LOLZ. There's a couple of those every week.

I believe you might be talking about Seth Davidson and his Cycling in the South Bay blog.

Here is his entry on gravel that got some play here.

This is Seth's MO. He's got a way with words, and can be insightful at times. But sometimes he's got certain angry fetishes that result in weird screeds like this one.

yeah. that's it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dude sounds stupid AF, there’s like a zillion runners for each “cyclist”. So yeah, a marathon will have lots of pointy end finishers. Comparing the most popular endurance sport by numbers to gravel racing. Right.

The only real point is maybe the pros getting more media exposure in those gravel events than many lower level UCI events full of pros.

Then again it is a big article when Wiggins suited up for the super local club time trial in full world champs kit. Bigger names.

Maybe I just don't get it but his very premise seems ridiculous. Are there people out there that think a premier gravel event is anything akin to Paris-Roubaix or Flanders? That seems to be to me anyway, the strawman he's railing against.

Indeed.

A blog posting clickbait hot takes against something popular? Inconceivable!

Don’t tell that guy about Ironman (or triathlon in general), his head may explode.

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It seemed like a good idea at the time. . .

Ah, Seth. Guess he came out of his hermit blog retirement phase

If you’ve followed him long enough, everything he does not do sucks and is for losers and everything he does rules.

Until he changes his mind as he used to be a huge BWR promoter but now is one of them bikepackers he’ll deride in a few months

yeah. the one thing i agree with him on is bikepacking. otherwise, i don't think he understands gravel. he seems to think it's road cycling on dirt.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I’ve never ridden gravel, so no input there from me.

I do admire the writing in this screed. I take a tiny issue with his comparing the times between top and bottom riders at the Tour de France with those from gravel racers. If you’re too slow at the tour, you’re dropped from the race, so no comparison.

There’s also a lot of funny in the article. I never thought about a race-themed souvenir bike jersey or many team kits as clown suits, but there you go.

And I love the shade in the kicker at the end (couldn’t possibly be sub-tweeting Slowman, could it) about bikepacking.

The best thing I ever read on that blog — and I think it’s by the same writer — is the legend of Shirtless Keith.

Anyway, thanks for the perspective, Seth!

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Sharon McN
@IronCharo
#TeamZoot
Clif Bar Pace Team 2003-2018

Yes, Shirtless Keith is our local cycling enigma, and they used to ride together when Seth still lived in the area. I've had my a$$ handed to me on many occasions by SK

i just put a little photo essay on SBT GRVL, from which i just returned, on our front page. i mentioned this opinion piece there, and i guess that's my own take on it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thank you for sharing the legend of shirtless Keith…I love that!

Sorry I missed you there. Sounds like you enjoyed it, I did too. FYI, I was standing right by Reggie Miller and Molly Cameron at the start of that video on NPR ;)

John Hunt

Another piece thats partly mike-drop and partly whiney and partly just one persons personal experience -


Read Lea Davidsons piece in Velo News about why she is abandoning gravel racing after 1/2 of a season of doing the "live in Vermont and be a gravel influencer" as part of her retirement from Pro Mountain biking.

On the one hand she decides she doesnt personally like gravel racing, on the other hand is a pretty strong opinion about the safety and nature of racing for women in Gravel, which she clearly decided is not for her.

There are a couple of things I don't agree with her on - if you force a police officer corner marshal at every gravel intersection you will raise the costs and end lots of races going on now. I also disagree with her on a Pro Womens start - we already have that in Triathlon and it doesn't prevent interference with other AG athletes and it certainly doesn't guarantee a womens pack race, lots of female athletes end up separated by many minutes over their competitors. She called out men causing crashes in the early parts of races, but men cause crashes for other men, its not just because its because she is a woman pro.


Lea Davison is dropping out of the Life Time Grand Prix series. Here's why - VeloNews.com

the overwhelming problem with professional endurance athletes (in my opinion) is the notion that the sport is there to serve them. that whatever the sport is - triathlon, bicycle road racing, gravel racing - it's got to evolve in their direction or they take issue.

in each of these sports the pros need to carve out their own place. this is what the PTO is doing. or, what it's doing now. even in the earlier moments of the PTO, that org unfortunately set itself against IRONMAN, instead of realizing that IRONMAN could be its most important strategic ally. that's still a bridge that needs to get rebuilt.

i don't see anything in lea's piece that credits these races for what they are, only criticizes these races for what they aren't. and what they aren't is what they aren't for her.

i agree with her that gravel suffers from the same problem as IRONMAN: you have to compete in a survivathon to make a living. or, this was IRONMAN's problem. about 25 years ago IRONMAN solved this by popularizing, and funding, the 70.3 distance. if i ever do produce a gravel race, the longest course will be less than 100 miles.

