It would be interesting to see an independent disc wheel shootout with all these top disc wheels instead of relying on the marketing data of each company. Many factors to consider no doubt when saying which one is fastest. I know the Autobahn from Lightweight always interested me but the prices are ridiculous. The ultra rare Dash that is no longer in production but would be a great contender amongst the "greats" like Zipp or SS, or some other little known brands, sure seems like an article worth reading.

Personally, I like the sound the Zipp makes. Pricey as well, but that sound...very cool "Whom whom whom..."

Lightweight and Dash are/were waaaaaay too narrow for modern tires.

Zipp was probably only 1st in marketing spend and less so in speed. Has it ever tested faster than a HED Jet?

Known quantities (fast) on a budget: HED and Flo

Known quantities on a bigger budget: Aerocoach, Princeton

Other's I'd consider: Revolver, Citec, Roval, DT Swiss, Lightbicycle, Prime, and Premier

How big are the differences anyway, except for fitting (or not fitting) wider tyres? And weight, which won't be that relevant on a flat course without a ton of switchbacks...

---

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

I initially see you point, many discs look very similar nowadays, except maybe Cadex, Flo, Vision, HED, Black Inc - still all have that "bulge" like the Zipp Sub-9 had. I would love HED, if only they would make a true carbon walled disc.

I see many (Euro?) top pros using DT Swiss and Swiss Side.

Paying mega bucks for a Zipp or DT Swiss disc these days is a joke, particularly when there are so many alternatives at a fraction of the price that would be as fast if not faster.

DT Swiss and Swissside wheels are quite popular in Europe in general (Austria, Germany and Switzerland especially). And then, when people want a matching rear disc wheel, they turn their heads towards those brands. Zipp is still very popular, but then e.g. HED is barely noticeable anywhere.

As for the pros, they generally ride what they’re being offered, not what the fastest would test (maybe with only a few exceptions). There’s a reason why Sanders has HED sponsorship and e.g. Lange has Swissside sponsorship.

Also… if the difference between a deep rear and a disc rear is only about 2W, then the difference between disc rear A and disc rear B is around negligible…

Pros ride based on sponsors, not what's best, so I'd ignore that as part of your reasoning.

The Zipp bulge is there because it adds stiffness compared to a completely flat disc. Making it in a straight line like Zipp does is the easiest way to do it. For these two reasons you see many others with the same design (they're not copying Zipp). The more complex shapes like Princeton, Aerocoach, etc seem to test a bit faster.

HED makes a true carbon disc. The Jet line is aluminum rim and carbon walled. The Vanquish line is full carbon and I believe also wider.

I'm old. I bought a set of 808 rims and had them build on DT hubs when the rims (and 808 wheels, too) were only available as tubulars. JonnyO (former pro and a coach) did a test showing that an aerojacket cover on the 808s was faster than the 900 flat disc. I bought the aerojacket and didn't look back. The weight penalty was about 150gms or about 1.3 seconds in a flat 40k at 25mph. I continued to use a cover when I moved on to different wheels.

With all the advances in aero wheels, it wouldn't surprise me to learn the differences are minuscule and the fastest disc wheel may not be the fastest on your bike. Think Hed tri-spoke in a narrow fork. For value, I'd buy a set of the Swiss side 80s and a cover. If money doesn't matter, buy what you want or what looks best on your bike.

The best approximation is looking at what pro cycling teams use when they go off sponsor brand and either run blacked out or rebadged discs (Ineos and Jumbo have been the primary ones doing this in the past, but other teams have been rebadging other disc wheels).

The common choices for non-sponsor appropriate discs were Princeton Carbonworks, Aerocoach, and Roval 321.

Personally, I have a Roval 321 rim and absolutely love it. It's insanely light (1015g, lighter than some deep section rear wheels) and has a nice balance of stiffness and ride quality with a wide rim. Only downside is that the brake track kinda sucks especially when it gets hot (braking after a couple turns on a mountain descent led to a fair amount of brake fade and shake), but that's not an issue with disc brakes (and is a price to pay for a 1000g structural carbon disc wheel). I had a hed jet with an aluminum brake track previously, and while the braking was better, the wheel felt much heavier and more cumbersome compared to the roval, and the ride quality wasn't better even with the spokes.

Disc wheels are very hard to compare for average people like myself. I have Zipp disc and love it, but I got nothing to compare with, so I ride with what I have. I wish I have access to 2-3 other disc wheels, put them on my bike and ride, so I can compare.

