Someone I work with is trying to get me into cross country skiing. He runs 2:30-2:40 marathons. He is convinced that cross country skiing has helped him be a faster runner. He says that he gets a better aerobic workout than running and it helps him rest up from running in the winter. I'm sure the fitness from cc skiing but does it carry some muscle memory with it? Anyone else supplement their winter runs with cc skiing and see improvement in their run times come spring/summer?
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Re: Cross Country Skiing vs Running [Mrdavidalex]
[ In reply to ]
Our ST friend cerveloguy does.
Check out his thread about putting his running shoes away for the winter.
Cross country skiing in the winter sounds like a nice replacement for running in the winter. Wish I had enough snow in VA to do it.
Check out his thread about putting his running shoes away for the winter.
Cross country skiing in the winter sounds like a nice replacement for running in the winter. Wish I had enough snow in VA to do it.
Re: Cross Country Skiing vs Running [Mrdavidalex]
[ In reply to ]
Cross-country skiing can be really, really good aerobically and muscularly, especially during winter as cross-training, because it translates very well. But, if you've never done it, then you're not going to get as good a workout as your friend right away, because it's so technique-heavy. You'll have to get good at it before you'll be able to go hard or long enough that it'll be aerobically beneficial.
kelly dunleavy o'mara
@kellydomara
kelly dunleavy o'mara
@kellydomara
Re: Cross Country Skiing vs Running [Mrdavidalex]
[ In reply to ]
Classic or skate?
Skate skiing is a reasonable cross over for cycling, and a few of the ultra run guys around here do a bit of classic for cross training.
Personally I find classic boring as shit!!! Skate skiing is a blast though, we replace a couple bikes with skis in the winter.
Maurice
Skate skiing is a reasonable cross over for cycling, and a few of the ultra run guys around here do a bit of classic for cross training.
Personally I find classic boring as shit!!! Skate skiing is a blast though, we replace a couple bikes with skis in the winter.
Maurice
Re: Cross Country Skiing vs Running [Mrdavidalex]
[ In reply to ]
xc skiers generally have the highest V02 out of any endurance athletes. Without a doubt it would advance your overall fitness. Getting back to efficient running and cycling shouldn't take to long if you're doing some form of maintenance over the winter months.
I've been meaning to add this into my training. Thanks for the reminder.
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COROS Sports Science
I've been meaning to add this into my training. Thanks for the reminder.
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COROS Sports Science
Re: Cross Country Skiing vs Running [Mrdavidalex]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Cross Country Skiing vs Running [mauricemaher]
[ In reply to ]
mauricemaher wrote:
Classic or skate? Skate skiing is a reasonable cross over for cycling, and a few of the ultra run guys around here do a bit of classic for cross training.
Personally I find classic boring as shit!!! Skate skiing is a blast though, we replace a couple bikes with skis in the winter.
Maurice
And I, on the other hand, felt that skating took something away from XC. Bit then I've been XCing since before skate skiing existed and never went over to the dark side as I migrated out of XC. Although I've done both (and do some skating with my downhill skis on the flats) and when I think about it, I had a great time with the technical aspects of classic. Being able to transition back and forth between diagonal stride and double-pole/kick, based upon terrain, snow conditions etc., was always something I enjoyed. Plus, I really liked it when I "guessed right" and ended up with not good, but perfect wax.
Based upon when I was both running in summer and XC skiing in winter (many years ago), I would say that I got a better workout with XC. I went longer at what seemed a higher exertion level. XC has a similarity to cycling in that you can "coast". More than the glide in the swimming stroke, the glide in XC gives more rest (of course that could be because I'm such a crappy swimmer). And although double poling on slight downhills can be exhausting, as the hill gets steeper you'll do less poling and can tuck and rest (like on a bike) - something you can't do on the run.
BC Don
Pain is temporary, not giving it your all lasts all Winter.
Re: Cross Country Skiing vs Running [mauricemaher]
[ In reply to ]
This will be classified as drive by brag, but here goes anyway as it was a great marathon result off a lot of XC skiing...but there is more to it than XC skiing.
