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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [mclamb6] [ In reply to ]
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here we basically agree. I think freedom is something that you have to want. It can't be handed to you. That is basically my whole problem with the current war. If Hussein needed to be removed, assassination is an effective means. I don't know what the Iraqi's really want, but they don't seem to be interested in being democratic, at least from my limited perspective. Putting in puppet governments has never worked. Look where it got us with Iran and our attempt with Cuba.

For the record, I am not a big Bush fan, and quite frankly, Bush vs. Kerry was not, in my opinion a choice of the 'better candidate' but more of a "lesser of two evils' .



_________________________________________________
That is just one more group of people that should be thrown screaming from a helicopter- George Carlin
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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois, love you guy, but that is the dumbest post you have made on this forum.

I can't wait to hear where this "traditional answer" came from, since I have never heard it. Please tell me you are joking.

My answer when hit on by the gay guy in Boston was that might girlfriend (now my wife) upstairs might not appreciate it.

Hey, it was a weekend morning, I had just finished a run, and he was out there hustling. You have to respect the guy.
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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [Dr. Doom] [ In reply to ]
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Just wondering, did that analysis apply to Afghanistan as well? Did the recent vote with 10,000,000 voters influence your analysis?

How many of the other 80 odd new democracies that have come into existence since the end of the Carter presidency were also not interested in democracy?
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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [NYCTri] [ In reply to ]
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The Dems used these "Nazi" techniques in 1992, and it worked very well for them. Clinton was, and still is, a master a this.

The problem they had this year was a candidate who didn't know when to shut up - like Gore in 2000 or Dole in 1996. Watching them speak made me cringe...
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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francios;

Good points....we have some common ground :) I do wish to prevent a misunderstanding of the following argument which I never asserted:

>>However, your argument about moral being a Bush argument but not a Kerry's one is way off. It's not because Kerry didn't mention God in every speach that he is not a moral man.
<<

My position was never remotely that Bush is moral or Kerry is not. Maybe that came from elsewhere in this thread. My vote is that Bush's worldview, in my own analysis, has better alignment with a holistic Christian worldview than Kerry's. I think Kerry is a fine man and is to be commended for throwing his hat into the public ring. But to use your terminology, Kerry's deontolgy didn't seem to be on as firm a footing as Bush's. Perhaps it indeed is but it didn't seem convincing enough to the electorate to swing enough votes in his favor.
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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [jeffz99] [ In reply to ]
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-- My vote is that Bush's worldview, in my own analysis, has better alignment with a holistic Christian worldview than Kerry's.

How does waging of war fall into any Christian worldview? I am not a religious person and I really don't understand how for Christians it is ok to send people to die in a war but it isn't ok to have an abortion. Abortion is a horrible act but I want someone to explain to me how it is different than sending people to die in the Iraq war. Even if you believe the war is necessary for survival, how does it fit within the Christian beliefs?

This isn't meant to ridicule or condescend but I genuinely do not understand this at all.
Last edited by: TTTorso: Nov 9, 04 11:28
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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [tri_bri2] [ In reply to ]
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Some additional thoughts I had while riding my bike:

1. The first modern president to make "morals" an issue was Jimmy Carter in 1976. He was also the last Democrat to carry the South and the last Democrat to get over 50% (50.6) of the popular vote.

2. Since 1980, Republicans have owned this "issue." In that same time frame, the Democrats went from a 15 point lead in party affiliation to a tie with Republicans. The county I live in was 9:1 Democrat when I established residence in 1979. It is now about 7:3 Republican. Some of the trend has been due to new people moving in, but a lot of it has been Democrats switching to Republican. Virtually all of them will say "I didn't leave the party, the party left me."

3. Morals isn't really so much an issue, as some have pointed out, but the "lens" through which all other issues are viewed.

4. What surprises me is not that the Democrats now seem to have caught on that values count, but that it took them so long.

5. I may gloat about the results of the election, but I think the country needs a strong two-party system. As a former internal auditor, I know that even the most honest person, when left unchecked, may become corrupted. If for no other reason than to ensure a vigorous debate over issues, we need two opposing views. Comparing the other party to Nazis, or a sitting wartime president to Hitler, won't win you any points in the heartland.
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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [TTTorso] [ In reply to ]
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"I'm interested in how you can cite hollywood as a group of people without high moral values, but can overlook the moral values it takes to send American men and women to war when we didn't have concrete evidence of an imminent threat to harm us. I fail to understand how many can hold the moral values of anti-abortion/anti-stem cell yet there seems to be no outrage about sending young kids to die in a war. "



I don't see how you can possibly compare the two. Hollywood and television pilfer society for a profit. It matters very little to them whether they are influencing people in dangerous ways, as long as people are watching and the money is rolling in, they are doing their duty to their stockholders. They push the limits further and further every year.

