The first year plus i spent talking to the ex-dopers in cycling about all this I thought I was through the looking glass. I've done quick searches by topic before when I needed better understanding of something Vaughters or Floyd or a hematologist I talk to was telling me, but I stayed away from those places other than if a very specific post came up on the topic I was focused on at the time. But when we started talking about "what % in tri are using" I started looking. What startled me was not the sheer volume of people involved, that i was pretty sure about already; it was how far back it goes. 6 and 7 years ago, triathletes and cyclists, not just asking about EPO, but EPO microdosing. Frankly, it's scary, and I come away from those sites every time feeling dirty. There are 2 that i've been told that have been very popular with endurance athlete dopers, but both require registration to read posts, and I've decided at least for the time being it's too creepy even having a user name at those places.

x2. The iceberg that you can see is only about 10% of the real thing.

John

---

---

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Sorry, I missed most of this thread while being away all weekend coaching and competing, but I'm floored by this. Thanks for sharing. I wonder what I am up against racing in M45-49, and I like to give my competition the benefit of the doubt, but I'm really jaded by all of this.

But here is the deal. A guy like Ken Glah who races in my age group goes 1.5 hours slower than he used to at Ironman and 40 min slower than he used to in half Ironman. Sure Ken is training less, but time catches up with all of us. So when guys pop up that we have not heard of and give Ken a run....well questions will arise. I use a guy like Ken as an example because he has pro level genetics and has consistent spectrum of results over time that reflect "graceful aging". There are a host of other national level age groupers who have been the "fast guys" for 20 years over time that I can also use as my benchmarks...

Dev

Sure, but at the same time, you can't just eyeball a doper based on time. The "smartest" dopers, as we're seeing in cycling, are now doping to fit in with the level above them, rather than trying to dominate it. there is too much technology, money, and coaching at some people's fingertips that there are people coming to the sport late in life that some of them are clean and putting up decent times. there's simply no way around the fact that we need to test more people and test more thoroughly.

EDIT: Further, im not accusing anyone specifically at all, but its hard to say for sure the guys in the 45-49 at the world class level havent been doping for past 20 years.

There were definitely younger people in there as well. One guy identified himself as a 22yo cyclist. He was pumping himself full of testosterone and people were telling him he should be doing EPO. At least several people were smart enough to tell him that he was probably screwing himself up for life with the testosterone and he should quit it immediately.

---

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

I am always slightly amazed at the responses to this topic. While there are obviously some who will find "legitimate" reasons to avail themselves of any number of PED's, I think that before you decide to drop all the users of testosterone into the ocean you might want to do a little research. As mentioned before, hypogonadism is a serious issue (I can't get past thinking it means "little balls"). My unsupplemented testosterone levels are in the high female range. While it is difficult to maintain a stable level, my physician does a pretty good job of keeping mine in the "normal" range for a 58 year old. Sometimes a little lower, sometimes a little higher. This makes a significant difference in my quality of life and , I assure you, not a single member of my AG needs worry about my suddenly improving a PR by half. Should I seek a TUE I imagine it will be at least be seriously considered. There are a number of side effects associated with long term use, not the least of which would be adding fuel to the fire for a latent prostate cancer but this can be monitored. Yes there are many folks out there who will seek the use of testosterone and physicians who will prescribe based on "I feel like crap and I don't have a "blue steel, cat can't scratch it" erection. I rather imagine that more than not are in my situation, not seeking any great advantage but availing themselves of a proven treatment for a proven condition.

No one here is saying that someone with a legit medical condition that requires treatment with testosterone should be thrown in the Ocean. There are many people and complicit doctors using it in races, without a TUE, and it is giving them an advantage without a medical condition that justifies their use of of testosterone while racing. If you are in fact racing, I would encourage you not to race until you have been granted a TUE. Otherwise you are competing outside the rules.

The post you responded to was referring to people using drugs solely for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage.

---

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

High female range would put you somewhere around 200 ng/dl lower than the bottom of the male range. Obviously you need the supplementation, and if you have the history of it, you *should* be able to get a TUE. I have no problem with you racing, competing, whatever. A lot of the "low T" people that we are discussing in the older age groups are the ones that are still within the normal range (300+), but are on T for the "wanna feel young again" sensation. Those are the ones that I don't think should be competing. If they want to take T, great, just don't compete.

John

---

---

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

[quote Devlin


x2. The iceberg that you can see is only about 10% of the real thing.

John[/quote]

---

So here is something interesting,look what arrived on my Facebook page today.It seems that testosterone use for triathletes is not only accepted by some but actively advertised by one or two race production companies.Looks like the horse has well and truly bolted

A screenshot for all you ST detecives out there.