In the winter of 1992-1993, I reduced my running to ~10k per week. Basically it was 3K of running (1.5 K per direction) to jog to the Rideau Canal to go speed skating which I would do 3-4 times per week (so some weeks, 9K of jogging, other weeks 12k). I was speed skating around 50-70K per week. AND I was XC skiing 100-180K per week. All skiing was skate skiing. I was in grad school then and 21 years younger with a ton of time to train and recover. Anyway, come March 1st, I started my running program and cut out half the XC skiing and was running 50-60K per week in March and also stopped speed skating. Then April, I ramped the running over 4 weeks to 70, 80, 90,100K and replaced the XC skiing with bike and swim to get ready for tri season.
Mid May I ran the Ottawa marathon in 1:23+1:25 = 2:48. That was my best marathon ever (both pacing and speed), but I don't think it was entirely the skate skiing. The speed skating works the eccentric loading closer to running and and how your engage the hamstrings during the recovery also works more of the running muscles than Skate skiing. So I think it was combination of skate skiing and speed skating doing the trick. My quads were totally hardened from all the eccentric loading of speed skating that you don't quite get with skate skiing (that's also why speed skaters have to compliment skate volume with cycling).
Would I have been faster with a "proper" running block? Maybe, and I don't know, but I THINK that I got the aerobic load and eccentric conditioning without the pounding and injury potential of running so I was 'fresher' for my short marathon build. I have thought about complimenting running volume with in line skating in the summer, but have never gotten around to it, and as it stands now, I don' t have easy access to ice for speed skating in the winter, so I don't do much of it any more.
In the winter of 1992-1993, I reduced my running to ~10k per week. Basically it was 3K of running (1.5 K per direction) to jog to the Rideau Canal to go speed skating which I would do 3-4 times per week (so some weeks, 9K of jogging, other weeks 12k). I was speed skating around 50-70K per week. AND I was XC skiing 100-180K per week. All skiing was skate skiing. I was in grad school then and 21 years younger with a ton of time to train and recover. Anyway, come March 1st, I started my running program and cut out half the XC skiing and was running 50-60K per week in March and also stopped speed skating. Then April, I ramped the running over 4 weeks to 70, 80, 90,100K and replaced the XC skiing with bike and swim to get ready for tri season.
Mid May I ran the Ottawa marathon in 1:23+1:25 = 2:48. That was my best marathon ever (both pacing and speed), but I don't think it was entirely the skate skiing. The speed skating works the eccentric loading closer to running and and how your engage the hamstrings during the recovery also works more of the running muscles than Skate skiing. So I think it was combination of skate skiing and speed skating doing the trick. My quads were totally hardened from all the eccentric loading of speed skating that you don't quite get with skate skiing (that's also why speed skaters have to compliment skate volume with cycling).
Would I have been faster with a "proper" running block? Maybe, and I don't know, but I THINK that I got the aerobic load and eccentric conditioning without the pounding and injury potential of running so I was 'fresher' for my short marathon build. I have thought about complimenting running volume with in line skating in the summer, but have never gotten around to it, and as it stands now, I don' t have easy access to ice for speed skating in the winter, so I don't do much of it any more.
Re: Cross Country Skiing vs Running [Mrdavidalex]
[ In reply to ]
I think x-cty is a great adjunct to Triathlon - as others have stated, it has a number of benefits- however I would advise about keeping some running in your winter program - Case in point - I used to race Winter Biathlon and when the last race was over had 10 days before the London Marathon - do decided to do a short 10 miler in Oslo... Boy it took nearly a week for the DOMs to go away...
Have fun and either method is great fun.
Graham Wilson
USAT Level III Elite Coach
http://www.thewilsongroup.biz
Have fun and either method is great fun.
Graham Wilson
USAT Level III Elite Coach
http://www.thewilsongroup.biz
Re: Cross Country Skiing vs Running [ddalzell]
[ In reply to ]
you are right on that...I wish I had been a "nordi," rather than a "piner,"...now that Im an endurance geek...
I had several nordic skiers as roomates in highschool...guys who are house hold names in Nordic circles...they train like animals and surprisingly have a lot of fun too!
one off season workout I remember them doing specifically was a 3 hour run....