Bush, on the other hand, made a decision, in conjuction with his advisors, based on the data he had at the time. That data pointed to an Iraqi threat. The British intelligence was similar. I would say it would be immoral to do nothing and let that threat develop, when it can be stopped now at the cost of a few thousand soldiers. Having an army as a deterent isn't very effective if your enemy never engages the army. Do you think the next evil dictator is going to think we are bluffing?

I would say it is much less moral to be condemning those protecting your freedom and security. Concrete evidence of an immenent threat...what is that? Does Bush have to personally witness a nuclear missle test? Witnessing Sadam poison thousands of Iraqi's is enough for me, they should have finished him then.
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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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well, sorry art, but the 'Iraqis don't know answer' was given numerous times in the threads about why the war, is the war right etc.
I didn't make it up.

Note that I am yet to say a comment from you was dumb, but you (and others here) have no problem doing so...talk about civil discourse...
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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [Dapper Dan] [ In reply to ]
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-- I don't see how you can possibly compare the two. Hollywood and television pilfer society for a profit. It matters very little to them whether they are influencing people in dangerous ways, as long as people are watching and the money is rolling in, they are doing their duty to their stockholders. They push the limits further and further every year.

I don't disagree that Hollywood can be very detrimental to society, so are video games, news broadcasts etc. War is the same thing...it is really showing young kids that its ok for us to kill people if we do not agree with what they are doing.

-- Bush, on the other hand, made a decision, in conjuction with his advisors, based on the data he had at the time. That data pointed to an Iraqi threat. The British intelligence was similar. I would say it would be immoral to do nothing and let that threat develop, when it can be stopped now at the cost of a few thousand soldiers. Having an army as a deterent isn't very effective if your enemy never engages the army. Do you think the next evil dictator is going to think we are bluffing?


Unfortunately, this answers my question. Its ok for a thousands of Americans to go to die but it isn't ok for someone who has an err in judgement and gets pregnant to have an abortion. God would condone the death of Iraqis and American soldiers because we "thought" they had weapons, but he wouldn't condone an abortion caused by a mistake. It seems to me that you are picking and choosing when to apply value to human life?
Last edited by: TTTorso: Nov 9, 04 11:55
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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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I read way too many of these threads. Didn't see it. Tell me it ain't so. I can't believe any group of people said they would give up Allah. Even if a few posters said it, does that qualify as tradition?

Do you have a link?

Apologies if this was not civil, though actually I do think you called on of my posts stupid just the other day. Of course, maybe it was.
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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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no the second part was to add some sarcasm...although some posts suggested that if they discovered the teaching of the christ...

the part that was not suggested was that "they don't like it now, because they don't know any better"...

I'll dig up some of the 'best' answers...
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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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why are the issues associated with moral values the decisive factors in this election, when these moral values are virtually no impact on most people's life

It's exactly that attitude that bothers so many people. (I'm not a "Christian Fundamentalist. I've been accused of being a fundamentalist Catholic, but I admit the existence of no such creature. And I didn't vote for Bush.)

If moral values have virtually no impact on most people's lives, why is the Left so damn worried that Christian values might be in ascent?

The moral values of any society have a huge and pervasive effect on the people within that society. It's fantasy to believe that we are all just individuals, each making our own moral choices in a vacuum, and can remain unaffected by all the other moral choices individuals make. That isn't what a society/culture/people is. Nor can a people remain any sense of unity or cohesiveness in the absence of a prevalent set of values, or under a scheme in which morality is perceived to be strictly a private and individual affair.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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If moral values have virtually no impact on most people's lives, why is the Left so damn worried that Christian values might be in ascent?


I could care less about who/how many people subscribe to Christian values...what I don't want is our laws based on the teachings of the Christian Church. It's fine for you to believe it, but don't expect ME to live by YOUR code of Christian ethic. One can be a good, decent person and live their life in manner that is productive within society without having their values be driven by being Christian. Not being a Christian and being a "decent person" are not mutually exclusive.

