this because it isn't clear what you mean.

I note how no one answered your question.


This is a good example of where having both power data and heart rate data is more valuable than power alone.

In what way?

Done.

 

Sir Andrew, I love, Love, LOVE your posts! Thank you for the entertainment you bring to slowtwitch!

PS: My sword is bigger (and broader) than yours. But that doesn't mean I'll let you eat it.