Very good points. I am a physcian and am sometimes shocked that people turn to a forum such as this for medical advise. SEE A PROFESSIONAL. There are a lot of wivestales, hearsay and plain bad advise floating around in this forum. And another thing, "alternative medicine" is just a bunch of crap to make money from homespun remedies which have not been proven to work by randomized double blinded studies. "Drugs" are just "herbs" which have been proven by the scientific method to actually work. Rant over.

alternative medicine simply means there is no reason to believe that it works. Once there is reason to believe it works it is no longer alternative. It's always good to hear some common sense of this subject - thanks slick.

Taku and slick, my only problem is that it seems that dr.'s with any common sense are few and far between. How do you find a dr. that is any good?

My own limited experience, general practioner says he doesn't know what is wrong with me and suggests checking with an allergist, ent (for sinus), and if all those come back negative, check with a neurologist. The allergist reports I'm allergic to proctically everything (BS!!). The ENT says I need my head drilled out to relieve pressure on my sinus - granted I live in Houston, everyone has bad sinus problems periodically. The neurologist comes up with his diagnosis as well. All 3 doctors say they are confident they have found the problem. The allergist and neurologist gaurantee 100% that they have found the problem and there can not be another reason!!! The ENT says he is only positive that I need my head drilled out but can't gaurantee that it will stop the pain.

The only dr. worth a damm was the GP and he couldn't help.

I am under no illusions that every doctor is fantastic... having said that having a doctor is better than nothing. It is unfortunate that people feel that they have to turn to a message board to get emergency medical advice...

If you are unhappy with your doctor act like the consumer that you are and shop around for another one... Like bikes fit is the most important thing

Perhaps one day I will open a doctor fitting buisiness and give Tom Demerly a run for his money

Is there any set of criteria for choosing a good dr? What questions should I ask him to determine if he is a good dr?

So far the only way I know is to try dumb luck until I find a good one. There are a lot of dr's in the Houston area - random chance just isn't going to work.

I don't mean to be antagonistic, I'm just ignorant on this subject and hoping to learn from someone who may have some good answers.

I think it’s difficult to come with some question up in order to choose a good dr. I believe what taku wrote reflects a more realistic situation. I think you should ask your doctor to explain to you, in an understandable language, which conditions can cause the symptoms you present, which exams can lead to a final diagnosis, which treatments are available according to the evidence-based medicine, the pros and cons of all the alternatives, their possible side effects and expected results, and so on. If your dr is not able to answer you these questions in a consistent way, then you may want to look for a second opinion. Ask your friends or neighbors, do they have good drs.? Do they trust’em? Or ask one of the drs you trust: does he have any colleague of a given specialty that he could refer you to?

The situation you’ve been trough is pretty common nowadays, since drs. are becoming more and more specialized… Maybe if they talked to each other, they could exchange thoughts, reach a consensus, and give you a better treatment and a greater level of confidence…

My top 10 list of health...even though you didn't ask for it:

1. Doctors are people.

2.Some are better than others at getting a diagnosis right...that means that some are worse, and don't get it right often enough.

3. EVERY doctor makes mistakes...see #1 above.

4. YOU, the patient, are responsible for making the choices which affect your health. If you don't understand the doctor's advice, either get the doctor to explain it until you do understand it, or get another doctor, or trust that the explanation is beyond your comprehension. Still, it is up to the individual to make sure their health is being cared for in the way that is satisfactory.

5. Quit thinking there is a majic pill for every ailment.

6. When there is a majic pill that miraculously can cure your ailment, quitcherbitchin about the cost. You can choose not to take it. It's not a right to have the best healthcare in the world (at least, not yet, not in the USA), it is a priviledge, and unless that is changed, that is just the way it is.

7. A good doctor is a treasure beyond measure.

8. Exercise. Daily. Even if it is only mental exercise.

9. Eat right.

10. Don't listen to good advice at your own peril...see #4.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

if i might add to some of this stuff - i am an RN, and know a thing or two about doc's. might as well say it, some of them, many, are somewhat arrogant a-holes. B-U-T as ktalon sez, they are people. they are trained to be able to reach into people's chest cavities, and heads, and make decisions on the very thin line juggling a million different factors in a split second with life and death in the balance. and then do it again and again. frankly, it is the very very rare person who would do this routinely and NOT be arrogant to some degree. in fact, i think a certain degree of arrogance (confidence) might be just what i want in a dr !! same as in my military officer or general.

and, i do not mind calling dr's "Dr., or "sir" one bit. frankly, they know than you or me and they deserve it. to equate their knowledge with some guy selling oriental pig's bile is off the scale of silly, iff'n you ask me. same with the internet as our original poster suggested - apart from some random anecdotal "what does this mean for me" type question or the like.

