Yep.

I've only been training for 5 yrs...but I never cramp. Ever. This last weekend I ran a marathon with very little running base due to injury and a host of other excuses (avg < 15 miles per week running for the entire 6 mths prior) At mile 12 my entire left leg from achilles to glute started cramping HARD....right leg soon followed....didn't stop until I stumbled over the finish line. Well, they eased up a bit when I stopped for 3 mins at mile 22 to swig some cold beer :-)

I just was not prepared for that mileage or the pace that I tried to maintain.

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Re [crampers’ sodium levels dropped 0.1% (+/- 1.9%), while the non-crampers increased 0.4% (+/- 2.6%). Doesn't this bit from the study at least suggest that sodium loss could be a factor???]

For me, this isn't news either. These reports have been coming out for years and everything I've done in working with athletes prone to cramping, supports these findings. For example: working closely with a nutriton company who reccommends talking 2-3 of their electrolyte tabs per hour during a race (that's 30+ in an IM), to help an athlete overcome his crmping issues in Ironman - to no avail. The "salt tablets" made no difference whatsoever. This example wasn't an isolated case.

I believe more than anything, that athletes go too hard for their ability and this is one of the major causes of their cramping in races - no matter how "hard" they train and even in the same climate as the race, if they go too hard in the race, they have an increased probability of cramping.

Being based in an Ironman town, I see an unusually high percentage of people with very little athletic background, doing a very long race, often on very tough conditions. I can't say that going too long too soon, has ever really crossed my mind as being a cause for cramping, unless the athlete is going too hard for their own good. Sure, it's a "conditioning" thing, but if race intensity is kept to a realisitic level, for the athlete's relative preparation, cramping is rarely an issue.

In the example I used above, the particular athlete I was referring to had a dozen IM's behind him. He's well conditioned, but just goes too hard - won't admit it... He can get away with it in cooler conditions, but not in the heat. He's always covered in salt - but taking salt tabs during the races has not helped, ever.

Now, this point about salt loss (crampers’ sodium levels dropped 0.1% (+/- 1.9%), while the non-crampers increased 0.4% (+/- 2.6%). Does this take into account the actual sodium levels before the race? ie: if the athlete doesn't take enough salt in, in their regular diet - to meet their own individual needs - they may already be low (for them) when the pre-race sodium levels are checked.

I'm just thinking about how an individual's sodium levels may be a contributor as to why they cramp (combined with riding too hard), but it's more about their daily salt intake (versus personal requirements) than it is about (extra) sodium intake during a race.

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KC
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Re: ive had only very minor and temporary cramps and it has always followed some sort of extreme effort I was not prepared for.

Thanks Jackmott, for your comment, while I was typing my long winded one above.

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KC
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That article is bang on as far as I'm concerned. Unfortunately, what happens too often to substantiate the old ingest-more-electrolytes-if-you-cramp school are athletes who switch to brand x and all of a sudden don't cramp anymore, forgetting that their bodies are becoming more fit, their muscles stronger, and just maybe the cramping is dissipating because of it. Think back to those early season duathlons where the race is too short to experience cramping due to electrolyte depletion yet you cramp. Why? Simply put, you're not in as good shape as later in the season. Many of us tend to race harder than we train. Chalk it up to adrenaline, but whatever the reason, we are pushing our bodies harder and they complain. A simple solution is to train at least as hard as you intend to race, at least some of the time. Another way to think about it: why is it only the muscles which are working hard cramp? Surely if it were simple electrolyte depletion, all of our muscles would cramp. There is more to the problem than simple electrolyte depletion.

Now, this point about salt loss (crampers’ sodium levels dropped 0.1% (+/- 1.9%), while the non-crampers increased 0.4% (+/- 2.6%). Does this take into account the actual sodium levels before the race? \\

How would you be able to measure a "difference" if you did not measure before? Just curious as to what other criteria you can imagine?

Now to your example, great. I have dozens more where salt during the race did help the athlete, do I win because I have more examples?

I do not disagree that excessive exercise, prepared or not, can be a cause of cramping. My question is does that activity also excessilely reduse sodium levels too in some people? Here is my example, I just took 2 salt pills and some magnesium before I go to my noon swim. It is a swim that I go too hard in every day of my life, that is what I do. I swim to failure, just like a lot of other swimmers do in workouts. Nothing I would usually do in a race, but swimming to failure is a common training tatic. If I take no salt, I'm likely to cramp at the end, or within the next hour afterwards. If I take my supplements, I almost never cramp, during or after. Now keep in mind I always go too hard and do things I'm not trained for. So how come salt helps me out in this situation, one that I have subjected myself to for 1000's of days in my career. This is no one off expirements, but a lot of data to support that just maybe, there is a relationship to excessive exercise and sodium loss for some.

Maybe you don't have enough salt in your regular diet - for your needs and that's why the supplements make the difference.

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KC
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Another way to think about it: why is it only the muscles which are working hard cramp? Surely if it were simple electrolyte depletion, all of our muscles would cramp./

You see this is the problem with the no supplement side, they have their expirence and assume it should be the same for everyone. It is almost never my working muscles that cramp first, but my stomach one. For whatever reason it is the 1st to go, and I can tell you that it is not pleasant. That is my indicator, and if I went way past the line then the other muscles follow, usually back next, then the actual working ones.

Is it possible that the 100's of stories unlike yours here are valid, and just because you react one way does not make it a natural law??

Maybe you don't have enough salt in your regular diet - for your needs and that's why the supplements make the difference.

