It's a common strongarm douche cop thing in NYC and in Britain. I get that road.cc has a few too many incident reports with vague info, but it makes you wonder sometimes.

I think it will get to the point of a cop getting caught on camera and someone suing the city for millions if they don't stop. Often, with issues like this that aren't even bike/pedestrian related, that's the outcome.

I don't doubt it will take that in this instance.

I would never bike in that city without video recording on my bike and body.

It sounds like this park is a multi-use area. The speed limits are likely there for the safety of the other patrons also using the area. If you want to ride in a multi-use area you have to respect the rights of all of the users to be there safely.

I’m both a police officer and a cyclist. I don’t condone any of the bad behavior alleged to have been done by the police, but sometimes we as cyclists are our own worst enemies. I’ve been walking my police dog (in civilian clothes) on a local multi-use paved path and had bicyclists pass very close to me at more than 20 mph with no warning, which is not safe. I would hate to be a mother trying to take her children for a walk on that same path. I can’t count the number of times a day that I see bicyclists riding on the road and run red lights and stop signs because they think they don’t apply to them. Here, bicyclists are required to ride closest to the right edge of the roadway, but I often see riders two and three wide blocking a lane. It’s bad riding like that which makes other users dislike bicyclists.

My gut tells me this all came to be like this: citizens complained about bicyclists riding unsafely in the park, the mayor’s office told the police to put a stop to it, police went in and wrote some tickets, some bicyclists realized they could ride away from police and avoid getting a ticket, both sides started to escalate their responses, a bicycle lawyer found a couple good incidents to use as ammo against the police, and now there’s national news.

Some police don’t like to be recorded. I don’t understand why because I like having video as proof. I have a camera on my bicycle and my motorcycle because I’m most likely to be in an accident when riding. If you’re worried about getting a ticket, don’t break the law and have video proof to take to court if you are wrongly issued a citation.

This is categorically wrong from a safety standpoint, and you should know better.

Doing this invites the illegal "cheat pass" where a vehicle illegally remains in the same lane of travel to pass a cyclist due to oncoming traffic. Riding some distance from the road edge forces a vehicle to wait for oncoming and not do the "cheat pass".

This is even instructed in some photos/videos from some British based local police forces.

It bothers me when folks claiming to be cyclists post that, when it is sooooo wrong and can get folks killed telling them to stay to the far right.

It’s the law in my jurisdiction. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. I don’t know what the law is in Toronto or Britain. If you don’t think you can safely ride on a road and also follow the law, the answer isn’t to break the law. And if you feel entitled to break the law because you’ve deemed it safer, well that would be why people are complaining about cyclists.

The bolded is what my State's statute say, to the right most edge of the roadway as practicable, no more than two abreast (MN Statute 169.222 subd 4), Statute 169.011 subd 68 defines the road way as "portion of a highway improved, designed or ordinarily used for vehicular traffic EXCLUSIVE of the sidewalk or shoulder. You are permitted to operate a bicycle on the shoulder.

I avoid riding in parks or on trails while on a road bike at all costs, too many people doing stupid things unpredictably. Yelling at people to make a pass to no avail as they cannot hear through their head phones.

---

Pactimo brand ambassador, ask me about promo codes

Post it.

You're a sad example of your job if you're going to tell people to do something that's inherently very very dangerous and can get them killed.

I can't stand folks like you. You know exactly the scenario we're talking about and you're standing likely on the old school "to the right as practicable". Which the assholes interpret as shoving bikes into the gutter and clipping them and killing them as they pass.

If you're talking about a person riding dead center of a lane, fine. If you're going to try to sit here in a forum with bike riders and tell them to ride the right white line, you're a freaking douche that's going to get someone killed and you need to be called out.

What's your jurisdiction? Maybe we should call them up and and have a chat about this one as you don't seem to understand how to interpret that pretty common law.

Where is your jurisdiction?
I ask, because I do not want to accidentally find myself riding there. Sounds dangerous.

I lived in Montana (USA) for a long time, and I carried the rules of the road in my pocket.
I've been on three group rides that were (wrongly) pulled over by police officers. It took the actual rules of the road to get them to leave us alone.

Exactly.

As practicable means don't be weaving all over the lane taking up the whole lane. It also doesn't mean to ride with your tire two inches from a low shoulder/glass/debris/mailboxes. Nevermind also it isn't practicable in corners so that approaching traffic can see you in the corner. If a cyclist has a clear straight road and is mid lane holding folks up, correct, that is a time they're wrong and it is practicable to move right.