We're talking about the toroidal bulge on the Sub-9, not the "lenticular" bulge on some other discs? I believe toroidal shape was intended for aerodynamics - toroidal design was the hot aero shape of that era. The Sub-9 shape borrowed from the 808 rim shape of the time - it's like an 808 filled in to the hub with a flat section. Also the Sub-9 was anecdotally a flexy disc, so if stiffness was indeed the intent, it may not have worked out. I never see track riders use it - always the 900 or the Super-9.

Now toroidal design seems to have mostly gone away, with the "Firecrest" shape predominant. Though plenty of variations out there.

If anyone wants to do a wind tunnel comparison - I'd be happy to send our disc wheel. :-)

No one's wheel will be faster +/- "margin of error" in the tunnel.

I remember when the bike companies participated in an unbiased test (including our frame) a few years ago - they all wished they had not. Kind of cut through all the marketing!!

---

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

Yes, the point of the bulge is to improve aerodynamics of the trailing edge of the wheel. The tire is round and not great aerodynamically, so having a concave cross section leading into it helps reduce separation at the rear. The leading edge of the rear dics is actually of little concern as it is well sheltered by the frame.

The ideal rear disc wheel shape is lenticular, as in the Mavic Comete track version. This is impractical for a road bike drive side as the cassette needs to mounted far inboards, so the bulge at the rim was designed as a next-best solution.

It was interesting that the bulged Zipp and Hed discs came out after they tested a Zipp 808/Hed 9 with a cover and found it to be faster.

Lets assume this is correct (not saying that it is not), but it would be fun to see that article describing that and further: Why are they not ALL (Zipp, DT Swiss, etc etc) making the bulge on the discs today?

Be serious, you are trying to tell me your 1290 gram disk wheel is going to have the same performance as my 800 gram Corima disk? In the wind tunnel maybe, on the road way different, and happy to wager before the testing begins which is faster.

---

Marc Sasso

How is it "way different" ?

Get out your fist year physics book and calculate how much faster a 800 gram weight will get to the top of a 1km/10% hill when compared to a 1290 gram weight when the same amount of force is applied to booth.

---

Marc Sasso

Ok, let me turn to page 113.

On flat at 40km/h you it will cost .490 * 9.81 * .004 * 11.11 = .21 watts. in rolling resistance.....yawn

On a 4% incline, at say 30km/h, 1km = .490 * 9.81 * 40m = 192joules / 120s = 1.6 watts.....yawn....you get some of that on the way down, btw

I guess you were doing the TT on the Planche des belles filles.

Carry on

Details on this 800g Corima disc wheel? Which tire are you running? Only wheels I'm aware of that light are the Lightweight ones and those have a 20mm external width and are limited to tubular which makes them a non-starter.

---

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

500g (1 lb) out of 165 lbs (150 lb rider + 15 lb bike)? At best, <1% faster. That's being exceedingly generous and rounding up from 0.6%.

First year physics point of order: force is the wrong property to be holding constant. You mean power.

edit: corrected for spelling.

It's always a mistake on ST to instruct other people to get out their physics book.

Yes and the difference in our disc at $850 running a 25 or 28 mm tire ccr vs the other disc at $2,500 running a 22 mm tire ccr should more than make up the difference 😊

I’m willing to take on the road ride challenge as well.

---

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

Some of us would spend more time trying to decide which one to pull off the shelf.

---

Marc Sasso

That is indeed very light. How wide is it and what tire are you able to run?

---

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

Are we testing tires or comparing wheels?

---

Marc Sasso

Doesn't matter. 500g saves you 3 seconds at 200 watts on a 10% 1km climb. Hardly "way" faster for a 390second climb. The difference is less at higher power.

"In the wind tunnel maybe, on the road way different, and happy to wager before the testing begins which is faster." - you 20 minutes ago.

Make up your mind. I'm good either way :-)

---

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

The wheel directly affects the tire choice. As mentioned previously it will affect tubular vs tubeless vs clincher and thus the type of tube (if necessary) then what size tires can be run. That has shown over the past few years to have similar or more affect on speed in the real world.

---

My Strava | My Instagram | Summerville, SC | 35-39 AG | 4:41 (70.3), 10:05 (140.6) | 3x70.3, 1x140.6 | Cat 2 Cyclist

Hey - I'm just messing with you :-). You have a great disc and it is a good choice.

There are a lot of good choices out now.