"alternative medicine" is just a bunch of crap to make money from homespun remedies which have not been proven to work by randomized double blinded studies"



All right-I can't let a dig at my industry go without a response. I don't know what you mean by "alternative medicine", but I assume you mean supplements. Maybe you don't, and if that's the case, please just disregard this "rant".

One of the many problems I see with "medicine" is people don't bother to read the actual studies done on supplements. They just read what the newspaper says, or what their pharmaceutical sales rep says, or what one of thier patients/coworkers/friends say. There are plenty of people who have an interest in perpetuating negative attitudes about supplements, and there are plenty of people that don't know how to read a clinical trail. So it's easy to get "misinformation".

When it comes to supplements, there are tons of double blind, placebo controlled studies. There was a study quoted in the JAMA a couple of years ago stating that Ginkgo helped with the beginning stages of alzheimers' disease. This doesn't make this herb any less effective, it just means that no drug company can patent it since it's a natural plant. And didn't the JAMA just recently recommed that every adult take a multi-vitamin?

Having said that, I realize that there are tons of products out there that are just a big rip off. They are usually put out by companies that don't have the history of testing their products. These companies are just in it for the money.

But to say that "alternative medicine is a bunch of crap" just doesn't make sense anymore.

To turn it around, I could just as easily say things like "traditional medicine is a bunch of crap." It's a documented fact that "you" kill over 100,000 people every year. I don't say generalizations like that because I think there is a time and place for traditional medicine, and a place for "complementary" medicine. I think there are some awesome doctors out there, and some terrible ones. Just like I think there are some companies/people in "complementary" medicine that are very reputable, and there are plenty of "quacks".

I certainly don't have all of the answers. Call me nuts, but I see a day when there are "clinics" that patients can go to that will have staff members that are "specialist" in not only traditional medicine, but also complementary medicine. These clinics would actually consult with the patients to see what type of protocals they are comfortable with. A place that would explain all of the benefits and risks of different types of healing options. I know that day won't be here anytime soon, but I guess I can dream...

Jeff

Finding a good doctor is like finding a good plumber, lawyer, carpenter...etc. Word of mouth is probably the best way, and not from lay folk, from other docs. They know who is good and who isn't. Also a certain doc may be excellent and still not be able to completely fix every problem. Some diseases/illnesses are very hard to treat without one clearcut "right" treatment. Sometimes it comes down to trial and error. Also a doc may be good but may not understand the specific problems facing triathletes.

"alternative medicine" is just a bunch of crap to make money"

Sure there is an awful lot of crap out there but that is quite a broad base statement. IMO it depends what you consider to be "alternative". In twenty years of being a chiropractor I've noted that therapies such as spinal manipulation, accupuncture, herbal medicine, nutritional therapies, etc. that were considered "alternative" or even quackery twenty years ago by conventional medicine, have gained near mainstream acceptance. In some cases, conventional medicine is now even trying to claim these as their own. It's been my observation that the doctors that poo-poo these therapies the most are usually the ones who know the least about it.

Show me well constructed unbiased double blinded randomized trials proving statistically significant results and I will believe ANY therapy as effective no matter how unusual. It's called the scientific method. Most "alternative" therapies do not have a good track record in this regard. But hey, people will believe in all kinds of therapies without a shred of proof.

Sometimes it is really hard to find a good doctor (or any doctor at all if you live in Ontario, Canada). We moved about a year and a half ago and were fortunate enough to get in with my inlaws family doctor. The problem with many family practioners is that they don't have a clue about training and obsessive-compulsive athletes! When I met my new doctor, he asked if I exercised at all. I told him that I usually did somewhere between 12 and 25 hours a week, depending on the time of year. His response was "aren't you afraid of damaging your knees when you get older?". AAAAAAARRRRRRGH!!!!!!! What kind of rehab advice/running injury recommendations would I get from him? Probably something like ..... "if you stop training you won't have to worry about it". Medical advice for athletes would be so much easier to get if all doctors did triathlons or ran marathons :)

I can show you a summery of over 400 clinical studies showing the effectiveness of spinal manipulation with low back pain done in a government sponsored study called the Manga Report here in Canada. There are also lots of good studies dealing with accupuncture, as well as various herbal and nutritional therapies.