but i don't whine about unbound's 200 mile event. i just choose not to race it. if lea or seth or anybody else has an issue with gravel - and in both their cases the "problem" is that the pros are not sufficiently catered to - then, where's your race? show us the race you produce? when i looked around and saw races disappearing at an alarming rate, back in the mid/late 1990s, i didn't complain, i bought a truck and trailer and sent drivers around the country producing a dozen races a year, where i felt those races were needed.

less complaining. more fixing.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

It's the problem of wanting the "pro" experience when the money just isn't there to provide it, otherwise known as entitled endurance athlete syndrome.

http://but i don't whine about unbound's 200 mile event. i just choose not to race it.

Come race the 100 instead.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

I think Lea's article was more nuanced than that -- that gravel as a participatory event was good (using Ted King's event as a hallmark), but that gravel as a *professional* event was lacking.

I don't disagree that gravel could improve certain safety aspects -- which probably would improve the pro experience (somebody, anybody, helping out intersections where there can be cross traffic would be a decent start). But gravel also needs to maintain that "run what you brung" and "all bikes, all people welcome" mentality to keep what's special about it.

Outside of the stupid amount of climbing, and the fact that it might be snowing, you'd love Rasputitsa. Longest race is 100K...ish. (sometimes longer, usually shorter). L

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

I don't follow or no anything about gravel racing and also assumed it was road racing on dirt. I also assumed it was invented by bike companies to sell more product, I wonder what's next, perhaps bikes that can be raced on water?

exactly. i raced the 60 at steamboat last weekend. i don't ever race the longer races in these gravel events. i don't mind that they exist. and this is the point. i don't complain about the races other people put on. i don't complain about the distance, the money, or any of it, unless there's some obvious breaking of the social contract (it's a scam, it's unsafe). if the race is as advertised, barring an act of god, then the RD can produce what he wants and customers will vote with their feet.

me? i don't like contrived races, so, i don't like contrived features in a race to make it more difficult. but i don't mind that some RDs roll differently. i enter the races i want to enter, i don't enter those i don't want to enter, and i don't complain about the races i don't enter. if the race i want doesn't exist, i'm free to create it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

i guess i just don't have a finely tuned ear to that nuance. there were a lot of quotes in that piece, and other than a half-dozen words forming a half-sentence in the sum-up, i could not find what you found. the entire rest of the piece was how gravel is a problem, just like seth's piece. but in each case, the "problem" was that it didn't do enough for the pros.

what i find ironic about the harsh in lifetime is that if any of these riders knew the history of lifetime they'd know that it began as a full-throated effort to finally recognized and honor pro triathletes with the payouts that they deserve. this rankled feathers. les macdonald loudly threw lifetime out from under of the federation umbrella, along with ironman (in 2004, only to be quietly reinstated in 2006), because lifetime competed with the cornerbrook ITU race, with a much much larger prize purse. so, if anybody can appreciate the value of the elite athlete it's bahram akradi and lifetime.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I raced SBT GRVL this past weekend, for the second year. I absolutely LOVE this event. So well organized.

Don't know if anyone else noticed this trend but it seems gravel racers believe it to be cool looking to wear "jorts" (jean shorts) and button up hiking shirts when they ride. I saw a few people kitting up like this last year, but saw a lot more this year.

Slowtwitch REALLY needs a like button! This post is so well-said.

I may have had more reading than just the VeloNews thing -- but that's also because Rooted is in my backyard.

But, showing my love for gravel, I might just be stupid enough to hop into Overland next weekend. (Don't tell the Mrs.) But I am intrigued to see the differences in it versus, say, Rasputitsa. For example, Overland is self-nav. Rasputitsa has signage. I'm not gonna knock the self-nav bit till I try it. But my initial inclination is -- what do you mean there's no course marking?

Again, though, I don't think it'd kill gravel to have some more course marshals at key intersections / potentially dangerous places.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

There was a little more technical terrain, plus a very small water crossing on the 100/142 courses. Two sections with single and double track. Last year, I handled these with ease. This year, a deep hole took me out (for a few seconds) and I ended up with a broken rib (or two)....that hurt to finish.

The SBT GRVL initiative of All Bodies on Bikes was neat. I saw some of these folks really struggling on the hills on the course. Every time I saw one, I tried giving them encouragement. I love to see people giving it their best shot.

I was in the group with Reggie Miller for a bit. He is a strong rider.

Maybe gravel cyclists are taking a page from the motorcyclist handbook......don't dress for the ride, dress for the crash.