I had several nordic skiers as roomates in highschool...guys who are house hold names in Nordic circles...they train like animals and surprisingly have a lot of fun too!
one off season workout I remember them doing specifically was a 3 hour run....
Re: Cross Country Skiing vs Running [PlacidPirate]
[ In reply to ]
also have distinct memories of dudes bombing hills on roller-skis that put me at 50+
on a bike...but to the point ...skiing all winter will put you fine for the up-coming season
on a bike...but to the point ...skiing all winter will put you fine for the up-coming season
Re: Cross Country Skiing vs Running [kellydomara]
[ In reply to ]
kellydomara wrote:
Cross-country skiing can be really, really good aerobically and muscularly, especially during winter as cross-training, because it translates very well. But, if you've never done it, then you're not going to get as good a workout as your friend right away, because it's so technique-heavy. You'll have to get good at it before you'll be able to go hard or long enough that it'll be aerobically beneficial.I have to disagree. XC skiing and swimming are similar in that you will get a great workout with poor technique, you just won't go anywhere.
Re: Cross Country Skiing vs Running [jk9270]
[ In reply to ]
gotta disagree...work works...I know a Nordic skier who had terrible tech. was a D1 athlete...not world class but better than most here or anywhere .... yes technique is elementary but fitness is fitness
Re: Cross Country Skiing vs Running [Mrdavidalex]
[ In reply to ]
For most people, cross-country skiing would be a good thing to do in winter. Would it be as good as a fully dedicated running (or cycling if that was your goal) program all winter, assuming weather allowed you to run/bike as much as you wanted? No. if you live somewhere where skiing is possible, you might not be able to do the core sport as you want, so the skiing will be a big help.
Skating is perhaps closer to cycling and classic technique (done right - not just shuffling) is closer to running. But either can be a great workout.
http://www.jt10000.com/
Skating is perhaps closer to cycling and classic technique (done right - not just shuffling) is closer to running. But either can be a great workout.
http://www.jt10000.com/
Re: Cross Country Skiing vs Running [jt10000]
[ In reply to ]
This is interesting and I'd be interested to hear other perspectives on this.
I know specificity is king. So theoretically speaking, if you were trying to be the best cyclist that you could be, you'd dedicate all of your time to cycling. However, if XC skiers typically have much higher aerobic capabilities when compared to cyclists, wouldn't it be wise for an elite cyclist to focus some time with XC skiing in order to maximize their aerobic potential? Or, is this false because muscle recruitment is different and you technically aren't training the same muscles to use oxygen in the same efficient way?
Any elite cyclists or ex phys guys want to chime in on this for me? Thanks
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COROS Sports Science
I know specificity is king. So theoretically speaking, if you were trying to be the best cyclist that you could be, you'd dedicate all of your time to cycling. However, if XC skiers typically have much higher aerobic capabilities when compared to cyclists, wouldn't it be wise for an elite cyclist to focus some time with XC skiing in order to maximize their aerobic potential? Or, is this false because muscle recruitment is different and you technically aren't training the same muscles to use oxygen in the same efficient way?
Any elite cyclists or ex phys guys want to chime in on this for me? Thanks
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COROS Sports Science
Re: Cross Country Skiing vs Running [Mrdavidalex]
[ In reply to ]
cross country is great, either skate or classic is good, I don't feel it makes a huge difference. If there are set tracks I much prefer to classic. What I like is it's a weight bearing exercise, but you can do it for a longer duration than running because it's lower impact. It hits your upper body nicely and you can enjoy it when it's way too cold to ride and the roads are crap.
Re: Cross Country Skiing vs Running [jroden]
[ In reply to ]
I cross country ski in winter and the truth is unless you are skilled then you will only get a moderate work out. So it takes time to become skilled enough to actually be able to ski fast enough to actually stress any systems. So though I find it great recovery activity I am not good enough to get a really hard workout. It is a really fun time out in the fresh air is good and you need some time off the bike to not get burned out. So use it at the level you can and enjoy it.