Doesn't this pose an ethical dilema. These therapies obviously worked for very long time before anyone bothered doing a double blind study. More likely the only reason why the study was done in the first place was because of considerable emperical and testimonial evidence which prompted some researchers interest. Had practitionors sat around waiting for for a green light from some studies without first just going ahead with the therapies think of all the people that would not have benefited.

Most of these therapies do not have the collective might and bias of the highly profitable drug industry ad it's historically collaborative partner the AMA behind them. Just because a double blinded study doesn't exist, it doesn't necessarily mean that a given therapy doesn't work. It could also mean simply that a double blinded study hasn't been done yet.

Let's not forget that it was only fifty years ago when the official AMA position was that infants should be fed cows milk and not human milk. This was based on their study paid for by the dairy industry.

Spoken like a true chiropracter.

"Spoken like a true chiropracter."
Well at least perhaps that means we're predictable which is something I haven't found with MD's. Of the two around the corner from my office, one comes to me for the occasional treatment while the other barely even says hello. Interesting when you consider that we all share some of the same patients.

There has been a long history of medical people being influenced by money. The details are fuzzy but there was a huge controversy with the american heart association and their dietary guidelines being influenced by industry...

Anyways since we got to the topic of "alternative medicine" Things work both ways also. 7 years ago there was a huge policy change where the vitamin industry lobbied the US government. Now vitamins don't have to be tested for safety or otherwise. That's why there is not standardization and very little testing with vitamins.

Hey you know what medicine have made some grevious errors in the past (liberal use of x rays) but things have changed. Hey but chiropractics is the same story too. The die hard traditionalist chiroprachter will tell you that ANY condition (cancer, TB, etc. ) can be treated with spinal maniuplation... Uh I would bet my life that you cannot cure cancer with spinal manipulation.

the point being no one has the right answers, that is whay research is done in all of these areas. The danger is when practices aren't looked at and researched. You run the risk of cuasing harm, even doing nothing can be bad if there are other better treatments available.

Just so people know there is a large movement towards testing "alternative" therapies. If anyone is interested there is more information at

http://nccam.nih.gov/

"(liberal use of x rays)...but chiropractics is the same story too. The die hard traditionalist chiroprachter will tell you that ANY condition can be treated with spinal maniuplation..."

Taku, I can't disagree with you. Those philosophically based "strait" chiros are an embarrassment and have impeded our progress into mainstream acceptence. Also the routine use of full spine x-rays is totally unnecessary.

As or myself, I have a musculo-skeletal orientated practice with based upon knowledge of biomechanics, orthopeadics and neuroolgy. If something comes into the office outside of my scope ofpractice it gets referred out to the appropriate specialist or to the family physician. I do see some sports injuries but probably 80% is either neck or low back problems. As for x-rays, I got rid of my x-ray machine years ago and use the local hospital and radiologists.

Before this gets out of hand I want to say that I don't have a problem with all chiropracters, just those that can't or won't face the limitations of their treatment modality. For temporary symptomatic relief of chronic non-surgical back pain there may be some benefit although not all studies have shown this. At any rate if patients believe it helps I can't see the harm. The problem lies in those chiro's (and there are several in my town) who treat everything under the sun with "spinal adjustments" including ear infections, asthma, headaches, even cancer. One particularly dangerous chiro insists that children receive routine "adjustments" and NEWBORN BABIES be "adjusted" immediately after birth. If your profession wants any credibility it needs to conform to the scientific method and purge the teaching and practice of these unproven and potentially dangerous practices by some of your colleages.

Chiro's no matter how much I think that 80% of them are idiots who take on the name "Doctor" via the internet (I know of one who is a PhD in "Color Symptomatic Illness" - no shit, $35.00 on the internet you can be a doctor too).