I think the USAT is going to have to start some real dialogue and begin to define what is and what isn't considered acceptable before this all goes to hell!

www.innovativemen.com

....

----

I wanted to take a moment to reply both to this conversation and also particularly the post that was copied from our website. TriFreaks does not in any way shape or form promote, condone, or encourage the act of doping or using other illegal enhancing drugs. We do however encourage men and women to work with a certified doctor to assess whether they have hormonal deficiencies that may affect them detrimentally. Any treatments as a result of a deficiency are FDA regulated and are not legal if they elevate people's hormonal values above what is considered normal.

I personally have benefited from Hormone Replacement Therapy. I have struggled for many years with depression, fatigue and other maladies. Innovative Men's Health helped me find a thyroid deficiency, and a treatment plan for the deficiency. I have since had more energy, sleep better, feel better, along with many other things. I am grateful for what they have done for me, and also know that thyroid problems, for example, are the number one midsiagnosed disease in this country.

With that said, I spoke with the Dr. at Innovative Men's Health and asked him to draft a response to this conversation. Here is what he said:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem is that people confuse treatment for low testosterone with testosterone abuse. There are many risks associated with testosterone abuse just as there are many risks associated with low testosterone. Read more: http://innovativemen.com/low-testosterone-levels-in-men-an-untreated-epidemic/

In competitive sports it is unfortunate that testosterone therapy done safely is frowned on based on the idea that it enhances performance. There are a number of things that enhance performance including eating food. If you starve yourself your performance will decrease and when you finally eat it is likely your performance will be enhanced. The rebuttal to this is that eating is a basic need and therefore anything beyond basic needs is enhancement. Okay, what about other hormones that can be used for performance enhancement.

Many body builders use insulin and thyroid medication to enhance their performance. This is abuse in some cases perhaps but we use insulin and thyroid medication all the time in primary care medicine and few would say a diabetic athlete should be denied insulin. In my opinion, the same case is true in low testosterone. If a patient has low testosterone levels verified by a lab test and is experiencing symptoms they deserve treatment. This treatment may require testosterone injections or testosterone creams to reduce these symptoms and prevent other serious health problems such as heart disease and muscle wasting.

Read more about low testosterone symptoms and risks here: http://innovativemen.com/low-testosterone-therapy/

While I have never prescribed testosterone for a professional athlete, I feel that the misunderstanding between testosterone therapy for wellness and testosterone abuse that may give an unfair advantage due to its risks has created a problem with respect to quality of care.

--
Be Well,

Dr. Barry Wheeler
Naturopathic Doctor
Website: InnovativeMen.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand both sides of the argument, and realize that there is no clear answer here. The answer as in many cases in this area is likely to be "It Depends On The Situation". While I am not professional athlete, and have no desire to be one, I do compete at events and like doing my best. Is my best a best without my thyroid medication where I struggle for energy, or is it one where I have the medicine I need to function properly every day? If my testosterone levels were low in my early 40's ( I know someone around my age that has a level of 43 without treatment, and with treatment they are at about 800. Normal levels are 350 to 1200. ) like the person I know, and I took the same treatment he did, would I be cheating if I competed? Someone with testosterone that low would struggle normally without any kind of treatment. Because they want to live a normal life, and participate in a sport they love, would they be cheating? Personally I don't think so. But this is not the answer for every sitatuation.

The hard part about this topic is that the answer really depends. And no situation is going to be the same. The reality is that Hormone Replacement Therapy is here to stay. People want to live longer and healthier lives. The challenge will lie in coming up with guidelines that allow for a fair assessment of what is condoned and what is not. Personally I will request a TUE for my thyroid medication, as I in no way shape or form want to hide anything or come across as trying to use PED's to compete. As for those out there that are using testosterone or other hormones/drugs to compete when they don't need them for their overall health, they should be penalized.

---

Stefan Newbury
TriFreaks Inc.
Certified USAT RD

Personally I will request a TUE for my thyroid medication,//

What are you taking? I believe most thyroid meds are fine, maybe synthroid?

 It's a T3/T4 (Synthroid/Liothyronine) compound. Part slow and part fast release.

---

Stefan Newbury
TriFreaks Inc.
Certified USAT RD

Neither of those are prohibited in or out of competition.

http://www.globaldro.com

John

---

---

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Pretty sure those are legal and not in the testerone category, so you should be good to go. I know lots of pros with thyroid problems and they are able to compete using their medications. You may not like the lines, but they have been drawn in regards to what physical problems can be treated without TUE's.

And to the argument you posted from the doc, it is a tired old slipprey slope one. As soon as i hear him compare food as a performance enhancer i know he has an agenda. Many people will buy it however, but it gets little traction over here..