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Nah, they are doing it to be trendy. I'm old so I don't get it.

i saw reggie a couple of times on the course. he was all business. yeah, the wife and i rode the 60, which was about all i could handle. (coming back from an ablation, 2 rides in 4 months prior to this.) i guess i spoke to soon on the technical features. on the other hand, BWR in san diego is or was routinely won on a road bike, and that thing has some pretty technical elements.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

When is this happening and where can I sign up? I'll get my out of shape butt back on the bike for this.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

i had a course pretty well designed. with permissions from property owners, and buy-in from the town. the problem was the difficulty. it really was an MTB course. so, i abandoned that one and i'm on the hunt for something else. unfortunately it can't really be around me.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

The only thing that bothers me about the gravel culture is the flask thing. I was at one gravel race pre-ride and there were a group of gravel racer cool kids passing around a flask. And at least one high profile pro loves to show off drinking from a flask.

I'm not anti-alcohol. I totally get the gravel-beer connection, enjoy the post-race beer gardens, etc. Would have no problem with a post-race cocktail garden.

I just don't think drinking from a flask pre-race or mid-race is cool at all, particularly for pros.

Preach.

A part of gravel I don't like is that people (entrants, media, fanbois) treat the distances as a caste system among entrants. Ohhhhhh, you only chose to do the 50 miler. Tisk tisk tisk. Well we're doing the 100 miler and Bobby is doing the 200 XXXXXXXXL event.

You can kinda see it with roadie fondos also. The gnarliest elevation/distance combo gets the most attention.

Intensity is also difficult, not just distance. I mean, the hour record is one of the most highly regarded cycling accomplishments and it is.........wait for it...........an hour long.

I don't care about the drinking but that's just trying too hard to be cool.

That is because nobody wants to compete head to head any more, and if you do, you have to sign up for the race with the deepest field, which trending towards the longer events...

No worries, 'cross is here (well next week it is here).

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Pactimo brand ambassador, ask me about promo codes

Flask during a ride? No. Beer after? Yes. Not a Laufing matter.

Hello Slowman and All,

Seth is living in the mountains ... generally barefoot ... and not bathing or cutting his hair or beard ... hiking and riding his bike ...

In previous years he cranked out an essay every day ... and most were very interesting ... generally had a bicycle mentioned ... but 'It's not about the bike' ...

After a couple of years off the grid he is starting to put out an essay each day again.

You are not alone in seeking out his writing ...... it is very good .... and while a bike is often mentioned ... 'It's not about the bike.'

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

i read it sometime over the last month or so. cycling tips or cycling weekly or some of those. some guy whining about gravel; how it needs to be this or isn't that or something.


The whole Gravel scene is growing and evolving quickly - in some cases explosively! The pandemic, put things on hold for 2 years from a race/event perspective, but the demand/interest just kept growing and growing. Then races/events came back - particularly in the U.S. and kaboom!

In some respects having been there myself, it reminds me a lot of the early days of triathlon - a bit renegade, a bit wild west - then people wanted to come in with rules, and some discipline, standardizations, and some of the "originals" got their backs all up!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Just wait until you see what we’re putting together for FNLD GRVL. It’s the most fun and unique gravel route I’ve ever ridden.

Just wait until you see what we’re putting together for FNLD GRVL. It’s the most fun and unique gravel route I’ve ever ridden.

Great article here, Chris from what you, Micah and the rest of the team discovered over there in Finland - https://www.cyclingweekly.com/...ravels-next-frontier

You'll find many similar kinds of routes and roads in Northern Ontario. Many Finns who immigrated to Canada settled in places like Sault St Marie, North Bay and Thunder Bay because the terrain and the climate was so similar to their original home in Finland!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

June. Damnit. If my wife wasn't a teacher I'd be there.

I keep reading the title as "Winery Option"

Sorry

Carry on

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Yeah, it’s mostly dependent on the F1 schedule and when Valtteri has an open weekend. With SBT already in August doing 2 events that month would be a tall ask.

Thanks. I was keen to see Anne-Marije’s (who wrote that story) opinion as I have a lot of respect for her, and she shoots straight.

I think the best winery option near you is the White Horse Winery in Hammonton.

I'll see myself out now.

I run by Almathea on the regular
Sharrott is really good
Blue Cork is convenient to the whole family

The list goes on

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

way better than when Renault was the only game in town!

I read "entitled endurance athlete syndrome" and my brain started writing a commercial for it like one of those "Won't you please help" ones from the nineties complete with gravel riders being forced to ride on non epic terrain and the beer tent running dry.

Maybe we could put on a bike race fundraiser to help...nah, they'd still complain.

Hello Slowman and All,

https://citsb.com/...on-at-gravel-worlds/

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster