yeah i was wondering about this too.

hiding the fact that there was a mishap is just going to lead to rumors, speculation, and misinformation.

I sure hope not. I know Dan seems to have a bit of a "my way or the highway" attitude when it comes to bike fit but I doubt if he censored this.

long-time readers of this forum, and of RST prior to it, know that if there is one thing i'm vehemently against it's trial by internet. i not only pulled your post, i very nearly banned you. as i might ban anyone who wrote the sort of thing you wrote. the claim that you were poised to buy a cervelo but will now stick with your european frames sounds to me disingenuous in the extreme.

i don't care whether you, or any reader, likes or dislikes cervelo, and if you choose to prefer european-made bikes over north american bikes that's your privilege. there are plenty of euro bikes and components i like, except for those i've PERSONALLY had fail when i was aboard. but this forum won't be used as a place to wage a guerilla campaign against ANY manufacturer or retailer. please take that elsewhere.

i will furthermore write here what i've written elsewhere on behalf of companies other than cervelo. if it were my company you were writing about i'd have already sent you a warning. i would not hesitate to clear my desk and make you my personal legal hobby if i thought my company was being unfairly targeted for unsubstantiated claims of a lack of safety. i suspect cervelo, trek, ABG, softride, etc., might not be be as militant as i would be. but all these companies, and most others, have an impeccable record of safety, and i would not allow that to be tarnished if i were any of them. i would spend whatever i needed to spend to make sure my reputation was protected. stating news is one thing. extrapolating that into a campaign that impugns the safety of an entire brand is another.

but then cervelo is not my company, so you don't have anything to worry about from me.

the short answer to your question is Yes, i do monitor this forum, and yours is the second post i've ever deleted.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan, let me say up front that I don't think that you did the right thing. It's almost Nazi like the way that you're playing judge and jury with this fellow. I'll go as far as to say that I'm quite disappointed in the way in which that you've handled this.

All he did was report that a fork broke on one of the CSC Soloist bikes and voice his concern about purchasing a Cervelo because of this. Francois then responded with a very good post pointing out that parts do break as a part of racing and should not be interpreted in any way as a reflection of Cervelo. We're all adults here and I think quite capable of making up our own minds regarding the message in the original post and Francois' response.

I'm sure that I am not likely the only one on this forum who disagrees with your response to this issue, but it's your website so you can do what ever you want. I just hope that you're not going to now ban me or anyone else who happens to not agree with you.

"I just hope that you're not going to now ban me or anyone else who happens to not agree with you."

you disagree with me pretty much every step along the way, and i not only don't mind it, i welcome it. were you to write things that directly, and unfairly, threaten my income or the income of others who are trying to eke a living by providing a service to those in this sport, then yes i'll react.

i doubt the great dane thought very much about that when he wrote what he wrote, but i don't require malice in order to pull a post. thoughtlessness works for me just as well.

so that everyone knows where i stand on this:

1. be malicious toward me all you want.
2. disagree with me all you want.
3. post your views all you want.
4. be as thoughtful or thoughtless as you feel led to be.
5. fairly and accurately state whatever you feel is newsworthy.
6. do NOT write things that may have a substantial negative financial impact on a tri-related company unless you've really thought through what it will mean for that company. unless you craft your post carefully, i will pull it.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

First of all, I did not see the original post people are referring to, so what I say here may not completely address the issues brought up, but I'll give it a try. I just read the link provided above from the CSC website, I hadn't seen it there before either but of course I was aware of the mishap since I talk to the team on a daily basis.

The Wolf fork construction is a combination of standard parts and new features. The standard parts are the top half, the steerer is the exact same steerer you will find in approximately half of the carbon steerer forks made in the entire world. The bootom half incorporates our specific shapes and dropout design, but the production techniques are also proven and common.

The forks have passed the highest test standards that are in use for road forks, both in static, fatigue and impact testing.

From the initial feedback from the team it seems the steerer of the fork broke near the top, which is very strange for two reasons. First of all because the fork passed all tests, and second of all because the same steerer passed various tests as part of other forks.

We haven't made a final determination yet of what the exact cause was, but it would seem that it is related to the clamping of the stem and possibly an incorrrectly assembled shim. But I won't know that for certain until the fork and stem arrive here for further analysis.