---

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

This is BS - the Corima tubi is just over a 1000g and the clincher runs 1200+g. Even the track front disk is 900+ grams…what exactly are you showing us here, the track wheel with the hub busted out?

The fastest wheel can be very slow with the wrong tire / tube choice.

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Unfortunately not and I was misled by the tech data on their Vanquish Pro RC disc which states spokes: n/a.

Their disc is essentially an RC6 with a carbon cover, not a structural carbon wheel.

I thought you were referring to the rim. There's nothing wrong with spokes in a disc wheel. Why does it matter to you?

Just my 2c on this: I like my disc wheel like I like my (Mexican) wife: LOUD :) The HED discs are dead silent

Because it was advertised as not having spokes yet it does. If you ordered a structural disc and received a spoke and cover disc it wouldn’t matter to you?

No I don't, because filling and spokes are two ways of achieving the same thing. In a disc wheel I care about price, width, aero, and weight, roughly in that order. What's inside doesn't matter to me just as it doesn't matter what kind of filling they use if it's solid or anything else that isn't visible/measurable.

I'll agree showing NA for spokes is misleading, though. That's not cool even if there's no functional difference.

Entirely true IMHO. On that note, the world is shifting rapidly towards wider tires. Zipp, Enve etc are all running 28s on their new wheels but every disk I can see on the market still has a super narrow rim eg. Zipp Super 9 disk brake is only 18mm!

Does anyone make a disk with internal of >20mm? I'd love to have something I can fit a wider tire to (disk brake compatible)

I dont know what the internal sizing is of the HED Vanquish Disc, but they mark 28 mm width to be optimal, check this:

https://www.lightbicycle.com/WUFO-C21-Full-Carbon-Disc-Wheel-Clincher-Rear-Disc-Brake.html


This meets your specs, but I've heard some people having issues with LB discs and needing to return them. It's a good company though, I have a wheelset of theirs on my road bike.

jet disc and V disc, 21 internal.

---

Andy Tetmeyer (I work at HED)

You made me splash out my gulp of Coke all over my iPad Pro :-) LOL

Jeroen

---

Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands

And the funny part is the Corima road (not track), clincher (not tubular) weighs the same thing as the Premier at 50% more.

I get +1.86 watts up a 4% grade (~360 watts 75 to 75.5 kg 30 kph)

At the same speed i get 4.2 watts up a 10% grade but that's the difference between 728.2 and 724 watts

At 16 kph (~360 watts 75 kg .24) i get 2.3 watts difference (75 to 75.5 kg)

I just received my Light Bicycle disc wheel, having had some reservations based on a couple mentions in the forum.

Aside from some slight cosmetic fiber layup distortions under the clear paint, the wheel is impressively fabricated.

More true than my other top name brand disc wheel.

All still in the 1/2 to 3/4% range, or 2-3 seconds in a 5+ minute climb.

[not intending to disagreeing with you. Just pointing out the relative significance, compared with Mr. Sasso's claim of "way". Where'd he go anyway?]

Yes I understand.

The calculator I created can show difference in watts and it's tedious to find the differences in velocity and time.

I agree, it's not much at all.

I have the Ron Aeron X and I like it so far. It's lightweight (1190 grams), relatively inexpensive, internal rim width is ok (18mm internal 27.5 external, 25mm tire recommended but 28mm can be used, currently using Schwalbe Pro One TT 25), it’s stiff, and sounds just as good as high end discs. I was deciding between this one and Hunt wheels disc wheel but they weren’t in stock. This did take several weeks to be delivered, from Poland. Matt Hansen is sponsored by them, of course he’ll use what he’s given rather than what is fastest so that may not be saying much. It’s also my first disc wheel and only one I’ve used so can’t compare.

I would have thought having a spoked v solid disc is massive difference and is up there with the most measurable things when purchasing a disc? Certainly is with my disc choice for IM racing.

Ok but why do you think that? I see no reason for it to be more important than any of the other properties of a wheel, or for it to even be a minor consideration.

Because a spoked disk is no where as harsh to ride than a solid disc. It’s certainly a more pleasurable experience over an IM.

Oh I thought you meant spokes are a negative thing. For whatever reason, some posters talk down spoked disc wheels.

I'm not sure I can tell a difference in harshness, especially in the days of 28mm tires.

I really can't tell any comfort difference between 90 mm with a cover compared to my unspoked disks. But then, I am a fairly lightweight rider.