In short, I'm not concerned by Christian values being on the ascent, I'm concerned about the influence of Christian values on public life being on the ascent...you know, that whole separation of church and state thing.
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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [swimcoach] [ In reply to ]
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Note to Self: Ryan, you stupid idiot. You keep saying the same things over and over. Get it through your thick head that people will believe what they wish to be true, and pointing out the reality of the situation is just wasting your time. Go spend your time more wisely and go run. I swear I have to keep telling you these things over and over and you won't listen.

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I am thinking that Christians and non-Christians see "Christian Values" as being almost completely different things. To me Christian Values come from the teachings of Christ ... which include A LOT of things that are nowhere near influencing legality ... and never have.

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
Last edited by: TripleThreat: Nov 9, 04 13:17
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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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"why is the Left so damn worried that Christian values might be in ascent?"

I can't buy alcohol on sundays or any day after 9pm or any holiday.
I can't get a tattoo.
I can't watch "The Tin Drum"
I can't view pornography.
Stores are only allowed to sell beer that is less than 3.2% alcohol.

These are all laws here in OK. That's just off the top of my head -- I'm sure there's more.
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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [rb5980] [ In reply to ]
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I can't buy alcohol on sundays or any day after 9pm or any holiday.
I can't get a tattoo.
I can't watch "The Tin Drum"
I can't view pornography.
Stores are only allowed to sell beer that is less than 3.2% alcohol.


Not appreciating the horror of your situation, I guess.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Bush's Secularist Triumph [ In reply to ]
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Interesting read. From Slate.

Bush's Secularist Triumph
The left apologizes for religious fanatics. The president fights them.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Tuesday, Nov. 9, 2004, at 7:34 AM PT

Many are the cheap and easy laughs in which one could indulge at the extraordinary, pitiful hysteria of the defeated Democrats. "Kerry won," according to one e-mail I received from Greg Palast, to whom the Florida vote in 2000 is, and always will be, a combination of Gettysburg and Waterloo. According to Nikki Finke of the LA Weekly, the Fox News channel "called" Ohio for Bush for reasons too sinister to enumerate. Gregory Maniatis, whose last communication to me had predicted an annihilating Democratic landslide, kept quiet for only a day or so before forwarding the details on how to emigrate to Canada. Thus do the liberals build their bridge to the 20th century.

Who can care about this pathos? Not I. But I do take strong exception to one strain in the general moaning. It seems that anyone fool enough to favor the re-election of the president is by definition a God-bothering, pulpit-pounding Armageddon-artist, enslaved by ancient texts and prophecies and committed to theocratic rule. I was instructed in last week's New York Times that this was the case, and that the Enlightenment had come to an end, by no less an expert than Garry Wills, who makes at least one of his many livings by being an Augustinian Roman Catholic.

I step lightly over the ancient history of Wills' church (which was the originator of the counter-Enlightenment and then the patron of fascism in Europe) as well as over its more recent and local history (as the patron, protector, and financier of child-rape in the United States, and the sponsor of the cruel "annulment" of Joe Kennedy's and John Kerry's first marriages). As far as I know, all religions and all churches are equally demented in their belief in divine intervention, divine intercession, or even the existence of the divine in the first place.

But all faiths are not always equally demented in the same way, or at the same time. Islam, which was once a civilizing and creative force in many societies, is now undergoing a civil war. One faction in this civil war is explicitly totalitarian and wedded to a cult of death. We have seen it at work on the streets of our own cities, and most recently on the streets of Amsterdam. We know that the obscene butchery of filmmaker Theo van Gogh was only a warning of what is coming in Madrid, London, Rome, and Paris, let alone Baghdad and Basra.

So here is what I want to say on the absolutely crucial matter of secularism. Only one faction in American politics has found itself able to make excuses for the kind of religious fanaticism that immediately menaces us in the here and now. And that faction, I am sorry and furious to say, is the left. From the first day of the immolation of the World Trade Center, right down to the present moment, a gallery of pseudointellectuals has been willing to represent the worst face of Islam as the voice of the oppressed. How can these people bear to reread their own propaganda? Suicide murderers in Palestine—disowned and denounced by the new leader of the PLO—described as the victims of "despair." The forces of al-Qaida and the Taliban represented as misguided spokespeople for antiglobalization. The blood-maddened thugs in Iraq, who would rather bring down the roof on a suffering people than allow them to vote, pictured prettily as "insurgents" or even, by Michael Moore, as the moral equivalent of our Founding Fathers. If this is liberal secularism, I'll take a modest, God-fearing, deer-hunting Baptist from Kentucky every time, as long as he didn't want to impose his principles on me (which our Constitution forbids him to do).