Folks interpret this one super super wrong, frequently. And yes they get it wrong as cops also.

Learn the word practicable. Able to be done or put into practice successfully. Practicable is situational, not fixed for all situations. It's not practicable in a blind curve to ride the right white line while hitting mailboxes as you pass. It is practicable to gtfo of the center of the lane on a super straight good visibility safe situation.

Then folks get all high and mighty "I'm a cop and ya'll are just abusing this" about it.

Dude, we freaking DIE when this goes wrong. And he's telling them to do it wrong.

You sir, have made my case in point.

That you don't even know how to apply the law yourself but you come into a forum utilizing your community status as leverage to spout bullshit?

Right. Keep digging Johnny.

Our bike/peds trail system has a speed limit of 15 mph. Often bikers will exceed it but are generally ‘thoughtful’ about doing so. Using it during times when the trail isn’t busy and slowing down and giving room when passing by slower trail users.

However lately we’ve seen a huge surge in ebikes. Most of the riders are are fine. However there are a number with modded Class 2 ebikes - they go flying by at 25 mph using the throttle without pedaling. Basically these are electric motorcycles that have an option to pedal. Often times it’s right down the middle of the busy trail without calling out or giving others room. I wish the police here would set up speed traps and come down hard on these people before someone gets hurt.

---

Matt

Here in Denmark, with a great cycling culture, it is also required to keep as far to the right as possible. It works really well in most cases. I agree with kay9cop.

I don't doubt it, but I think we're talking two different expectations here.

Question to you both as posters, post a photo of where on the road you expect a rider to be on the following situations:
1. straight road, 6" wide shoulder 3" wide white line, clear visibility
2. heavy curve to the right
3. Same as #1 but broad shoulder, clear of debris, wider enough for a rider to fully fit

My answer to #1 is the tire being 1/2 of your body width from your furthest right body part to the center of the tire. So if you're on 420mm bars that's 210mm plus a few mm for your elbows.

My answer to #2 depends on the curvature of the road. But more than #1. Answer to #3 is on the broad shoulder.

I agree also. Not sure why everyone is going so upset over something which is common sense. I don’t think kay9cop means you need to ride in the gutter, just ride as far to the right as you can.

 It’s bad riding like that which makes other users dislike bicyclists.

--------

The human psyche is a weird thing. I hear all the time, "ride correctly" so your not a bad example so the next cyclist doesn't have a bad interaction from a "pissed" off motorist. Yet, I never hear that logic applied to any other interaction. You never hear how motorists need to drive better so the next person isn't harmed.


It's just odd that there seems to be this "extra" level of politeness that we all have to ride with. I drive through neighborhoods and "california roll" it when I see it's clear of traffic. Just like I do as a cyclist. And I'll take a ticket in the event some cop sees me do that. But again when no traffic is around, I'm not going to come to a "complete" stop whether in a car OR a bike. I see thousands of motorists behave in this same manner. ETA: But I'm not going to run a red light when traffic is all around or blow through a stop sign just because I"m on the bike. I take an assessment of the area, if it's clear, I'm not going to "stop". Again I'm not going to ride like a asshole in traffic, but if an intersection is clear of traffic, I'm going to roll the stop sign.

I get it though, one action is going to "piss" off a driver so now they have rage mode inacted towards the next cyclist. I just kinda shoulder shrug cus this is very rarely inacted towards motorist v motorist. Of course I hear all the time of road rage incidents etc, but there seems to be this level of expectation added only to bicylist or else they are now "endangering" the next guy.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

1. On road with traffic, edge of outside handlebar on the white line. This gives me about 12" to 18" of leeway. (I think this is roughly what you are saying?)

2. Assuming you mean curb? 18" to 24" since often need to avoid grates in this scenario as well.
3. On the line. I will pull onto the shoulder if traffic coming in opposite lane. Shoulders are usually where the glass/gravel/etc that causes a flat are collected.

---

***

They say that, but that's not what driver's expectations are. They expect the gutter.

I asked for clarification because I think you and FSENG and I are on the same page. I sound like I'm railing against logic here, but I'm railing against sending people into the gutter. Not railing against telling someone to go right. Don't be a D and take up the whole lane, keep right. Sure.

But the poster said "closest to the right edge of the roadway". Which is the gutter.

Hence me asking for a picture of a road with a dot or photo of a rider with a "correct vs incorrect".

I ride in Quebec and Ontario (two Canadian provinces), an hour between the two locations

If I did the "ride to the left and make people slow down to pass" in Ontario, I'd probably get away with it.

In Quebec, I'm begging for an altercation with a driver. I'm begging to get buzzed. Hi probability it will be in a pickup truck :-)

The Garmin Varia has been the greatest thing since sliced bread. It allows me to ride a little more to the left until a car comes and then move over and be cautious until he passes.

It doesn't really matter what the law says. I'd rather be wrong than dead.

Im not sure how it works in the States, but in DK there is not “right of way”. If it can happen in a safe way, it is permitted to overtake to the left. All vehicles, bikes, cars, trucks and so om, must keep to the right. And of course not in the gutter. If a shoulder exist, and it is without to much debris and /or potholes, is choose to and are permitted to drive there. Luckily most major roads in my area have designated bike lanes.

This is exactly what I do with the Varia. And is my exact opinion on the issue.

I'll let a lawyer argue a ticket, as that means I'm alive.

I think we need to make a distinction between riding as far to the right as possible and as far to the right as practicable. For example, on one of the local county roads, the road is starting to break up on the right side, for about 2 feet. While it may be possible to ride in that broken pavement, it is more practicable to ride to the left of the crumbly asphalt. I think the local law uses the term practicable. I think Forster's book on "Effective Cycling" covers this.

---

salmon - not because I'm a fish

Follow up article in the local newspaper says the cycling advocacy group Cycling Toronto met with the Mayor, the police, and park users to come up with a joint solution.

Seems that things have simmered down since the inflammatory article.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2022/08/10/john-tory-meets-with-cycle-toronto-over-high-park-feud.html

It seems like everyone here is agreeing that as far right as practical is what should be done, as there will be obstacles to avoid and you need a little space between you and the edge of the road. However some motorists/police who don’t ride may expect cyclists to be an inch away from the gutter. As we saw in Casey Neistat’s video ‘bike lanes’ unfortunately cyclists are given unrealistic expectations. Though at the same time it’s not uncommon for Cyclists to be jerks, so you can see why some will have a negative view.

It is when cars are overtaking, it can get dangerous. In DK there is a demand, that when overtaking there must be a safe distance, but it is not fixed. In Germany and Spain there is a fixed minimum distance at 2 or 3 feet when overtaking bikes. If a lane isn’t wide enough, overtaking is prohibited… I guess a lot of car drivers fail to follow that law.

This issue is about pedestrians, bikes and cars all must co exist at the roads, without accidents

I have a question for ya since you are a police officer and cyclist - I've always wondered about this. We have very similar wording in my jurisdiction to what you mentioned, "bicyclists are required to ride closes to the right edge of the roadway". My question is about the definition of 'roadway'. Say I'm riding on a road, and there is a paved shoulder that does not meet the definition of a bike lane. Is that paved shoulder considered part of the roadway? If no, then am I riding legally even if I'm say 1 foot from the left side of the white line?

---

_______________________________________________

What Garmin device do you use with this? I've got a 945 and it says its compatible. Might be a good Christmas present to ask for.

I use it with a 530. I am surprised and disappointed it doesn't work with a 945.

A quick peek I see a youtube on how to do it but not sure how valid it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPTGHZEtP6U

Thanks for the video posting. I'll have a look at what DCR says as well. But at first glance I think it would be hard for me to see that on my watch (my eyes are getting old, just like my knees!). Might be worth getting the bundle package though which just has three lights (g,y,r). Interesting.

Jesus you seem like you need to take a few deep breaths or possibly regroup yourself before you get back into this thread. And you came in swinging talking about douche bag cops. Your axe grinding is duly noted.

Here there is literally a cop and a cyclist offering his very polite opinions, and also presenting factual laws from his jurisdiction, which other posters have chimed in to show is similar to where they live, and you’re going off on how terrible this person is, you can’t stand people like them, he’s a sad example of his job etc.

And we wonder why progress doesn’t get made on these topics? I don’t have a strong opinion on this matter but I can tell you that your posts from the get go were obnoxious and biased.

I use the Varia with my 945, it works perfectly. You get the colors, dots for cars, beeps, no problemo. Pairing it is easy too. Just get it you won't regret it.

I hear why folks above have complained about the rule "ride as far right as possible" as being bad, but I think riding as far right as 'practical' pretty much sums it up.

I hate when riders have a perfectly wide, beautiful shoulder (which we do have often here in NorCal), and the cyclists insist on riding as far LEFT as possible, which means they're pretty much 1-2 inches off the right road marking line. This happens more often than not, which means me, as usually the faster rider on the aero TT bike, have to pass in the road, because the few times I've passed on the right because there was an entire car-width space on the right, have gotten me cursed out by the cyclist I pass, even when I announce I'm coming from behind on the right (I understand that, but if he just rode slightly to the right, and not even close to the gutter, I'd easily pass on the left.)

I'm as bike-friendly a driver as they come as well, but it's also a minor pet peeve of mine when I'm driving on a decently busy road with posted speed limits of 50mph, which also has a really large nice shoulder for cycling, and these cyclists again are riding at the leftmost portion of the shoulder, to the point I have to slow down or change lanes as I get near them because they're constantly drifting into the car lane. When you've got a really wide road shoulder (I know, I ride that same route a LOT!), you shouldn't be pushing up on the fast-moving cars.

When there's no shoulder, I'm always super safe and have no problems waiting as long as needed to make a safe pass with the car with ample room. Even if it means backing up some traffic behind me.

I second this - bizarre, disproportionate and misguided reaction.

To respond to your original question.

High Park in Toronto has a 1.8km loop. It has a downhill section that occupies half the distance, at the fastest part of the loop there are two stop signs (as I remember). There are also stop signs at the top and a merging traffic lane. I have ridden the loop and although the speed limit is 20kph (12 1/2 mph), no one takes the slightest notice. There are restaurants and other food trucks that attract a lot of people as well as a children's zoo and a spring Cherry Blossom festival. The place, on a nice day is packed with people and kiddies. They all cross the road wherever they choose, because that's what people do in a park.

There's always a group or ten who ramp up the speed, not to mention E Bikes, motor bikes and of course the idiots in cars who have no better awareness, except they weigh 4,000 lbs. All of them are on their phones at some point.

Around the time of the Tours in Europe, all the wannabes are out in full force. Enforcing a simple stop sign requirement and a speed limit ruins it for all these future tour riders.

If I want to ride that's not a place I'm going unless I want a burgher.

As for, is it bad in Toronto for cyclists, not really. If we get pissed at anyone here, the likelihood of being shot is minimal. The average number of cyclists killed here is around seven ( although it is twelve this year to date). So, on average the same as Chicago, although it should be remembered Toronto has a much larger population.

Hope that helps.

ps I ride about 200k a week on Toronto roads, but almost none on a road (without a bike lane). I live in the absolute center of the city.

Agree

As someone in UK I've never experienced, or know any other cyclists, who have experienced anything like this. Maybe there is somewhere in UK where it happens, but its definitely not the norm or common across the whole country.

UK rider here. We're told, and taught in schools, about Primary and Secondary position on the road. We now have 1.5m clearance that vehicles are expected to give cyclists or in theory have action taken for a close pass by the police. Effectively over taking vehicles on a two lane road need to go in to the other lane to pass, squeezing past in the same lane will be a close pass.

Secondary position is essentially the inside wheel track position of a car, not the gutter, for most riding. Primary position is middle of the lane when you need to assert your position where there is danger of people not seeing you around corners/ busy streets/squeezing past at traffic islands etx/ roundabout lanes and junctions.

Chris Boardman, who I assume any cyclist knows of, is very involved and vocal on the issues as the cycling and walking commissioner for Manchester.

I know people have had speeding tickets and being stopped in some busy London parks, but other than London I'm not aware of it. It's pretty uncommon really.

Police knowledge and application of the law varies widely in the UK, but some forces, noteably West Midland Police, are very proactive in educating drivers on cycle least and close passes. Police in some rural locations I've lived don't seem interested in protecting law abiding cyclists even with vidoe footage of incidents.

As for cyclists not obeying rules of the road, obviously it happens , some people are just dicks, but compared to the number of drivers speeding, drink/drug driving, on phones, not signalling, pulling out at junctions/through lights, uninsured and in unsafe vehicles, and the hazard and deaths that causes it is almost insignificant.

And yet he is right

When my life is on the line I don't take bullshit from anyone, whether it's a self-proclaimed cop or not.

Drivers and cars do need a permit to drive through the roads. Cyclists (and walkers and runners) don't because it's our right.
Bear that in mind the next time you feel entitled to harass a cyclist, officer.

Ahh so as long as you’re “right” it’s carte blanche to be rude and disingenuous? Ok got it, thanks.

Actually what I should have said was that him being “right” is also up for debate. BTS came in absolutely swinging and was proven wrong by multiple posters who said their laws regarding riding position were the same as Kay9’s. BTS is acting like Kay9 wrote the laws and wants riders dead. That’s just utterly ridiculous and disingenuous. Which was followed by ad hominem attacks. That’s a lot of intellectual dishonesty right there.

