I didn't want to believe it at first. I'm a fan and have been following her for a while. she best chance for medal for US in 1500m. I'm also huge fan of Shalane Flanagan who seemed devastated (IG post: part 1 part 2)

But reading more on the science, I have some doubts on her innocence. Two papers that Steve Magness, Nike whistleblower, posted. Seems very unlike to test positive from eating a pork burrito. Study was with consumption of a lot of offal from uncastrated pig/boar.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...articles/PMC2657496/

https://analyticalsciencejournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/...-RCM991%3E3.0.CO;2-7

For those who don't know what's going on https://olympics.nbcsports.com/...lone-olympic-trials/

She is innocent in my opinion. I hope they can somehow turn this around before the olympic trials. Its devastating news for someone who has dedicated her whole life to running and reaching the olympics. The testing process has many flaws in it and suspending a young innocent girl before the olympics is a very serious decision.

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"I swim because that's how I get to ride my bike."

To be pedantic, you didn't link to anything. Nothing to discuss.




It's already done, this was awhile ago as it had already gone to CAS and her appeal was tossed on Friday.

Didn't she make some big improvements recently?

Undoubtedly there are some flaws in the testing process but the bar is set very high before a positive result is presented.

Although reading your post I suspect you meant to write it in pink but forgot to change the colour.

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Trust me I’m a doctor!
Well, I have a PhD :-)

Did not see the news on this yet. Definitely disappointing, she has a super likable personality

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Matt

I’ve seen roughly 42 thousand doping explanations over the years and most strain believability, so I reckon I’m pretty jaded at this point.

2 things:

-I don’t believe she doesn’t know what nandrolone is. As an Olympic hopeful you should know all of these things. Heck I know this one and I’d need to knock 2 minutes off my 1500 time to be even close.
-in my own humble opinion, she should’ve been aware that it was theoretically possible to test positive via tainted meat. Contador tried this one years ago. I don’t know the actual likelihood but it’s not my job to know, it IS literally her job. Zzz

To be clear, I don’t know if she doped or not - my default is usually yes - but these two things popped into my head watching the video.

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Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.

I thought this was a good and fair article from letsrun. It discusses a few recent positive/failed drug tests, which some were over turned. https://www.letsrun.com/...eal-is-unsuccessful/


I very much agree with the closing segment that regardless of who's right the system needs to change:


"If the US food supply is tainted, then WADA and the AIU need to change the level needed to trigger a positive test or mandate that athletes not eat certain foods — or tell them if they do eat those foods and test positive, they are out of luck. What we have going on right now isn’t good for anyone. We can’t have the stars of the sport testing positive and then sometimes getting banned and sometimes not.
If you believe the athletes, then three different athletes did the same thing — went out to eat and had three different results. One missed no time (Ajee Wilson), one basically lost two years (Jarrion Lawson) and one seems poised to miss four.
We are certain of one thing, having people test positive and then be forced to put their careers on hold for months/years only to clear them later as was the case with Lawson is terribly unfair."

At least from reading Schumacher's post and Houlihan's IG post, they are very carefully worded that she ate at a food truck, but not that she actually ate pork or offal.

But ultimately what got me was when Schumacher wrote "a substance called nandrolone, something that neither Shelby nor I had ever heard of." (https://www.bowermantc.com/...ach-jerry-schumacher)

A world-famous coach had never in his entire life heard of nandrolone? That is just not believable, which immediately for me makes everything else he says not believable.

Isnt Nandralone the same drug top sprinters were caught , Ben Johnson?

FloTrack youtube has interviews from Houlihan, Flanagan, and Schumacher. All seem very believable, but I find extremely hard to believe they never heard of Nandralone?

How often do athletes that pop blames something else rather than just face the music. We've seen it a ton in triathlon with Ostarine. No way in hell are you popping at 5ng/ml after a burrito unless it was shot up with Nandralone.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Ah, the old Alberto Contador "I ate a steak" routine. Hmm...we'll have to see how this one pans out if there are whistleblower releases on this...it may be the *reason* why she is the top 1500 runner.

That said, it is not plausible to test all the food you eat & who can pass up a good Mexican food truck? It would be hard to think of having to live in paranoia all the time that no matter what you eat you could get something ingested that would get you popped. Then again, as a professional it is her job to make sure she is doing whatever she can to avoid it--but who would think of all things a Chalupa or burrito/taco would put you in that position? The amount and detection process is so super sensitive these days but it has to be, because those knowingly doing it are so crafty and know much about avoiding getting caught...seems there has to be a point where it will eventually catch someone if that is indeed the case here.

Even it if was reversed in an emergency CAS or reinstated--the mental blow to her would surely take her out of the game somewhat where she wouldn't make the team. I hope whatever psychological blow is dealt to her for better or worse of the outcome down the road--that she stays strong and doesn't do something as a result of depression. Has to be hard either way.

What level did she actually register and how is that in comparison to all the other tests she had?

I am cynical about claims regarding contaminated meat but if the levels are extremely low it is unlikely to have come from administered drugs. The levels are way higher.

she claims she got an on january 14 about failing a drug test on december 15 and then was able to figure out every meal she ate the week leading up to december 18 (not credible unless she keeps a food diary, which she doesn't) and remembered that she at a pork burrito just 10 hours before the test (no receipt or credit card charge). of course they didn't bother to test any meat from the supposed food truck (not that clean or dirty meat a month later would mean much) but just threw out there that her failed test was due to this burrito that they purely are guessing was tainted. you can't make this up. i find it offensive that so many people are coming to her defense with cries of "she's innocent!" how does anyone know that? they don't. it would be much more credible to say something like "i have known her for x years and i never have seen her do anything remotely shady so i just can't believe that she knowingly did anything wrong."

she also posted: "I want to be very clear: I have never taken any performance enhancing substances." The facts say otherwise even if it were unintentional.

The food style may be Mexican, but the truck is in Oregon. The pork that truck is sourcing is coming from the same farms/processors as the pork you'd get at the local supermarket or BBQ joint.

There are the issues with Clenbuterol contamination of pork in China and Mexico (and athletes are advised about this), but that meat isn't getting to Beaverton. Feels a bit like they are trying to imply that a sketchy food truck was the problem, which is just diversionary.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

100% this^^
She got a positive and did a google search of the drug in food and it came up with a case of pork offal in Mexico. They decide that eating a pork burrito in USA is close enough

in what was is she innocent?

she had the elevated levels in her system. Unfortunate yes, but if you are a world class, professional athlete, perhaps you should have a bit more discipline that eating food truck burritos.

At some point, you either would conclude all the "tainted meat" stories are rubbish excuses, or the athletes and their coaches/managers are just not doing their job right and being really careful about controlling what the athletes are eating. When there are millions of dollars and Olympic medals on the line, the successful people are the ones doing all the little things.

So I truly feel bad for her, but also can say there were reasonable and arguably prudent things she could have been doing that would have prevented this.

There's really no evidence to say the US food supply is universally tainted. Go do 50,000 random tests of regular people and come back with some evidence.

And again, even if there is some fairly common positives, let's look at what kind of stuff people were eating who tested positive. With the kind of money most of these athletes are making it shouldn't be a problem (and arguably it should be a primary part of their job, it they truly want to be high performance) to be extremely careful about what they are eating and how they are sourcing it.

I guess you have never heard of micro-doping?

The levels are set at what they are for a reason. Saying that the number was barely above the limit doesn't provide any kind of compelling evidence it was unintentional. If an athlete is being professionally doped, the only positive you might expect would be one like this, because the levels are being carefully controlled to stay below the limits (or significantly limiting the windows when they could be above).

And I am not saying she was intentionally doping, just pointing out the specific level she tested at doesn't provide conclusive proof of how the substance got into her system (intentional or unintentional)

it's a tough call. i'm not sure whether she's guilty - really, none of us are.

part of me is cynical and thinks, "yeah, basically everyone is doping. she screwed up her cycle and got busted." another part of me thinks, "damn, i'm not too careful about what i eat myself - i wonder if something scary like that could happen to me, and then ruin my credibility. how would i clear my name?"

i also wonder what the reaction would be if, instead of being a blonde-haired all-american girl named shelby, she was an obscure mid-career romanian named, say, iona draganescu. when it's someone you feel you (vaguely) know and have followed, it's a heartbreaking story of an unintentional positive, but you have to admit that if this were a stranger from far away, the "i must have eaten some tainted pork" story sounds far-fetched.

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

If she tested before and after in close proximity I would be more convinced.

I am not saying she did or didn’t dope but merely asking what level was it. If it is minuscule and barely above the legal limit so be it. However, if she had a test just before and just after it could possibly point to being an accidental contamination.

Even so I do believe the athlete is responsible.

4 years seems extremely harsh.

I don't really have an opinion on the case in question as I don't know enough about it, however it never ceases to amaze me how many elite athletes seem to eat food from questionable sources. Maybe they are all just really unlucky to get tested right after having eaten tainted food.

Having read a bit more about it, I am absolutely amazed that a track athlete and her coach have both never heard of Nandrolone. Maybe it is because I am British and of an age where I grew up seeing Linford Christie on the TV constantly, but I am hugely shocked that neither of them have even heard of it.

These Russians are always cheating. Oh wait, she's American? In that case I believe she is clean, plus she seems nice and nice people don't dope. Her and her coach haven't even heard of nandrolone.

This isn't Armstrong level denial but still hilarious. She's a doper, get over it.

yeah, that part just doesn't pass the basic smell test. i'm a mediocre age-group triathlete, and i've heard of nandrolone. hell, everyone and their brother was taking that stuff 20 years ago. there were many people busted for it, including endurance athletes - dieter baumann, spencer smith, jurgen zack, olivier bernhard, etc etc etc...

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Well, to be honest, I almost entitled the thread "Jorgensen teammate gets 4 year ban after positive test for Nandrolone"

But I didn't want Dan to get mad.

I'm very skeptical of anyone who holds records being clean. After all there was a time when T&F athletes could more or less dope with immunity. Look at how many female world records are still there from the 80s and 90s.

It is interesting to point out that several of the BTC athletes posted support for Houlihan yesterday. Gwen wasn't one of them.

She probably doesn't want anything to do with the situation as there is pretty much nothing to gain from getting involved, I don't blame her one bit.

AR in the 5000 and 1500 in the past year or so.

Since she is going for the contaminated meat bs like Contador, my guess is that the levels must be low enough. A contaminated supplement could be the real source. Nandrolone stays in the system for months, so seems like a dumb drug choice. Past cases have shown that admitting to a contaminated supplement almost always ends up in a conviction (could be wrong here). However, to my knowledge, no athlete has been successful at using the contaminated meat excuse unless they were at a region that could actually have contaminated meat (i.e. clen in China and Mexico, some soccer players come to mind).

In my view, the sketchy food truck excuse is really not helping her image among educated fans.

It's actually happened a few times recently (this is from an article from another endurance news/forum website):

• 2017: The US record holder in the 800 meters, Ajee’ Wilson, tested positive for zeranol but wasn’t suspended after USADA ruled that the zeranol likely stemmed from contaminated meat.
• 2018: Jarrion Lawson, the silver medalist in the long jump at the 2017 World Championships, was suspended by the AIU for testing positive for the steroid trenbolone. He was forced to miss almost two years of competition, but was ultimately cleared after a Court of Arbitration for Sport panel overturned his ban.
• 2018: Will Claye, a three-time Olympic medalist in the long/triple jump, tested positive for clenbuterol but avoided a suspension after USADA believed his explanation of eating contaminated meat.
• 2020: Brenda Martinez, the 2013 World Championship silver medalist in the 800 meters, tested positive for hydrochlorothiazide, a diuretic which can be used as a masking agent. USADA issued a no-fault finding and Martinez avoided a ban after she proved the hydrochlorothiazide stemmed from a contaminated antidepressant medication she was taking.