One probably should not rest too much on the similarity between Bin Laden's last video and the newly available DVD of Fahrenheit 9/11. I would only say that, if Bin Laden had issued a tape that with equal fealty followed the playbook of Karl Rove (and do please by all means cross yourself at the mention of this unholy name), it might have garnered some more attention. The Bearded One moved pedantically through Moore's bill of indictment, checking off the Florida vote-count in 2000, the "Pet Goat" episode on the day of hell, the violent intrusion into hitherto peaceful and Muslim Iraq, and the division between Bush and the much nicer Europeans. (For some reason, unknown to me at any rate, he did not attack the President for allowing the Bin Laden family to fly out of American airspace.)

George Bush may subjectively be a Christian, but he—and the U.S. armed forces—have objectively done more for secularism than the whole of the American agnostic community combined and doubled. The demolition of the Taliban, the huge damage inflicted on the al-Qaida network, and the confrontation with theocratic saboteurs in Iraq represent huge advances for the non-fundamentalist forces in many countries. The "antiwar" faction even recognizes this achievement, if only indirectly, by complaining about the way in which it has infuriated the Islamic religious extremists around the world. But does it accept the apparent corollary—that we should have been pursuing a policy to which the fanatics had no objection?

Secularism is not just a smug attitude. It is a possible way of democratic and pluralistic life that only became thinkable after several wars and revolutions had ruthlessly smashed the hold of the clergy on the state. We are now in the middle of another such war and revolution, and the liberals have gone AWOL. I dare say that there will be a few domestic confrontations down the road, over everything from the Pledge of Allegiance to the display of Mosaic tablets in courtrooms and schools. I have spent all my life on the atheist side of this argument, and will brace for more of the same, but I somehow can't hear Robert Ingersoll* or Clarence Darrow being soft and cowardly and evasive if it came to a vicious theocratic challenge that daily threatens us from within and without.

Correction, Nov. 9, 2004: The original version of this article incorrectly referred to Robert Ingersoll as "Ralph" Ingersoll.

Christopher Hitchens is a columnist for Vanity Fair. His latest collection of essays, Love, Poverty and War, is published this month.
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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [rb5980] [ In reply to ]
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Stores are only allowed to sell beer that is less than 3.2% alcohol.

What????!!! That itself is a crime.

BTW, what the hell do tattoos and booze have to do with Christianity? Oh yeah, nothing.

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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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You know that slippery slope you're always talking about, Vitus?

Apply it to the christians values crowd, and you end up with the taliban.
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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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I think it ties in to the "your body is a temple" bit in the bible.

Tattoos aren't allowed because they 'deface' the body.

Alcohol isn't allowed because it's a vice.

You can also throw gambling in there.
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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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i look at it this way. if i am opposed to a gay lifestyle and the state permits gay marriage(or tacitly approves gay marriage by refusing to prohibit it), it really doesn't affect me, because i am still opposed and no rights are taken from me. but if i am gay and a prohibition on gay marriage is passed, rights are removed from me.

another example: suppose i believe porn is sinful. refusing to ban porn doesn't affect me, because i still think it's sinful, i won't look at it, and i will ensure my kids never see it. but if i am a porn afficionado and a more expansive ban on porn is passed, i then have rights taken away.

it's my opinion that the left/social libertarian positions permits people to live as they see fit and thus, their moral standards don't really affect most people's day to day lives. the religious/right/socially conservative platform, on the other hand, forces people to live a certain way or by a certain ethical code, and thus the ascendancy of christian values would have an affect...




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [rb5980] [ In reply to ]
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Apply it to the christians values crowd, and you end up with the taliban.

Can we agree that there needs to be a prevalent value system, not necessarily Christian, in order for a society to survive intact?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [rb5980] [ In reply to ]
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Now you sound like some religious fanatic. Some groups have used that expression to try and control everything people do (no smoking, no drinking, etc). That is doing something that is OUTSIDE of the Bible.

The body is the Lord's temple, so keep it SPIRITUALLY pure.

If what you were saying was literal Christians would be against fast food, twinkies, preservatives, McDonalds, etc.

How dare you dedgrade the Lord's Temple with that Super-Sized #5 you hethan. Release from him, you wicked Spawn of Satan! ... sounds like a Jim carrey bit.

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: First topic of the new era: Moral values [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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yes.
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