No matter the fact that Chiro docs are in the medical fields (mostly Ortho) considered "Quacks"

The fact is MANY people swear by them. Some are good, some are bad. You will get that with anything from bike mechanics to surgeons. It is not fair to put all Chiros in the same melting pot...unless you know that everyone in the field that you work in is pure as the driven snow, and 100% qualified.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Hi taku, I hope school is going well. this is an excellent point but I do want to point something out. Here in the U.S. healthcare is in a crisis with health insurance. Many people do not have the option of good preventive health care. Cancer screenings, cardiac exams and other preemptive measures are often not available or affordable to people who are uninsured or underinsured. As a small business we pay an inordinate amount for health insurance with marginal results from marginal doctors. I know your recommendations are solid and you didn't have any political motivation for them but here in the U.S. we need some medical system reform- I'm not sure how, but it has to be in the top five things on the national agenda along with our international role in the global community, our economy, civil and human rrights within the U.S. and education.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Jumping in the defense and the ridicule of surgeons. Recent publicatiosn site that around 70 - 80 percent of the population is walking around with "bulging discs" with and without symptoms. For a long time these (and even now) these were considered surgical candidates. However the hug number of people walking around with non-symptomatic bulging discs have cast SERIOUS doubt on the old anatomical theory that a bulging disc is a causative lesion for back pain (this is different from a herniated or ruptured disk)

Just becuase a surgeon does a procedure does not mean that it is bening or even effective. Last year there was a land mark study that showed that a placebo surgery was NO BETTER than a arthoscopic knee surgery for osteo arthritis. This also means that the real surgery was worse than doing nothing becuase of the inherent risks of surgery and even being in the hospital... Yes there are dangerous things that are being done in chiro but there are also dangerous things that are being done in traditional medicine.

In regards to chiroproactics. In the last 5 to 10 years there have been a growing literature on chiropractics. The jury is still out but the research is growing. If you would like I could direct you towards some of these journals.

You want cheaper health care? Easy answer...and yes I am an expert in this filed.

Limit the payouts for liability in Malpractice and Mis-Use suits. As stated earlier, doctors are human...

Did you all know that doctors on average only collect 30% of what they bill? Did you know that the insurance companies will pay less and less for the same procedure year after year? Did you know that most of the cases of people going after the drug companies is people who MIS USED the drugs they are complaining about?

The issue is not the Doctors bills...it is the lawyers bills.



Case's

1 . Woman had a kid. Doctor told her that she would be there for the birth. Woman had kid six weeks early due to unknown causes. Doctor was on vacation and out of town. "Doctor promised that she would be there for the birth and was not there"...patient collected a settlement of over $200,000.00 as the doctor "Did not provide the services that were promised"

2. Woman walks into PC office an states she has head aches - wanted drugs. Doctor denies drugs and orders an MRI, because if the pain is that bad they should check for causes. Woman gets MRI (normal) and never comes back in for MRI results or follow-up. Doctor gets supeona and is sued because "Before that MRI she had ESP" Yes, ESP. Well after the MRI her ESP was gone...she collected a settlement (out of court, less than 10k).

3. Woman sues dotor because she was on "the pill" and got pregnant...she collected from the Doctor AND Ortho Novum (low dollars, less than the Atty's would have cost to fight it.)



That my freinds is what is wrong with health care in this country - it is the patients and their lawyers, not the doctors.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I have to agree with you 100% here Slick. But I would take this one step further, if "dietary" (and I use the term loosely) supplements also need to be regulated in regards to their production. As it is now, there are no standards, no regulatory body that says they have to have as much of the ingredient in the supplement as purported, no standard to purity or source of the supplement, etc, etc as the drug company's have to. We can thank Orin Hatch for filling the American people bodies with junk and the "dietary" supplement company's pockets with cash.

There have been studies done in regards to what are in the supplements people buy. Most don't have but a small fraction of what the label claims, some, don't even have the "active" ingredient. Plus, as eluded to in an earlier post, most medications were derived in one form or another from natural products, or structural deviations of them. With medications, one knows what to expect from taking a given amount for most people and in what dosages. No one knows this from supplements because of their lack of regulation. The American public is being duped!

One last thing. I can make up a double blinded randomized placebo trial for anything, and with a small number of people, and the wrong statistical methodology, achieve the result that I want!

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"If your profession wants any credibility "

Realizing this has nothing to do with tri, but I'll still put in my last $.02.

Spinal adjustment/manipulation effectiveness with headaches is well documented, so much so that like low back pain, it's now a given. I can provide you with references if you want. I've treated lots of people with asthma but have never claimed to be able to cure them. However, they will tell me that it helps. I believe the reason for this is that the treatments tend to relax the muscles and joints of the thoracic spine giving the sensation of being able to breath easier although not curing the ailment itself. This is a perfectly logical explanation.

Any chiro or anyone else who claims to be able to cure cancer should be locked up and have the key thrown away. The chiro that claims all new borns should receive treatments after birth is a loon and the parents who believe him are even worse. I treat kids in my office, but only for the same type of musculo-skeletal conditions that they could see as an adult.

Part of the problem that you have in the USA is that there are so many chiro colleges. Some are quite scientific in their approach while others aren't. Here in Canada we have only one college in the entire country and I would say that it's approach is quite scientific.

As I had a Master of Science degree in biochemistry before becoming a chiro, how much more scientific do you want me to be?

I will say that I for one an not at all heistant in thinking that you not only have well cared for patients, you obviously are at the head of your field. Certainly FAR ahead of many of the Chiro guys I have known and worked with. (I do know one that is a DO and Chiro, very nice guy, very professional and also my personal Primary Care).

If it was more regulated in the US, I am certain that we would have better qualified guys and have a much better option for our American patients.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Gatordawg-What country are you from? I feel bad for you wherever it is. Fortunately for us here in the United States we have two federal agencies that over look the supplement industry. The FDA and the FTC. So there is plenty of regulation.

Under the law, the FDA can, among other things, seize dietary supplements that pose a “significant or unreasonable risk of illness or injury,” stop the sale of an entire class of dietary supplements if they pose an imminent public health hazard, refer for criminal action any company that sells a dietary supplement that is toxic or unsanitary, and obtain an injunction against the sale of a dietary supplement that has false or unsubstantiated claims.

And again, here is the USA, whenever the more "reputable" brands are sent to the lab, they almost always pass with flying colors. Yes, there are always unscrupulous companies that try to rip off the public, but this is certainly the exception, not the norm.

And about DSHEA, this law was unanimously passed. More letters were written in support of this law than any other in history. So it was more than Hatch that wanted this law, it was most of the American people.

Many people don't understand the extent that the FDA and FTC regulate my industry. On the other hand, there are plenty of people who have a vested interest in "bashing" my industry. Hopefully you have learned a little bit more about how our industry works.

If people don't know how my industry works, I can see why they would say it is unrugulated. But after looking at the facts, saying it is unregulated is like saying the world is flat.

Jeff

I believe that there is a role for viamins in a helathful lifestyle. However the law that passed placed vitmains in the same category as food upplements thus releasing them from the requirements of testing similar to how drugs are treated.

Vitamins have the potential to be dangerous and there needs to be more education about the dangerous potentials of vitamins. For example coagulationopathies with excessive vitamin E intake, p450 induction from st. john's wort, hypertension from ephedra, Herbal Phen-fen and ARDS. The list goes on and on.

My personal view is that there needs to be more testing and better education with regards to vitamins. Becuase the supplement industry is not required to do the same sorts of testing as the phramaceutical industry the research in this department has lagged behind considerably.

Then again this is my personal view and not reflected by the majority of the voting public.

As an interesting aside this issue of change the regualtion of vitamins resulted in the second largest public response to their congressional leaders. (letters phone calls etc.) This was second only to the vietnam war.

I guess the point that I am tying to make is that the vitamin industry is an industry, as is the drug industry. Take what people say with a grain of salt cuase they are always going to try to paint themselves in the most positive light.

Vita, I live in the USA, and know a good deal about the FDA and FTC, especially being in a medical profession.....Interesting the spin your industry puts out there for the American people.....Supplements are not put through the same rigors of testing, and quality assurance standards that medication are....If you believe otherwise, you have been brainwashed.

What standards do dietary supplements have to meet that the FDA and FTC regulate?

Show me the data about your testing lab results for dietary supplements. Also, I would like to know what lab they are done in and any disclosure that would be appropriate.