Tyres have progressed but you can still take some advantage running a spoked wheel it is a huge positive in my boat. I can’t say the road surface has been too great on any IM corses I have ridden especially NZ. Then you need a disk wide enough for a 28mm tyre and not hinder aero advantage which could limit your choices. Have you ridden a Cadex disc? I’d still not be that excited to ride one over a rough IM course with the sweetest of 28 tyres. You can’t get the Continental GP5000 TT TDF edition in that size either so I’ll keep spokes in my top reasons for buying a disc.

The main tradeoff in Ironman racing (IMO) is Fast vs Pleasurable

Yet you can have both 🤗

The Hed Vanquish disc is 21mm internal optimized for 28mm measured tires.

I'd have to buy a bike with disc brakes to match the wheel...

I was in the same boat, and actually got the wheels on sale before deciding on a frame, but no matter the final decision, it’ll be a disc brake bike.

A spoked wheel and a 28mm tyre you have it all... I'm putting off going disc as long as I can unless I'm on the dirt.

I'm tempted by the Parcours Chrono. Price is reasonable, weight is reasonable (if on the "heavier" side at 1240g) but the internal rim width is excellent at 22.5mm, which means it is optimised for 28mm tires and no aero penalty for 30mm.

Roads over here in Europe just seem to get worse every month, and where I am riding now I feel battered after a ride on 28mm tires at a lower pressure. 30s could be the way forward.

On their website they list it as 25.6mm external width? Did you measure it at 27.5?

25.6 is for the rim brake wheel, I have the disc brake wheel which is 27.5mm

Ah that makes more sense.

Thanks.

The discussion whether the disc is better than rim is stupid. Of course you need a disc. Also on a IM full course. Because you need to look cool…the disc is your free coach that tells you every turn to ride faster.
And that’s the truth. Scientifically proven by me, n=1

I just bought a Flo Disc. It's a carbon rim, spoked wheel, with a bonded carbon cover. No ride harshness. Lot of nice features, good videos of how to setup. They actually have them in stock, and ready to ship (unlike many other of these Disc wheels). It's a damned impressive wheel for the price.

FLO is good but not the deal it once was, when you're looking at street price. HED Jet is made in the US for the same price. Citec is made in Germany with DT hubs for the same price. If I didn't care about country of origin and proprietary hubs, I'd either get the Lightbicycle with DT240 (for greater width) or Prime/Premier (for better price).

I've raced the Flo Disc for years, and it's been "OK." It's come slightly out of true, and though I've worked on it, it's still not totally perfect - I have to run my (rim) brakes slightly wider than I'd like. While I'm no wheel-trueing wizard, this one has seemed harder than regular spoked wheels. I sent a video to Flo and was told "that's normal, all wheels have some movement." But it's sure more than I'd like, a few mm at the brake track.


And there's a "pinging" noise that comes and goes. I think this is probably spokes rubbing against each other. Maybe related to my trueness issue, as maybe there's a spoke with lower tension. But no way to use a spoke tension meter to normalize tensions. Also lubed the nipples as best I could....no help.

So it's been a good value, but my next disc wheel will be spokeless, as I've had Zipp discs for track that have been flawless.

As a roadie, I don't care about all-day comfort,.

Is Prime the Wiggle branded wheel?

Keen to hear more on the Prime disc for anyone running it. There are some negative reviews on Wiggle / CRC relating to delamination with air trapping inside the wheel. Has the design been updated to fix this apparent 'defect?'

Cycling pros and top triathlon pros do, sure. But if you could look at the broader set of triathlon pros you might be able to get some data, as most don't have wheel sponsors.

However that data may very well be "what can I afford on a triathlete's budget" so it still may not get to the answer we're looking for.

If I could actually find the info, I'd be curious what cycling pros use in TT when they go "off sponsor" and black out all the logos. But even that answer might be "the disc that worked best in the tunnel with my specific bike setup."

In the end, I got the one that matched my bike color scheme because this answer seemed impossible to nail down objectively without testing I wasn't going to ever be able to do. And matching colors is proven to be worth 3-5 watts.

---

Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4

You can't separate the two as they work as a system. If you have to run a narrow tubular it will definitely be a slower wheel.

---

---

Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

Not sure about tubeless as I use mine with a tube. But I love the wheel, think its amazing value for money. No crappy sticker over the valve hole like on my previous Zipp that cost 3 times as much. And while $1K is still a hell of a lot I feel a little better about travelling and damage risk with a $1K wheel than a $3K wheel..