Josh...can you explain how, from an end user standpoint, this makes a difference?

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Why does this matter at all?

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Picky differences, but a structural fairing should be both lighter and more aer. Lighter due to having both the aluminum and carbon sharing the load, vs just the aluminum with the carbon added on and providing no support. Also the spokes should be both shorter and stronger because they only have to reach to the carbon.

More aero (and this is admittedly minor) because the spoke on a structural carbon rim exit the apex of the rim versus out of the sides of the rim.

Mind you I'm strictly speaking about the differences in the construction methods. How well these 2 products optimized the construction I have no idea.

Styrrell

Maybe, but ultimately what matters is how much each wheel weighs. Not theoretical construction advantages =)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I can't speak for everyone, but if you race in a rainy climate (as I do), the fairing type wheels pick up a significant amount of water (people who live in Arizona or something seem to dispute this every time I mention it, but oh well..). While I'm a believe that weight doesn't matter that much, they can pick up a LOT of water. There are some drain holes in the new ones, but from what I've seen last year (picking up a teammates wheel after a 3 hr road race in the rain), they don't work.

valid point there, i could see that happening.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Who's crazy enough to race 3 hrs in the rain? ;-)

Seriously, this is a legitimate answer to the above questions...of course, does this mean that the spoke holes on a Zipp rim are sealed? How does the water get out of the hollow cavity of a Zipp rim?

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Maybe it's not about the water getting out, but about it not getting in (as much) in the first place?

I used some HED Jet (or Jet-style...don't know what they called them at the time) wheels for a few months quite some time ago, and at least back then there was at least 1 mm of clearance around each spoke as it passed through the (side of the) fairing on its way to the rim. I never rode the wheels in the rain, but I could certainly see how such a design would admit far more water than a structural carbon rim where the spoke holes are filled with nipples that are pulled against their seat with quite some force.

As for aerodynamics, the theoretical disadvantage to Jet-style wheels is the fact that the spoke pass through the fairing slightly off-center, i.e., are staggered right-left-right, etc. Whether it truly makes a difference I don't know, but Hed used to use this as an argument of why their structural wheels were a "step up".

I've used my Jet 90 at Muncie in the heavy rain. I didn't notice any water getting in the wheel.

jaretj

Since Josh jumped in, I now feel the need to add to his comments, specifically "The FP80 wheel matches the Hed in Aero performance, weight,". The FP front wheel actually beats the rear Jet 90 for weight, in fact it is 24G lighter. But it is 170g heavier than a Jet 90 front. The difference in the pair weight is about 300g.
Aerodynamically, I pretty much agree. Our data from running them in the same session at LSWT shows that the Jet 90 only has about 5g lower drag.

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Andy Tetmeyer (I work at HED)

first off, I hate you.....

secondly--the water doesn't seem to get in nearly as much in the Zipps (or a Stinger type rim) since the spoke nipple basically 'seals' the rim, at least with external nipples. I haven't used an internal nipple Zipp in the rain, so I can't comment there. Some water does get in (probably around the valve stem), and that water doesn't get out--you have to remove the tire/tube to get that water out--but it is a very small amount.

Maybe for triathlon this isn't a big deal. Road racing in the rain, you get the 'pressure washer' effect of road spray coming from everywhere.

True...there are clearances at the spoke entry points...but there are also some significant "drain" holes out where the cap meets the rim. I'm sure centripetal acceleration would help force the water out of those drains...

That said, I have a standing rule for myself that, since it's just a hobby, I don't race bikes in the rain :-)

Heck, one of the main reasons I live in SoCal is so I don't even have to train in the rain...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

you know, you'd be surprised. road racing in the rain is pretty damn safe, at least in a climate where everyone does it--and in categories where people have been racing for a while.

I agree with you though-I wouldn't enjoy racing in the rain with a bunch of Californians........

Even the pros crash a whole lot more when it rains

granted, they seem to get less chewed up by the road when they do

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Hmmm...so are you saying that a FP80 is actually much lower drag than an 808? At least that's what that statement coupled with this plot would imply (assuming the "82mm" wheel is an 808)...



Just trying to keep y'all "honest" in this thread ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Heck...I don't even like driving here when it rains...you should see the yahoos all over the road <rolleyes>

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

just imagine if it snowed for ~ six months of the year :-)

Hehe...even better than watching the antics of SoCal drivers when it rains...is watching them in "snow country" (i.e. near the ski resorts) trying to drive during a snowfall. Truly comical.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

There has clearly been a lot of discussion over the validity of the data that Tom A posted, and I will add that the '82mm' data looks very suspicious if it is supposed to be an 808. Having said that, Gigantex in taiwan makes 3 different 82mm profile rims that they sell to anybody and everybody, so clearly we set the std . Our data, and both sets of published Tour Magazine data show the 808 having peak minimum drag at 12.5 degrees and that drag being roughly half of the drag at zero degrees...this graph shows the peak minimum occuring at 7.5 degrees at roughly 70% of zero degree drag...so this data looks nothing like either of the published Tour Mag graphs, which match the published Zipp data almost exactly.

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http://www.SILCA.cc
Check out my podcast, inside stories from more than 20 years of product and tech innovation from inside the Pro Peloton and Pro Triathlon worlds!
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That is the sweetest Uni-brow I've seen in a while... bravo.

i'm spinning my wheels trying to make sense of this thread. Lots of different wheels here. JET 90, FP 80, JET C2 90, ZIPP 808.

I'll tell you what I just ordered one of them and I'm psyched to test it out.

Hey josh,

Any chance you can distinguish between the new SRAM S80 and the Flashpoint 80s? They look to be the exact same except maybe 50g weight difference? Will they be the same price of $1400 or will the flashpoints change to make room?

Thanks

Fair points and observations. The flashpoints do seem like a great deal. I think they are based on old Zipp molds, correct?

SWEET! Thanks for the reference to Wheelbuilder.com. I saw those on Darrel Eng's bike at Wildflower; I didn't know who made them. Back in the late '80's and early '90's I had the original UNI disc cover, some other plastic thingy from Nytro sports, and the famous J-disc (those were damn cool but fragile).
I have to say, for 65 bucks, how can you go wrong? They've got to give 90% of the aero advantage of a "real" disc wheel.

I think I'll try them on the Alps wheel.

Anyone know how heavy these things are?