Re: Cross Country Skiing vs Running [ddalzell]
[ In reply to ]
ddalzell wrote:
This is interesting and I'd be interested to hear other perspectives on this. I know specificity is king. So theoretically speaking, if you were trying to be the best cyclist that you could be, you'd dedicate all of your time to cycling. However, if XC skiers typically have much higher aerobic capabilities when compared to cyclists, wouldn't it be wise for an elite cyclist to focus some time with XC skiing in order to maximize their aerobic potential? Or, is this false because muscle recruitment is different and you technically aren't training the same muscles to use oxygen in the same efficient way?
Any elite cyclists or ex phys guys want to chime in on this for me? Thanks
I know up here Catherine Pendral ski's a fair bit in the winter while she's home (4th in Bejing MTB)
Skiing is a bit of a culture here, the question isn't so much why would you? But why wouldn't you? Our longer bikes over the winter are replaced by skating. Olav Stana who used to live here would also often go from world masters champion skate skiing in the winter to Nat Champ in the TT in the summer (masters).
Past two years we skied mostly in the winter and then went to Maui in the spring for a two week cycling specific block, this year looking at Tucson.
It is not specific to cycling but I feel it is generally very close, you get a very good workout and seam to develop a very big engine.
Maurice
Re: Cross Country Skiing vs Running [jk9270]
[ In reply to ]
I agree with you. If you have lousy form and are trying hard (in either swimming or xc skiing) then you are going to get a really hard workout...you just won't go very fast.
case in point: just do the tarzan swim (with your head out of the water)...even a good swimmer will be gassed much faster.
case in point: just do the tarzan swim (with your head out of the water)...even a good swimmer will be gassed much faster.
Re: Cross Country Skiing vs Running [Mrdavidalex]
[ In reply to ]
There isn't much to really debate about. You won't find any decent xc skiers who come out of winter in bad shape. As others have said....you may be able to run faster in the early spring if you just run over the winter. Of course, maybe you'll avoid running injuries by xc skiing. Unless you are trying to be a professional triathlete, then my opinion is to do what makes you happy. If you like xc skiing...then by all means, do it. It beats the hell out of sitting on a bike trainer or treadmill (both of which I avoid as much as possible).
Re: Cross Country Skiing vs Running [Mrdavidalex]
[ In reply to ]
Simply no question that xc skiing will both help your fitness and running, as long as you continue some maintenance running. In the winter my rule is if I have skiable snow and the time, my workout is xc skiing - I almost never use a trainer and rarely run on a treadmill or indoors. XC skiing is a great workout, and sans any bad falls, low impact vs. running. Some of my best running has come off big xc ski winters, while I always seem to be somewhat burned in the spring if I focus only on running in the winter.
One thing to note is many equate skate / freestyle xc skiing with cycling and classic (striding) xc skiing with running. Both are good for running or cycling.
One thing to note is many equate skate / freestyle xc skiing with cycling and classic (striding) xc skiing with running. Both are good for running or cycling.
Re: Cross Country Skiing vs Running [Mrdavidalex]
[ In reply to ]
It absolutely carries over to run fitness. I coach a guy who runs very little from dec-feb but he xc ski races and puts in a lot of volume and races very often. Come March we get back to running. He just ran a 2:41 marathon last year at VT City marathon with almost no running from dec-feb.
Skate skiing translates very well to cycling and classic skiing translates well to running. Personally I've had some of my best 20 and 60 min power coming off a season of skate skiing. I also think it helps swimming but don't have any hard data on that. Basically you can't go wrong.
http://www.mountainmettle.com
Skate skiing translates very well to cycling and classic skiing translates well to running. Personally I've had some of my best 20 and 60 min power coming off a season of skate skiing. I also think it helps swimming but don't have any hard data on that. Basically you can't go wrong.
http://www.mountainmettle.com
I'm also in favor of reducing running for several months while one cross country skis. Less joint impact with skiing, change in scenery and more variety in training which reduces the chances of burnout. Chasing snow can sometimes be problem some.
As for speed skating, I'm one of the few individuals on this forum that skated with/against a kid named Heiden in the 1960's while living in Wisconsin.
As for speed skating, I'm one of the few individuals on this forum that skated with/against a kid named Heiden in the 1960's while living in Wisconsin.