All I can say is this, and aside from slowman few on this forum can probably understand what I'm trying to say: I have to go to sleep each night knowing that thousands of people ride a Cervelo every day. Because we are a small company, Phil and I feel very connected to our customers, and we realized early on that the only way we would be able to fall asleep is if we did everything in our power to make sure our products are sound. That's why the Wolf fork passed all those tests, more tests than most forks pass. And that is why we reject products even when the vendor says their level of quality was "no problem" for brand X or Y.

Our warranty record shows it works, and if I had a webcam in my bedroom (which I don't!!) you would see more proof that it works. And I can also tell you that in the past three months I have learned an unbelievable amount about the testing that a lot of other companies do, just because we wanted to see where we stand. All I can say is that with a lot of them (not all), I would have a lot of trouble falling asleep at night if I worked for them.

So, let the debate begin. I have no problem discussing our warranty record, our specific designs, or even getting into a scrap with people trying to misrepresent our record (not saying that has happened, just saying I can handle that too).

---

Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

I don't think the orginal post was out of line. It was more of raising the issue of a broken fork and an inauspicious start for the CSC-Cervelo relationship. Personally, I can't even recall Cervelo being attacked or the comment about not buying a cervelo anymore - I don't think those were the key points being made.

That the original poster was interested on Gerard's take on what happened was pretty much what I took away from the post. I can't see how it'd be characterized as a "guerilla campaign" against anybody.

Instead of deleting the original post, a response stating that Gerard and Cervelo take an *incredible* amount of pride in their designs and workmanship (as everyone who has been on this board a while knows) and are more than likely working to ascertain exactly what happened.

It's not a disaster. Things sometimes break as Francois's deleted post explained. But an open discussion on what happened and eventually getting Gerard's response would assuade people's fears a lot more than deleting a post.

Thanks for the info Gerard. You must've posted as I was writing my earlier response.

this is a time when i will be happy mr empfield is as stubborn and independant as they say he is. :) anything which opens the door to running down a specific company on false pretenses should be whacked immediately in a civil forum. the pretenses were false in the sense that , as gerard says, this is a carbon steerer issue and not a cervelo issue. for the poster to allude to euro frames as being more desireable than a cervelo because of an oriental made industy standard steerer is ironic as well, as no euro bike company makes such a steerer and likely use the same one as gerard does. if you cannot grasp these points but instead want to call out a specific company as being negligent you are a boor and deserve to be yanked.

it is a simple rule. come in and say carbon steerers are a risky scheme if you like, or that threadless headsets are a marketing ploy from the devil himself. just don't bag on one specific company unless you have something of substance to say. that is only civil.

Gerard, I raced sports and formula cars for several years and then go-carts after that. I can tell you from personal experience that parts break under racing stresses. It's a fact that in racing sh*t happens. Pure and simple. This applies to bicycles as much as it does to Formula One cars. It's not a reflection of your company that a fork broke. Stuff like this happens all the time in racing.

I only wish that you had seen the original post and the response from Francois before Dan took it upon himself to play censor for all of us. It really wasn't that big a deal and Cervelo wouldn't have lost any sales over it.

Parts fail. No big deal. The guy's ok. Cervelo bikes are great. I have a lot of faith in Gerard based upon his many posts in this forum.

Dan over-reacted. But, it's his site. He's probably over worked trying to help make us better triathletes. :) (Most of us need full-time help!) I don't disagree with very much Dan has posted on this web site and I'm not ready to slam him for making what may have been a hasty judgment. Please give the guy a little slack. I am amused, though, that the guy who spent a month trashing Cervelo took a LONG time to get banned, but the Dane earned instant ejection! :) Must have been the blond hair and blue eyes. :),

Frankly, I think the Dane over-reacted as well. But, tempered, well-reasoned debate is hardly exciting. I don't buy Vittoria tires for similar reasons, but I gave them about 20 chances at $35 per. :) FWIW, I've had two forks break and both breaks were caused by my stupidity...probably.

-Robert

---

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

"you disagree with me pretty much every step along the way"

Well I certainly do on this Dan, the way that you're playing dictator and turning the forum into a "totalitarian state". Also I don't think the original post would have any negative financial consequences to Cervelo. At least I haven't put mine up on ebay yet because of it.

I really feel that you should put the original post back up and let the readers decide. As I mentioned in my earlier post, we're all adults here. So maybe you should start treating us as such.