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Taku, I agree with your post, but IMO when it comes to knowledge of substances one is putting in their body, the effects it will have on them, their disease state(s) (if applicable), and any medications they might be taking, the Infomercial is the most prolific educator....This is what the dietary supplement industry wanted, a windfall.......Because it is "natural" doesn't mean it is safe....See nightshade and fox glove!...BTW, didn't the dietary industry scare the American public by saying that not passing this legislation would amount to the government taking away their rights and it would make medication costs soar???

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The advertising industry actually points to the pro vitamin industry ads as being one of the most effective ever.

Teh commercial that many people may remember has Mel Gibson in his kitchen taking some vitamins when a team of swat members brake into his house and put guns to his head and Gibson says something to the effect of "hey guys there only vitamins" The announcer says something along the lines of don't let the congress take away your vitamins.

Having said that I think that supplementation has its role in nutrition. In many cases it has a very very important role. However the danger is believing everything that the industry says. (again the same thing goes for the pharmaceuticals)

Point being I am a equal opportunity skeptic.

Thanks for jarring my memory on that commercial.....I totally agree with you....we affectionately refer to drug reps as "drug reptiles" and their adds are pretty bad too!....But that is a whole other topic to include price gouging!!!

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Taku, believe it or not, I agree with you 100%.

Our industry is not perfect. But no industry is. And when people make absolute statements about my industry, it makes my blood boil. Especially because we all know they are not true.

Jeff

I don't ever remember saying that supplements are put through the same tests as drugs. If I did, I definitely mis-typed, because I know they are not. But there are plenty of regulations that the companies are supposed to follow. Of course there will always be unscrupulous companies that don't follow these guidelines. But if anyone says that there are no regulations, and that no companies products meet label claims, I would have to question if they are "brainwashed".

My point is that the FDA and the FTC do regulate supplements. And many of the supplement manufacturers follow the same guidelines created by the FDA for the pharmaceutical industry for things like potency and manufacturing.

Besides, don't many pharmaceutical companies now make supplements? This tells me at least two things. One, I would think that their standards are O.K. When you say no supplements meet label standards, are you also referring to the supplements made by pharmaceutical companies? And secondly, there must be at least some effectiveness to supplements since the pharmaceutical companies are now making these products.

Jeff

To answer your question about why pharmaceutical company's make supplements, it's because of the money they can make off of them due to their lack of regulation......The Pharmaceutical company's want to make money, and they are not going to spend theirs making supplements to the same standards as medicinals.....I don't have an issue with vitamins, the essential things we need to survive, but I do with everything else that is called a dietary supplement....Look at the proliferation of chemical entities that fall under and are sold as"dietary" supplements and why companies prefer to market things as such?...It's all about the dollar.....Believe me, I'm not defending the Pharmaceutical industry because I think they rape the American people too, I know the standards they manufacture by are tightly regulated and tested, where as the supplement industry is not...My opinion, but if you can educate me further with some studies or lab tests with full disclosure, I'd be happy to look at them.

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Gatordawg-Just thought I would post one last time on this subject. I think we are beginning to beat a dead horse.

Before I post my links, I want to clarify my point that I think that there are plenty of reputable companies out there making dietary supplements, and when people say things like

"There have been studies done in regards to what are in the supplements people buy. Most don't have but a small fraction of what the label claims, some, don't even have the "active" ingredient"

it just makes my blood boil. I mean really, when you go to your local bike shop and buy a box of Gu, do you really believe there are no carbs in there? Or if you go to a pharmacy and buy Citri-cal, do you think they don't put any calcium in it? And try buying a bottle of garlic oil, when you open it up, you will definitely smell the garlic in it.

I agree that there are plenty of dishonest supplement manufacturers, but overall, I feel the industry is producing good products. And as I've posted, the FDA and FTC have plenty of regulatory power over our industry.

So if you are interested, here are a few links that will help you understand my industry a little better.

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/ds-oview.html

A good page from the FDA's web page that explains what they and the FTC can and can not regulate.

http://www.nnfa.org/...ices/science/gmp.htm

http://www.nnfa.org/...ence/bg_TruLabel.htm

Two good pages that explain GMP (Good Manufacturing Practices) and TruLabel. (A program that assures potencies in supplements)

http://www.nowfoods.com/?cat_id=1495

A good page that explains their quality controls and talks a lot about their lab.

Hope this helps!!!

Jeff

thanks for the links I will read them when I get a chance


taku

Vita--I too will take a look at them..Thanks for the links.

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