My original point still stands. I was commenting on how BTS was participating in this thread, right or wrong. Yet on that point, I reiterate that being “right” in a thread where you disagree with a poster (who was being quite deferential) doesn’t call for the language, tone, or lack of courtesy that was used to get his point or feelings across.

I understand you don't get triggered by someone putting cyclists in danger but you do when someone uses rude words. I really do, because I'm the other way round.

More on topic, just to be clear: The job of cops is not to protect you or me (as many have recently discovered!). But if they go one step ahead and harass me while I'm trying to be safe while riding I'm going to call them out.

And sure I'd better call my political representative and yadda yadda yadda but in the meantime I'm not staying silent. Because that's what triggers me.

But you want to talk about manners? Ok, whatever...

According to cyclists accounts, the Toronto Police are outright harassing and even assaulting cyclists. Is it really this bad there?

Yes and no!

Like many things this is a complicated situation.

There is a 20km/h speed limit on High Park Roads, and on a favorite loop that cyclists like to do - there are several Stop signs. High Park, while not that even a comparison High Park would be somewhat akin to Central Park in NYC. High Park is a busy multi-use urban park!

There is uproar in the cycling community because, the situation out on the roads of Toronto ( and in the GTA) has become worse in many ways. There is a much heightened level of belligerence from motorists and behavior that they can literarily do anything they want to.

The above goes beyond anecdotal. In 2019 then Toronto Police Chief Mark Saunders let it slip in a Radio Interview that the Toronto Police had withdrawn from almost ALL Traffic Enforcement work, and it had been that way for a number of years. There was then some stats that came out that in the previous 5 years from the Chief saying this, that driver-to-driver crashes, collisions between drivers and pedestrians/cyclists, and fatalities of that latter group, were ALL up notably!! How could that be construed in ANYWAY as a good thing. Adding to the irony of this is that the Mayor of Toronto along with the Toronto Police had be advocating for a number of years about #VisionZero!!

Just recently I was out for a ride up north of Toronto near Aurora where I live in York Region. I was stopped at a light and a York Region Police Cruiser pulls up beside me. I sat there and watched as a driver on the cross road completely ran a Red Light right in front of us. I gave the WTF signal to the Police Officer - he shrugged his shoulders!! I sight this showing that, that is where we are at . . no one seems to care. There are minimal to no consequences for Motorists, who as I mentioned literally do anything they want to - illegal or otherwise, unsafe, or otherwise on the roads.

Last year, despite fewer miles driven collectively in the GTA by motorists (due to the pandemic), Pedestrian and Cyclists fatalities were up, AGAIN!

I say all of this to explain WHY the cycling community was outraged by what was going on in High Park. Yes the cyclists were speeding. Yes they ran Stop signs. But no one was hurt/killed. Meanwhile on the roads of Toronto and the GTA, Motorists do whatever they want to and more and more pedestrians/cyclists than ever are getting hurt and killed. Make a mistake, break the law, and drive recklessly in a motor vehicle - REALLY bad things happen, VERY quickly. Why is NOTHING being done to address that??

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I’m really not sure what makes you think I don’t care about cyclists. My one friend has been clipped twice since he started riding. One put him in a ditch. My other friend who we ride with got hit last year and ended up with surgery on his clavicle and shoulder. I don’t trust people driving. I ride enough to be concerned.

The fact that you’re using the word triggered by default when someone has an issue with another poster’s MO pretty much sums up the fact that you’re not going to be coming into a discussion level-headed. Therefore it will be pointless. Exactly how BTS came in.

Again, my points stand. This has nothing to do with being triggered or not. This is about fostering productive dialogue. For the purposes of fruitful discussion, you have both shown your cards and that’s fine. You do you. When people fail to continue to respond some people think they’ve “won” when in reality the people who disengage realize it’s not worth their time to continue.


Have a good rest of the weekend.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough: I do NOT think you don't care for cyclists.

What I believe is that you're more concerned about words than acts. Which---again---is fine, just not my modus operandi. Yet, I won't be using words like "trigger" anymore because it seems you find them pejorative. My apologies if you ever felt yourself diminished in any way. I sincerely hope you feel better now.

There are no winners, though. Only losers. Those who lose their time, those who lose their lives.

However, as it seems, you'd better disengage thus there's nothing I can do. Nor will I.


Except maybe if ... nah just kidding. Good weekend

I must admit: This phrase is pure machiavellian. I love it. Well played, sir!