I thought yanking the post was a little abrupt as well. I read the original, along with Francois's reply, and didn't see much in there that was offensive. I remember a discussion a while back about a bike company that had sent out several frames to stores that were noticeably crooked and therefore received bad reviews from posters on this site. I would think that thread would have been more damaging to that particular company than Dane's post could have been to Cervelo, and it was not yanked. I also thought that the Orang's comments were much more malicious toward Cervelo than any other comments I've read on this forum. And I thought that Gerard handled those in the right way, and that really made an impression about his (and his company's) integrity to many on this forum.

That being said, the Slowman provides us all with a valuable service, and he has done something most us have never done: owned a bike company. And maybe he saw something in that post that as a former company owner we did not. I thought the post was benign, but I also trust Dan's judgment.

Out of idle curiosity, what was the other post that was deleted? Was it that guy who jumped on the old forum and insulted John Cobb personally and viciously, only to have his post quickly disappear as quickly as it appeared?

RP

Let see if I can remember a few high profile parts failures.

Credit Agricole TT bikes were snapping forks (made by Look) caused a few CA riders to crash.

Erik Zabel in a Tour stage sprint, his pedals let go (broken cleat, Campy) and he squared himself. (ouch)

Bjarne Riis with his $10,000 frisbee (le Tour 1997, Pinarello)

All of those incidents were discussed in newsgroups everywhere, and were on international television. None of those manufacturers seem to be any worse for wear. Well, the new Pinarello's are quite grotesque, but that's just personal opinion.

It is not slander (libel?) to report that something broke when it can be easily verified. It is also not a crime to ask why it broke, I am quite interested in the analysis of why the steerer tube failed. If it was due to improper installation, lets hear about that so that the rest of us don't make the same mistake. If it was a mfg defect, most of us accept that is something that does happen from time to time, and have faith that the QC process will catch these. If the product is underbuilt, then Gerard will undoubtedly assure us that the flaw has been fixed.

My 2 cents worth, continue as you were.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

"I really feel that you should put the original post back up and let the readers decide. As I mentioned in my earlier post, we're all adults here. So maybe you should start treating us as such."

i don't know how to unremove a post from this forum. i think when it's gone it's gone. if great dane would like to put the post back up, i'll leave it. or you can put it up for him if you'd like. and i promise to do my best to treat you like a grown-up.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"and i promise to do my best to treat you like a grown-up."

You gotta start acting like one first!

Ok Dan, let's call a truce. I've think that my point was made and it seems that most of the responses so far are mostly in agreement. So let's just drop it.

I do hope Great Dane does repost the original. I saw no great offense in that post but we'll have to see how others feel.

PS None of this was personal. Please don't take it as such. You've great a great forum here, write great articles and your accomplishments in the bike/tri business are very admirerable. Keep up the good work.(but just don't censor so quickly!)

Hi Dan. Ok, maybe your reaction was a big quick. However, we all know that sometimes we react a bit too fast on things if we are stressed, tired etc...(like bike parts in racing :-))

I think Dane's post was legitimate, until the mention of buying euro. Indeed, I have seen tons of euros stuff breaking, even very very thoroughly tested parts. sh.t happens.

Not sure what dane was about to answer after my post, but I guess most readers here are sensible enough to realize that the accident, although incidental is purely coincidential and punctual. To be honest, I think people would worry more because you remove/delete a post in such a situation instead of explaining bike design and testing.

However, I am glad we have this thread, as it was the opportunity for all of us to remember the Riis incident in the tour 1997, that was so wonderfully recalled by Jasonk
"$10,000 freesbee"...loved that! thanks Jays.

   Dan, I read the original post, and have now read through this thread. The only thing I would add (or subtract) from the thought train, is that I wish you would let the forum at large attempt to reign in such errant judgements. I, also, was moved to react strongly against the original post in defense of *a* bike company (not necessarily just Cervelo) for having a part fail. I think the majority of the follow up posts to the original post would have strongly urged him to reconsider such a hasty judgement. Maybe the exclamation point in the subject line got your blood boiling. It did mine. But I'd rather correct or guide with discourse than simply using Draconian measures like pulling the thread.