Thanks Monty. As for what the doc said, I hear you. The whole topic is slippery. The whole problem is you can't create a one shoe fits all guideline. There is too much room for when an exception should be made.

It will be interesting to see what guidelines will be made in the long run.

---

Stefan Newbury
TriFreaks Inc.
Certified USAT RD

Is it me or is this all getting worse? I am starting to see the Androgel commercials all the time on TV now. This keeps up and the age-grade fields will be taking more peds than the pros.

It is getting worse. As does anything where folks who want to make a buck sense the opportunity for a market.

It will be the same with this as it is with anything else in this world. It will get lots of attention for a while and then the fad will be replaced by something else.

---

Stefan Newbury
TriFreaks Inc.
Certified USAT RD

So just to make sure I am correct...if those who supplement testosterone levels to be those of a normal male of their age making the testosterone levels equal. This is cheating? So guys with lower levels of testosterone whether a genetic issue or one of age would they be what? If one guys level is 100 at age 56 and another 300 at the same age and no testosterone supplementation is used....how is this right or just in your view? Maybe I missing something but making an equal playing ground for the 100 guy just to bring him up to normal levels of 98% of the other guys in his category just seems.....obvious?

Personally I consider caffeine, 5-hour energy, extra shot lattes, diet pills and that pre workout energy drinks you buy at GNC are cheating. I honestly think that if the system was just caffeine or any 'energy blends' would be banned ASAP. I can guarantee more heart attacks and anxiety attacks causing death in our sport are due to these drugs.

I don't know but seems that all the fingers pointing are misdirected a lot of times by loop holes in the system. I'd personally like to see caffeine out on the ole list.

your relativistic logic and reductionist terminology are very weak. You ask a good question though.

But to answer, you are correct. Why? Because. It's the rules.

Don't like it? Pick better parents. Do any number of highly effective, natural methods to raise your testosterone. Just don't cheat and then race.

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

apparently, yes you do. If you didn't, you wouldn't associate with that company on a professional level.



apparently no you don't. There aren't a "both sides to the argument", there's only one. Exogenous testosterone without a TUE is cheating. Done and done.

I know it's not much, but as a pacific north westerner and previous TriFreaks race participant I will no longer be association with TF or doing your races.

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Nobody is saying it is cheating as long as the users have the proper medical papers and a TUE. Once the folks with legitimate cases get their TUE then sure they can use testosterone as their dr has directed.
You start letting people use meds like testosterone without real medical problem and going through the TUE process then you start getting abuse. Once extensive abuse starts then there is no winning legitimately anymore and all those who want to win will have to start taking testosterone and whatever else, which can be very dangerous. The TUE process is kind of like nipping it in the bud. Stop the probable abuse issues as fast as you can and hope that you can stop the chain reaction and wide spread abuse.
Not a big prob, test users just need to get their TUE, or not Race. Find a different sport, race on your own if you're one of those who say that why you do it anyway.. Thems are the rules..

" If one guys level is 100 at age 56 and another 300 at the same age and no testosterone supplementation is used....how is this right or just in your view? Maybe I missing something but making an equal playing ground for the 100 guy just to bring him up to normal levels of 98% of the other guys in his category just seems.....obvious? "

I am amazed anyone could have this attitude. You are ignoring the fact that one person could be perfectly normal in terms of functioning at 100, another at 200, and another at 300. If you allow anyone to "equalize" that level then all of the sudden you are essential requiring EVERYONE to dope up to 300 just to level the playing field. The problem of course is that 3 guys above might be equally fast. Maybe the guy at 300 recovers well, and the guy at 100 recovers much more slowly but has a much higher hemocrit level so he has better aerobic capacity. You allow ANY testosterone supplementation and you have really shafted they guy with the naturally high level as that is his "ace in the hole" so to speak.


Wait, maybe you will now advocate taking EPO to level THAT aspect of a person's physiology? Pro cycling set 50% as the max "normal" level Hct level because they wanted to reduce health risks from over-doping. The problem is, that just made a level of 49% pretty much required for everybody. If you set a max "normal" testosterone level and you will get the same result, everyone will need to dope up to that level to be competitive.


Maybe it is just a bit simpler to say that triathlon is a sport where people compete with their NATURAL bodies, as is, and just acknowledge the fact that some people will be dealt a better genetic deck of cards than others. The point of racing is to see how well you can do with what you have. Not how well you can do with the help of you doctor, pharmacist and chemist.

well reasoned response. Perhaps there are legitimate questions to ask and arguments to make regarding this issue but his was just weak sauce.

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Cheater. Plain and simple.