We will be welcomed as liberators.

North Korea would probably send more long range missiles into the Sea of Japan, just to prove how advanced they really are.

Do you think Bush's policy of trying to get sanctions from the U.N and/or the diplomatic route is something different than the Democrats would do?

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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

No, we've been asking "what about North Korea" because they have always represented a bigger threat to the security of the region the world and this country than Iraq ever did.

We are asking why North Korea, which has been developing a nuclear program, which has been developing a balistic missile program, which has been rattling their sabre in our direction, has been ignored and all of our resources have been directed towards Iraq....because we had some satellite photos of some RVs in the desert that may or may not have had some mustard gas in them.

Now we have few if any options left to deter North Korea from its path towards being a full nuclear power. Our army is fully extended, and there is little if any will in this country to fight on another front even if we had the capability to do so. North Korea are holding all the cards and we are powerless to stop them short of a nuclear attack.

Thats why we've been asking "what about North Korea"

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

What threat does the RPK pose to the U. S.?? The RPK already displayed its ineptness by firing its long range missle into the sea. Their nuclear proliferation was started under the nose of the previous administration and discovered by this administration.

This administration is doing exactly what the lefties wanted it to do in the case of Iraq, but because it is this administration, the lefties don't think this is what should be done, so they bitch and moan and offer no solution as usual.

The RPK is not holding any cards, as you suggest. They have nothing to bargain with and even the Russians and the PRC are growing tired of the RPKs endless posturing. The RPK is less than relevant.

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THey are so irrelevant that every time they test fire another missile the price of gas goes up another 10 cents.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Oh how soon they forget.

I believe the democrats plan for NK was to give them fuel aid and nuclear reactors in exchange for them stopping their Nuclear Weapons program. That was the agreement Albright got in the 90's.

That didn't work out so good now did it? So to quote you Matt " Now we have few if any options left to deter North Korea from its path towards being a full nuclear power"

What threat does the RPK pose to the U. S.??

At least as much of a threat as Iraq ever did. Which is to say, not much, but I'm sure one could be manufactured if necessary. Certainly NK currently poses a greater threat to stability within its region than Iraq posed to the Middle East prior to invasion.

And I don't think that NK's nuclear program was started under Clinton's watch, nor was it "discovered" by this administration.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Gas prices did not go up $.70 since RNK fired its missles.

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I bet there's some threat, since they're probably for teaching creationism in schools

www.rpk.org/

Unless the poster was talking about the Kalashnikov light machine gun, which in large numbers in the wrong hands could also be a threat to the US.

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Allow me to be more precise:

1993 - RNK withdraws from the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty because of suspicions that it was developing nuclear weapons.

1994 - RNK agrees to cease its goal of producing Nuclear weapons in exchange for international aid to build two power-producing nuclear reactors.

1999 - U.S. President Bill Clinton eases economic sanctions against North Korea and A U.S.-led consortium signs a $4.6 billion contract to build two nuclear reactors in North Korea.

2000 - North Korea threatens to restart its nuclear program if Washington doesn't compensate for the loss of electricity caused by delays in building the two nuclear power plants.

2002 - U.S. officials say they have discovered evidence of a nuclear weapons program in North Korea. North Korea reactivates nuclear facilities at Yongbyon that were frozen under the 1994 deal with the United States.

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I am not seeing your point.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

And I don't think that NK's nuclear program was started under Clinton's watch, nor was it "discovered" by this administration.



Allow me to be more precise:

1993 - RNK withdraws from the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty because of suspicions that it was developing nuclear weapons. (RNK is suspected of trying to develop nuclear weapons)

1994 - RNK agrees to cease its goal of producing Nuclear weapons in exchange for international aid to build two power-producing nuclear reactors. (The U. S. asks the RNK nicely if they will stop trying to develop nuclear weapons and the RNK says OK, but you have to build us new reactors, which we will only use for clean power)

1999 - U.S. President Bill Clinton eases economic sanctions against North Korea and A U.S.-led consortium signs a $4.6 billion contract to build two nuclear reactors in North Korea. (Afterall, the RNK promised not to develop nukes)

2000 - North Korea threatens to restart its nuclear program if Washington doesn't compensate for the loss of electricity caused by delays in building the two nuclear power plants. (The nuclear power plants that the U. S promised the RNK in 1994 are behind schedule and the RNK wants to be compenstated for it or they will try to develop nuclear weapons)

2002 - U.S. officials say they have discovered evidence of a nuclear weapons program in North Korea. North Korea reactivates nuclear facilities at Yongbyon that were frozen under the 1994 deal with the United States. (surprise surprise! RNK was still developing nukes despite the assurances it gave to the previous administration)



Does that help??

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FYI: http://fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/nuke/

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

That just seems to be a more verbose description of what I already posted.