I could be wrong about how the thread would have gone. If that were the case and it did denigrate into bashing Cervelo, then I would agree with pulling the thread and probably post a notice to all forum users regarding such activity. But at least give us a chance to educate each other, though. That's the beauty of a forum. Thanks for your consideration, Dan.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought that this was not a public forum (like a street corner) rather, I thought that this site was hosted on Dan's computers paid for by Dan's money. If he wants to remove a post from his own computer made available with his own money, what do any of us have to say about it?

I never saw the original post so I can't comment on it directly. However, there are two reasons to be suspicious given what I know from reading the threads above. The name Great Dane is not one I have seen in the year I have been on this forum and his first post (that I have noticed) is questioning a company. Second, it seems that he tried to cast aspersions on an entire company due to one problem and make suggestions about going elsewhere. Isn't this how orang started? Hopefully the Dane is trying to start a good discussion thread and things just got off on the wrong foot.

We all know that there are plenty of other forums out there. Most of us are here because the signal/noise ratio is so much better here.

"Out of idle curiosity, what was the other post that was deleted?"

i thought maybe i yanked one of orang's posts. i did yank him, perhaps i didn't yank any of his posts. to the degree i didn't yank his posts it was because he was mostly just an asshole, and that doesn't qualify one for getting a post yanked. great dane wasn't an asshole at all. i just saw, from a manufacturer's point of view, a needlessly damaging thread getting going and i thought it best to nip it in the bud.

not until i've got my hand deep inside YOUR pocket, pulling out a significant part of YOUR income just so i can get my free speech jollies at your expense, will you know what it's like to be on my end. when it WAS my ass on the line, i reacted much the way that gerard did--much more graciously. he pretty much had to, as i had to. reacting angrily would only inflame the problem.

but since i don't own a bike company any longer, i can react however i honestly feel is appropriate. of course i might piss off readers, and i really do care what my readers think. but this is a mat issue for me. i'll die taking this hill. i might overreact occasionally on this issue, but there will be no trial by internet on this site.

i hope readers will keep this in mind, since orang came up. he was likewise strident in his view of cervelo. i let all those posts stay up. you can say cervelo is run by idiots or assholes or that you think they're painted bad colors or that the geometry is suspect. you can say they're sell-outs or cop-outs or greedy or stupid. just don't say, or allude, or hint, that their bikes are unsafe, unless you've got the sort of evidence that will win in a court of law, which is where you might very likely end up with public comments like that. i write this as much for your own protection as for the rules of posting on this forum.

for the record, that's a total of one post and one poster who've bitten the dust so far, out of about 50,000 posts on our forum during the last year. with that as my delete record i personally don't see how i'm yet almost-a-nazi, but perhaps i have a blind spot :-)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Gotta go with Dan on this one, repeating any form of media is a rumor in itself....and for what it's worth to anyone. I've owned a cervelo prodigy and raced in over 50 criteriums in the past two years, riding it like I stole it, on some courses that dare sub compacts. Descents at over 55mph in road races, all while being 6'1 220 and have to race velocity rims, because I'm not rich and can look at a carbon rim and make it crack. I was next to guy once that snapped a fork, it slips my mind what brand he rode. hmm.....

OK, so far cerveloguy has compared Dan to a Nazi, accused him of playing a dictator and of turning this forum into a "totalitarian state". I think these allegations are a trifle over the top for the deletion of one post.
I would like to commend Dan for his tolerance of rude behavior. If someone came into my "house", my forum, tossing these allegations at me, I'd send him packing.

I am a faithful reader of this forum and the GreatDane is new to me. Because Dan has more insight availabe to him, could he possibly be seeing one of our former flamers(intelligent, as we all know)trying to reincarnate himself in the cloak of the "GreatDane"? Interesting question isn't it?

Bob Sigerson

I read through the entire thread. Dan acted responsibly and I'll tell you why: There is a unique "culture" here on this forum. There are written and unwritten rules for conduct, and we hold each other to these rules and standards. You police me, I police you, Dan started it and owns it so he polices it all. The maintenance of these self-imposed standards is what makes the forum both valuable and functional. Once it descends into an "un-administered" free for all the value of information and safety and credibility of posting is compromised. It is no longer "as good". People can come onto this forum, read, learn and interact. It is very important and has a high degree of integrity. When I started posting obsessively here people told me "Be careful, you can really get burned on those forums- they can be a double edged sword..." I was and have been cuatious. Believe me, I am only human, there are any number of customers from over the years who could post things like "Tom Demerly is an asshole and Bikesport sucks". They could fabricate or exagerate reasons to support that. It would cost me credibility and business. I don't want that to happen when its unfair. I have made errors in facts and information on my own website and here in the forum. They were factual errors. You, the posters, have held me accountable to it and I have corrected it (Thomson stem- Reynolds fork issue, only 10 guys who can fit bikes, etc.). In each case you were right and I publicly acknowledged that on this forum. Sometimes we have differences of opinions: Goood- constructive debate. Sometimes it changes my opinion, most times not. so Dan is protacting something and we all should. We have a good little thing going here- especially me- as velo123 pointed out in a previous thread I post A LOT here, and it is good for business, but I do try to return something. And, you guys have been kind and friendly even about personal matters like girlfriends and so forth. So, Yeah, Dan acted swiftly and with resolve. In this case, I support that and it makes me feel safer about posting here. We need to preserve this. It is rare and civilized in an internet community of craziness and irresponsibility. We got a good thing going here. Let's keep it.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Could there be any relationship between a large dog and a large ape?

Bob Sigerson

<Please give the guy a little slack. I am amused, though, that the guy who spent a month trashing Cervelo took a LONG time to get banned, but the Dane earned instant ejection! :) Must have been the blond hair and blue eyes. :), >



At first, the grammer and spelling made me suspicous, and then a friends special equipment and knowledge of the wonderful world of internet tracing confirmed my suspicion. GreatDane is indeed OrangUtan (i won't reveal what switchboard revealed about our friend, that indeed would not be very legal). I guess i have to start posting as GreatDane??? now.

Classic

whack the monkey x 2

---

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"on your Left"

Uh, well, NOT!

The only basis for justifying what Dan did is this is his forum. With a little overworked reaction thrown in, perhaps. The Dane gave no misleading information. His conclusion was utterly without merit, and as more than one poster has noted, he would have quickly been brought to task.

IF the Dane had said something a little stronger, like: "All Cervelo forks are trash because one broke," then Dan could have kissed him goodbye without a trace of misapprehension from me. But, I would have left the guy on board anyway and let the other guys trash him! Sheezh! We have plenty of folks who know what they are talking about when it comes to bike technology (Including you!)

Orang was another story. He should have been colored gone after about the 2nd or 3rd post. He was just throwing trash around. Being stupid is one thing, being venal is an entirely different animal. Orang was being nasty. The Dane simply lept to the wrong conclusion. I do not think there was any "sub-text" to the Dane's comment.

Having said all that I'm not upset in the least. This is an ongoing enterprise and growth will occur. And, we shouldn't expect perfection. Dan's just another human doing the best he can and doing it a hell of a lot better than anyone else out there.

Just my .0002 Euro.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

thats what Ben in Fla post confirms from an IP trace

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-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"on your Left"

If he has a static IP that's possible. Without a static IP you'd have to rely on an email addy or resort to supposition. What IP info did you give your friend, Ben?

But, I wouln't be surprised. Orang was no monkey (technically true), but a snake.

-Robert

---

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

"you disagree with me pretty much every step along the way"

Well I certainly do on this Dan, the way that you're playing dictator and turning the forum into a "totalitarian state".

Cerveloguy,

You have a lot of good posts; but, IMHO you were out of line on the above. I vote for Dan on this on. And, if this is really is Utan back as another character you'll have to admit that Dan's insight (as opposed to incite) is quite uncanny.

Best wishes to all.

---

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Have to add to this..whoever the guy is, he only posted a story from team website. to pull it so quickly, and especially after Francois' reasoned reply was pretty outrageous IMO. I bought a Cervelo mainly/solely because of the good write ups on here. Would hate to think only positive posts were allowed. How come posts deriding PCs were never pulled, even though they were much less fact based than this one.

Dan, it's your forum, but personally I've gone from being a Cervelo owner who knows that shit happens and wouldn't blame the company for this incident to one who's pretty pissed off that he's not allowed to make his own judgements - and that turnaround was not down to Cervelo. Appreciate you were acting as you saw fit, but have to say I was pretty disappointed. Anyway, split milk etc. :peace:

I don't see anything wrong with pulling inflamatory posts, preventing "trial by internet" or whatever else but Gerard should be careful about using his relationship with Dan and his status as a frequent and (deservedly) respected poster to take unsubstantiated jabs at his competitors.