Maybe they don't follow baseball?

https://en.wikipedia.org/...ce#Nandrolone_esters

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Of course they've heard of it.

I believe that Shelby is a doper and that Jerry, Shalane, and Shelby are liars.

The parade of coincidence is absurd. She gets popped after a 2-year stretch of dominance where she breaks 2 significant American records and looks completely jacked.

The pork alibi comes from a study in which the offal came from uncastrated boars (virtually ALL male pigs raised for meat are castrated) and the study participants ate over 2/3 of a pound of that stuff in order to have the same levels of nandrolone in their system as Shelby.

I know she's an elite endurance athlete, but can she actually eat that much offal?!?! Would anybody actually serve that much of it in a damned burrito?

They "never heard of nandrolone" and claim to care about clean sport.

GTFOH

i know it isn't proof, but that progression from having bests of 4:03 and 15:06 at 23 (and looking to be hitting a plateau) - to 3:54 and 14:23 over the following few years need an explanation. Inflexion points in performance for those in their mid-20s, already training full-time and performing at a very high level don't just happen. As i said, not proof, but needing an explanation.

......and i was a fan of Jerry and the BTC.

I'm a former pharmacist, and competitive runner for over 45 years who has more knowledge of PEDS than most (I'd even go to lectures on testing practices), but still find it unbelievable that any top class athlete and coach wouldn't have heard of nandrolone. If it was my job i would know the list inside out.

Know the list, know the cases of false positives [tainted food, or prescriptions meds], and don't do or take those things, just to be sure - don't use the false positives as examples of potential excuses later on

#just_DONT_do_it

If you have to skip the taco truck, or use a different inhaler or ant-depressant for a while, that's better than being labelled a doper for the rest of your career

I could be wrong

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Guilty as charged. This is a lame ass excuse. They're grabbing at straws. She should admit she doped. Popped hot and got caught. End of story.

BTW she does look crazy jacked. In one pic on Insta she is flexing beside a dude. I know she is a professional athlete, but good gracious her body doesn't look natural. That is probably because it isn't natural.

The whole thing makes me sad.
And I was in denial at first.

But this.

She does look jacked. Much more so than her teammates and competitors.

Maybe it's just her.

this is typical of doping busts. and course cutting. and every other bad act. proximity to (person knowledge of) a person causes you to consider the person innocent. distance (if you don't know the person) causes you to consider the person guilty. i promise you that those of her teammates who're posting support consider some other poor slob, who posts in support of somebody he or she knows, "in league with the dopers." to me, it's not a reflection of guilt or innocence, it's just human nature.

i do find it highly unlikely the coach had not heard of nandrolone. there were lots of busts for this, in T&F. merlene ottey. linford christie. our own spencer smith returned a positive sample (spencer however was cleared at CAS). a whole bunch of positives for this right around 1998 and 99 (and shortly thereafter). there was a problem with the test, initially, because there was no threshold. that was later changed, and a threshold instituted.

i guess i'd like to know what the amount was, in her system. there have been cases in the past, experiments where people were given nandrolone tainted meat, and i'd like to know what the percentages were in those cases, if metabolites were found.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I have no clue if she is guilty or not, but the statement put out by Jerry and BTC did not help her cause at all.

i believe i have read that it was double the threshold

that is one big ass burrito.

Jacked + crazy eyes + tattoos

My kinda girl

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Well we all know how elite female distance runners frequently gorge themselves on massive servings of burritos filled with 4000 calories worth of internal organs... So many over-eating disorders in the sport due to societal and coaching pressure to be big enough to win a sumo match....