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No, it seems like a much more complete and accurate history of NK's nuclear program than your description, which to me looks like, "Clinton did it."

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

He surely helped a great deal. His un-ending quest for the Nobel Peace Prize via North Korea and the Middle East did nothing but enflame each situation.

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The reactor deal was incredibly stupid. Naive in the extreme. But NK's nuke program was already geared up, and was going to stay geared up.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

 
Well, one serious threat posed by N. Korea is their ability to proliferate nuclear technology to other unfriendly countries. Pakistan (our supposed ally) was already in that business. Now N. Korea can do the same. That can come back to haunt us long term.

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What threat does the RPK pose to the U. S.?? The RPK already displayed its ineptness by firing its long range missle into the sea. Their nuclear proliferation was started under the nose of the previous administration and discovered by this administration.

I agree that NK nuke program began well before Clinton was President. But the deals made with NK to stop their nuke program were made by Clinton. If it was "already geared up, and going to stay geared up."

1) Why did we do the deals if we knew we got nothing in return?

2) Why didn't we do something in 1994 before they had nuclear weapons?

Why did we do the deals if we knew we got nothing in return?

Hey, I said the deal was incredibly stupid and extremely naive. I would say we did them because Clinton, Albright, etc, figured they were soooo smart, and Kim Jong-il was sooooo nutso, that he couldn't possibly dupe them.

Why didn't we do something in 1994 before they had nuclear weapons?

Like what? Invade? In addition to the difficulties posed by that option, you have to remember that at that time, America had not yet adopted our current mindset, which can abide no existing threats, even potentially.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

"Hey, I said the deal was incredibly stupid and extremely naive. I would say we did them because Clinton, Albright, etc, figured they were soooo smart, and Kim Jong-il was sooooo nutso, that he couldn't possibly dupe them." So you agree "Hey Clinton did it"

"Like what" Lets start small and work our way up. (Option - Worst 1994 Response - Worst 2006)

Economic sanctions: NK 1994 response: attack SK. NK 2006 response nuke SK, Japan, western US

Naval Blockade: NK 1994 response: attack SK. NK 2006 response nuke SK, Japan, western US

Bomb Nuclear Sites: NK 1994 response: attack SK. NK 2006 response nuke SK, Japan, western US

Invade NK: NK 1994 response: attack SK. NK 2006 response nuke SK, Japan, western US

No matter how you look at it, action in 1994 was much easier than it is today. Unfortunately, I think our only hope is getting China involved. And we may have to threaten them "The United States will consider an attack by North Korea on any other country as an attack on the United States by China, requiring a full retaliatory response" Not a fun scenario for someone with a nine-week old.

So you agree "Hey Clinton did it"

If by "did it," you mean, "got played for a chump," yeah. If you mean, "contributed significantly to NK's nuclear program, no.

action in 1994 was much easier than it is today.

Why do we need to take any action? (Though if you think NK is going to nuke the world in response to economic sanctions, well . . . you're hyperventilating.)

The United States will consider an attack by North Korea on any other country as an attack on the United States by China, requiring a full retaliatory response"

Yeah . . . That's a reasonable ultimatum.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I consider allowing a nuke program by NK to go unchecked for 8 years contributing significantly.

NK says that economic sanctions will result in war. I'm not hyperventilating, that's what they are saying. NK knows it cannot survive without outside aid. Kim's a nut. What's worse giving up nukes or war? I don't trust crazy people.

That reasonable ultimatum got Russia to back down in Cuba. We haven't been able to get China to do anything to help out yet.

So what do we do?

That reasonable ultimatum got Russia to back down in Cuba.

The China/NK relationship today bears very little resemblance to the Cuban missile crisis.

So what do we do?

Nothing. What's going to happen?

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

The only reason that NK survives today is because of China. If China tells them to back down, they will. With a UN resolution China will probably abstain then not enforce economic sanctions. My fear is our only way to get China to enforce sanctions is with an ultimatum. Not a great situation we're in. It would have been easier to prevent this than deal with it.

"Nothing, What's going to happen?" NK currently sells it's missiles to other countries. They could start selling nukes. Iran buys a nuke, gives it to Hamas.... Pick your country that hates us or our allies. Pick a terrorist group that hates us or our allies. With a missile we can trace it back to the launch country, so there's a deterrent. A nuke in a crate is much more difficult to trace back. There are many scary senario's. It would have been easier to prevent this than deal with it.

There are many scary senario's.

Yes. There are many scary scenarios. There are endless scary scenarios, in fact. I can dream up hundreds of scary scenarios without breaking a sweat. What I cannot do is take preemptive action against all the bad guys I can dream up.

Now all you scared Americans, I want you to take a seat and brace yourself. I have bad news. You can't eliminate every bad hypothetical scenario in the world. And as soon as you (ideally) eliminate one scenario's potentiality (like we did in Iraq), you get faced with an increasing number of equally scary scenarios. (Like, say, Iran. Or North Korea. Or Pakistan. Or, heck, China. And so on and so on.) Plus, you have to deal with all the messy ramifications of your actions in eliminating a hypothetical threat. (Again, like in Iraq.)

Easy, now- breathe, that's it. I know you can deal with it. In fact, I'm betting that you'll sleep a little easier once you stop dreaming up the worst case scenario doomsday situations, and insisting that someone solve them all- by force.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I wouldn't consider North Korea a "Bad guy I dreamed up". You may want to study up on North Korea's actions over the past 50 years. Once you've done that you'll realize that it is not a dream, it's reality.

What would make me sleep better is if we gave them a few billion dollars in aid and a couple of nuclear reactors if they promise not to do anything bad again. Appeasement has such a long history of success! Now that's a dream.

But you've convinced me. The US should do nothing to anyone. That way no one will hate us. Even if they are jealous of our wealth and standard of living. Living in a good dream world is great! I'm off to email my checking and savings account numbers to that nice guy in Nigeria. I"M RICH!!

You may want to study up on North Korea's actions over the past 50 years.

Clue me in. And after you've educated me about North Korea's past, please detail for me the likely threat to the United States it presents right now.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

"Now all you scared Americans, I want you to take a seat and brace yourself. I have bad news. You can't eliminate every bad hypothetical scenario in the world. And as soon as you (ideally) eliminate one scenario's potentiality (like we did in Iraq), you get faced with an increasing number of equally scary scenarios."

It's called Vigilence, Vitus. America could do nothing about North Korea, Iraq, Iran and just go with the flow, let things unfold as they will. It's no big deal...........would you like that? Maybe we should pass the hat to Canada so they can attempt to diffuse international crisis.' I think the South Koreans and Japanese have more reason to be afraid than us "scared Americans."

I started this thread asking what would the left/democrats do in the event of a real confrontation? Why don't you get back on topic and tell us what Vitus would do? Or, tell us why Japan and South Korea have nothing to worry about because Kim Jong Il is a mere mythical bad guy who came to us in our dreams?

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Over the past 50 years, North Korea has built a million man army while allowing it's people to starve and suffer from diseases that have been irradicated in the rest of the world. It has sponsored and committed terrorist attacks including bombings of planes. It has kidnaped individuals from Japan. It has killed soldiers in the DMZ. It's basically a very bad place run by the worst people on earth.

Now here's the threat to the US. North Korea sells offensive missiles to other countries. If you have the $$ and are willing to pay, you can buy them. North Korea has developed Nuclear weapons. Now here's a link you're going to have to make. It's going to be a tough one. Based on North Korea's past actions of selling offensive missiles to other countries, (I know this is reaching) they could sell nuclear weapons to other countries. And here's a big reach. These other countries could give them to terrorists. Now I know I'm just dreaming up a horrible worst case senerio and North Korea has never actually sold anything, and Iran has never actually given aid to terrorists. So sleep well tonight!

Now I know I'm just a war mongerer and we should wait until a nuke originating from North Korea takes out a US city before we do anything. It's not like we have a history of allowing anyone to blow up two embassies and a navy ship without doing anything, and then be shocked that they escalated it to an attack on US soil.

But hey any of these things are at least 2 years away. Let's not do anything now and hope for the best! Kind of like what we did in 1994. We got a good 12 year run.

It's called Vigilence, Vitus.

I'm all for vigilance. What's going on lately more closely resembles paranoia.

America could do nothing about North Korea, Iraq, Iran and just go with the flow, let things unfold as they will. It's no big deal...........would you like that?

As opposed to, say, the mess we're in wit Iraq right now? Yep. We'd be better off.

Canada so they can attempt to diffuse international crisis.

What international crisis?

I started this thread asking what would the left/democrats do in the event of a real confrontation? Why don't you get back on topic and tell us what Vitus would do?

What Vitus would do is refrain from initiating a conflict, as so many seem so eager to do. In the event North Korea initiated a conflict, I'd take steps to end it vigorously.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

"Now I know I'm just a war mongerer and we should wait until a nuke originating from North Korea takes out a US city before we do anything."

Dude, Stop making sense. Vitus would likely be more worried about the effects on global warming from the missile exhaust at the launch site than from the detonation of the bomb in his front yard.

Either way there is hope, I think he would be ready to negotiate with NK once the nukes are inbound.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Easy, now- breathe, that's it. I know you can deal with it. In fact, I'm betting that you'll sleep a little easier once you stop dreaming up the worst case scenario doomsday situations, and insisting that someone solve them all- by force.



Are you crazy, Vitus? This is a War Without End, don't you see?

Without all these guys absolutely out there plotting to kill all of us, what would the government and the politicians and the military do?