A WINNER!!!! This is the one sentence that answers many of the questions about this topic. Boils down to one simple principal. Supplement or not, the needs of the person. And before the no supplement zealots jump on this, I'm not saying it is the only cause of cramping, just seems to be a regular one for many. And I admit that without exercise, and usually excessive exercise, there would not be that loss. Also seems like tempeture plays a role, perhaps it makes normal exercise excessive?

both stories are not complete.

one story - adding some sort of supplement didn't help the cramps (maybe they needed more!)

another story:

A guy was cramping we added salt and then he didn't cramp - maybe he just got more fit and learned to pace better too?


another possibility - its possible that consuming salt prevents cramping for some mechanism we aren't thinking of. it could be something weird like consuming salt makes you slow down (much like just the taste of sugar can make you speed up)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: How would you be able to measure a "difference" if you did not measure before? Just curious as to what other criteria you can imagine?

Of course you need to take a measurement before. My point is that the result of salt loss measured before/after, only reflect that, not the actual level before.

I just have a hard time with this recent trend for people to be taking huge 2-3 salt tablets per hour during races up to 15 hours long, when they don't need to. For my first 10 years of Ironman races, I didn't hear that much about salt tablets, now I hear everyone talking about them, planning to take them, even if they don't experience cramping issues.

I'm convinced there is a relationship with sodium/fluid levels and cramping during races, in some cases. I'm just not sold in the salt tablet idea - not for everyone.

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KC
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Maybe I am an exception, but after a long all out bike ride I can get cramps in the hands, back, arms and feet as well. These cramps can come hours after I finished the bike ride and these cramps can be pretty severe. This happens only from biking. I never cramp after running. It also seems to me that runners have less problems with cramps then triathletes and cyclists but I have no data on this. But I think I see a higher percentage of triathletes with cramps on a half IM, then runners with cramps on the marathon.

And cramps while swimming are also never in the muscles that work hardest. I have never seen someone with cramps in the shoulder muscles while swimming. It probably happened to someone, but it is rare I think.

Re: [Now to your example, great. I have dozens more where salt during the race did help the athlete, do I win because I have more examples?]

That was just an example that I thought was somewhat typical of my overall experience as someone working closely with a large amount of athletes over the years. I have other example similar to yours in which I suggest that maybe you could consider a little more salt in your diet or "if it works, keep doing it"

As an athlete myself, I don't cramp. I wonder why?

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KC
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As an athlete myself, I don't cramp. I wonder why?

Becaues you are a whimp and don't go hard enough...(-; At least that is what one side would have you believe, I just think you are one of the lucky ones. Just like with every variable in human physiology, there are people at the bottom and top of the curves. You can do things to move these people in the other direction, but given certain hardwired programming, will never get all the way to the elite top folks. It can be V02 max, size of mitocondria, muscle fibre makeup, lung capacity, ect.,ect. There are so many variables that determine great athletes, or just the imporvement of average ones. A good coach realizes this, and tailors programs(exercise and nutrition) accordingly.

Ok, it's well know Rapp loves bacon. I doubt he doesn't get enough salt. But you list him as a heavy salt user during races. Explain that.

FYI, a single strip of bacon usually has around 400mg of salt. Low salt bacon still has 200mg.

Ok, it's well know Rapp loves bacon. I doubt he doesn't get enough salt. But you list him as a heavy salt user during races. Explain that.

I don't have to explain it, he does so quite nicely in his many nutrition threads he posts up after races. If you do a search you will find several where he documents every calorie and supplement he takes during an ironman. Suffice it to say, people are quite suprised when they see his sodium intake, but I'm not. There are many others that take even more than he does, and I can gurantee it is not for the placebo effect.

Perhaps then, an athlete with a diet high in sodium requires a higher sodium intake during races?

Yes, I am frequently plagued by cramping when I ride with guys way too fast for me, which is most of the time. The worst case I ever had put me on the ground unable to even get up, wondering at what point I should call 911. I was finally able to walk into town and get a chocolate milk. A pint of milk has more electrolytes than a gallon of Gatorade, plus fat, and protein it does not have at all. With that, I was eventually able to ride the 70 miles back home in survival mode.

I thought it happened mostly when riding in the heat, but I also had cramping on a 12 hour night race at 72F. Being a heavier rider, I need to push harder to stay with the skinny guys in the hills. Usually I get dropped when I run out of glycogen and hit the wall. And so I wonder if glycogen depletion also plays a role.

Perhaps then, an athlete with a diet high in sodium requires a higher sodium intake during races?


Ok maybe, or the simple answer, an athlete may need more sodium than another during training and racing? Does it make sense that if a person needs more sodium during hard training, might just need it during racing?? Is that just too simple to be true?

It might be true... the WHY is what I want to know.

+1 The most common place I notice cramping on the bike is when I have to reach around to a jersey pocket to fish out another bottle or gel. I'll cramp on that entire side, from my waist to my head. Those muscles have not been working hard but when they are stretched they give instant and sever negative reenforcement.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

So you're stomach isn't a "working muscle" while swimming? Also, what's a "stomach one" anyway?

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"One Line Robert"

Ok, it is the ab muscle to get picky. And it doesn't matter if I'm swimming, running or biking, it is the "ab" that cramps first. Of course you use them, but I think the guys point was that the primary muscles are the ones that always cramp, and that is just not true. Just in the few posts since then , you can see that many have the same expirence.

It might be true... the WHY is what I want to know.

Probably more than one answer, but I'm guessing a primary one would be the same one as why do some people have high HCT %? Why do some people have high VO2 max's? Why do some people do really well in the heat and others in extreme cold? Why are some people able to run a 100m in 10sec, and others 26.2miles in 2;05?

Re: Becaues you are a whimp and don't go hard enough...(-; I just think you are one of the lucky ones.

You create your own luck!
Go hard and have fun. mate.

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KC
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Steve.....these guys were covering this way back in 2007 :)
http://www.sportsscientists.com/...-1-theories-and.html