"I have learned an unbelievable amount about the testing that a lot of other companies do, just because we wanted to see where we stand. All I can say is that with a lot of them (not all), I would have a lot of trouble falling asleep at night if I worked for them."


The fact that Gerard does not specifically name names is cold comfort. We saw a situation yesterday or the day before where someone made a comment that an "unnamed" former Ironman champion won using performance enhancing drugs. It took about five minutes for another poster to deduce who he was pointing at and the original poster was left having slandered someone he later backpedaled and claimed he thought was clean (not quite sure how that works but whatever).

There are two ways for a business to market itself: fight for a bigger share of the existing pie or help the pie grow. The editorial philosophy of this site seems to be the latter: what's good for the sport as a whole is good for each of the businesses (and businessmen) who make their living serving that sport. I think that is an admirable philosophy and I think its a large part of the basis for Dan's dislike of "trial by internet."

I don't know what Gerard's personal philosophy on the point is but his post and some of the banner ads he's run on the page suggest that he subscribes to the former school of thought; that he thinks that his company's growth is a result of market share it has wrestled away from other manufacturers. I don't think that's true at all; I think Cervelo has grown in large part by building a world-beater entry-level bike that it can sell to the legions of new triathletes entering the sport every year, but the attitude, or even the perception that a big player in the bike market has that attitude, is not a good thing for anyone.

---

________________________________________________

Anyone who tells you they're as fast now as they were when they were 18...
sure wasn't very fast when they were 18.

DANG!...so what I'm seeing is that I've seen the Dan E. of "old" raising his mighty gavel once again? Crap...and here I just thought he was getting polite and politically correct in his "milder" years ;-)

...even though it took some of us a few years to "acquire" the taste, some of us also appreciate the days of old i.e. like at a CABDA bike show in Chicago..what?...5 years ago?...when Dan was giving his seminar on QR/tri-bikes in general and was all over some of these roadie punks who attempted to come in and discount/bash his theories without any data, or logical theory (and then attempt to educate HIM on the ways of all things regarding bikes).

Yeah, you may have jumped the gun on this one slowman...but good to see the king still controls his castle (by setting forth the rules which all must abide).

...now...isn't there some bonehead thing going on elsewhere like with the WTC, USAT, ITU, etc. that you can expound upon now that you're in the mood? ;-)

---

Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.

At first I thought Dan was out of line in removing the thread. Protecting Cervelo from a discussion of broken fork would seem to me worse than having Gerard and others on the board respond.

But Dan did nothing to stop this discussion. If he wanted to hide the issue, this thread would not exist. And this is the most widely read thread since I've been reading this forum.

Gerard and others have responded. Everyone knows that a CSC fork broke in a race.

And everyone knows that DISINGENUOS attacks on companies will not be tolerated.

Dan smelled a rat and he pointed it out to show everyone what a rat looks like. He didn't bury the rat.

Criticism of companies and products is allowed. People write all the time that they would never buy PowerCranks or Computrainers. Malicious comments are not.

GreatDane logged on and created a new account in the middle of the night. I don't know if Dan thought it was Orang, but as others have said and as his spelling indicates, it probably is. But Dan saw that the intent was not to ask a legimate question, but to spread dirt.

Deciding what is a fair comment and what isn't is a tough call. But maintaining a standard of fair discussion is important. As this thread shows, fair discussion is also a topic for debate.

It is too easy to spread malicious and unaccountable information on the internet so I welcome a forum with intelligient moderation. In this regard fewer anonymous posters also holds people to be more accountable and responsible for what they say.

   Well, one thing is for certain here. We all (except maybe GreatDane) agree that one broken fork does not constitute ANYTHING of consequence, especially in this instance. If indeed this was Orang reincarnated, well, my hat's off to Dan even if I still disagree w/his method.

What do you expect from "cerveloguy". He is a self proclaimed flaming liberal (I read this on another thread). It is standard procedure among that set to call anyone who disagrees with them a "nazi" in lue of a logical arguement.

Slick, I agree. If I were running this thing the first person to get zapped would the one who called me a "nazi." I think Dan shows great restraint.

Bob Sigerson

Sig and Slick, let me ask you both something - Did either of you even see the original post? If not, then I rest my case.

Cerveloguy implies that by removing the post that ST has become a Totalitarian state influenced in part by Germany of the 20's to 40's.

Meanwhile at the other end of the spectrum apparently all "flaming liberals" fall in to the set of calling people "Nazi's" when they encounter someone that disagree's with them.......

Seems to me that neither of those two points of view are that far removed from each other, both gross generalizations and both completely missed the point that when in Rome you do as.............I'll let you guess.

Dans site, Dans money, Dans time, if Dan dont like it Dan I think is probably well within his rights as owner, facilitator and creator to remove it............

you know this has really been a disappointing day here on this forum. First we have one regular poster accusing Dan of "Nazi" like tactics, then we have another thread where we have people accusing others of being or not being liberals, bragging about how much they make and the size house they live in. What gives?

My own opinion if anyone cares, this is Dan's sandbox and he can make the rules, any rules that he cares too and enforce them anyway he so pleases. If we don't like the sandbox rules, we are free to go find another sandbox, or make our own. I can't go into my doctors office and put up posters that they may not like or agree with, he/she'll have them taken down, it is their right, even though this is still a free country.

I used to participate a lot in another forum (duathlon.com) but that forum went downhill because there wasn't enough moderation. On that forum, just about every subject turns into a name calling exercise. I now very rarely post there. I sure hope this forum doesn't turn that way. I doubt that it will but today is a step in that direction.

---

Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

For my last $.02 on this particular thread all I can say is that if Orangutan and Great Dane are the same troll as Ben in FL claims, then the guy is a genuis to be able to cause this much discord with just one post. A dubious one, but one just the same.

...this thread is disappointing indeed... but, sometimes it takes a good disagreement to understand the value what new groups are all about. This is Dan's domain... it is both a burden and a blessing.

Proper conduct of public opinion is expected to be based upon private advantage. Whether the original post was correct and informative or simply troll bait is defined by owner of the sight. Whether I like it or not... However, I believe it is also acceptable behavior to show my distaste for such censorship. But, that is where my influence would stop. I believe that Dan understands that and would expect no less from his posters. Unfortunately, perhaps his decision wasn't his best or perhaps it was also justified. I'm not going to judge.

However, if I have to pick a side... I would fall firmly in the middle. Neither side should be considered completely wrong or right. But I think it would be a safe assumption to say that only the supressed words are considered dangerous. On the other hand, the surest way of eliminating censurship is to correct ourselves. Judgement is a by-product which is made based upon the information Dan had a the time. If he saw justice in removing the post - so be it. If those feel cheated by such removal - so be it. It's fair to give both sides the benefit of the doubt. Fortunately (or Unfortunately), Dan defines who receives the benefit of the doubt. ...Now, that kind of responsability must really suck sometimes - NO envy here.

FWIW Joe Moya

Joe Moya

Exactly. People are anouncing they are liberals, others are Nazi's, they live in big houses and make lots of money...etc. I come here to learn more about triathlon from guys like Mike P, Dan, Francois, Gerard, Gordo ...etc, not to hear someone's personal political beliefs. Take that somewhere else , please. I don't annoy you with my politics.

Well stated. Andrewmc and Mike Plumb, I believe have made absolutely accurate assessments as well. This forum is the class of the field. It says a lot about the aggregate passion, intelligence, and experience of the regular posting entities, and Slowman as well.

But this is a forum. You shouldn't begin a thread or post a reply ON THE FORUM if you are ill equipped to deal with feedback. One particular Slowtwitcher has contributed a tremendous amount of excellent information, in my opinion, to date. However, his reaction to any opinion contrary to his own, or any questioning of his commentary, is to retort like a petulant child. If you can't deal with a forum's dynamic, don't post on the forum.

This is Dan's sandbox and he has let us in. Don't shit in his sandbox.

No, I did not, and, maybe it's just me, but I don't believe I know of any more vile name to call a person or their actions than "nazi."

Bob Sigerson

what's the law's name that says there is a tacite argument that each time someone mentions 'nazi", or anything related to that, the thread stops and we move along.

let's move on to something more fun. Stuff breaks sometimes.
That's Dans' forum and he can do as he sees fit. In my home I can say "you can not use words with the letter p" If I see fit.