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

So as a potential Olympic athlete, just weeks from the trials, she ate from a roadside food truck not knowing what she was really eating or what was in it? Assuming this food truck is/was regularly at this place why not track it down and get some analysis done on what she ate/where the vendor got it from etc? Might not have prevented a ban but may have reduced the length?

Beaverton Street Burrito? BSB?

She was tested in Mid December 2020, so not quite weeks from the trials. It is now just coming to a conclusion and the hammer dropped on her.

Didn't you see the movie Chef [Jon Favreau, John Leguizamo, Scarlett Johanssen]? That truck could be long gone and back to Florida by the time the failed test was revealed

Maybe even changed hands a couple of times

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

What I find most interesting (even from the comments here) is the double standard that many are applying to her vs others that failed drug tests. People here are proclaiming her innocence without any information one way or the other for heaven's sake! If she were almost any other nationality, or maybe even looked different as an American (e.g. not white and good looking), the comments would have a lot less denial (even compare to when Froome's positive came out, and that was one of the more mixed ones). I also have an issue with her teammates posting messages of support- I know you may like her personally but it's not a good look to throw your hat into the ring behind someone who tested positive. Better to just stay out and not bring more scrutiny on the team and themselves as athletes.

Fact of the matter is that she had double the limit of a banned substance, and it's her responsibility to show definitive proof of how that happened or she should rightly be banned and labeled a doper. Now that said, there is a serious issues with inconsistent penalties from anti-doping agencies for violations (4 years here seems crazy, as did the original multi-year ban for Starky). I also think that a philosophical discussion is needed about what substances SHOULD be banned vs permitted- but right now the rules are written and it's athletes and coaches' responsibility to know and abide. Intentionally or not, Shelby and team failed and should face repercussions. I highly doubt she's the only one in her distances or even on Bowerman playing in the gray area, but that's just my opinion.

Fair point....but if it wasn't a regular visitor/local/known/reputable all the more reason not to use it?

who here is doing that?



this is such a flawed argument that gets repeated not infrequently. it's boring.

To your point U.S. Track & Field in general has a huge doping problem, reaching back decades. Most notably in the sprinting and field events (It's just been a week or so since reigning Olympic gold medallist Brianna McNeal got a 5-year ban), but not hard to believe it could cross over into the middle (or long) distances.

And beyond that elite track & field worldwide is looking more and more like it's a giant pharmaceutical trial.

I'm a road cyclist, fer chrissakes, and I'm blushing looking at all these track athletes.

I'm not saying it was a smart decision, if that's even how it went down at all

I - for one - very rarely order anything but chicken or beef from a food truck [other than an occasional lamb gyro]; pork carnitas for instance = nope, sorry

ETA: What did Matt Centrowitz order? Aren't/weren't they a couple? Was his test clean?

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Something stinks over at BTC. They had an incredible run of form last year in team track meets. Everyone assumed it was the super shoes and the team culture.

The BTC ladies have really struggled this year to find the kind of form they had last fall. Maybe there was an internal memo to stop eating the pork?

What is interesting it appears that she could have competed at the trials if they had not argued for an expediated case. I am not sure if asking for expediated case is an indication of innocence or not.

But if you feel they are innocent then isn't it a good look to mention their innocence, as you are sticking your neck out for them? And then if they say nothing, others will use it as evidence of the persons guild. It is lose-lose for them.

Any scientific studies specifically performed to detect nandrolone after consumption of contaminated meat will have a sampling strategy specifically designed to detect the maximum value in something that is transient. I'm more familiar with doing studies in drug development where plasma conc is measured in samples taken at specific time intervals, but i expect the studies require collection and testing of all urine samples for a specific time after ingestion in order to be certain of having the sample with the maximum concentration, whenever that may be. With any random sample all we get is a snapshot in time. Of course it is possible this is the time when the concentration in urine was at a max......but it in most cases it isn't going to be. So to go to a study where subjects deliberately ate contaminated (boar) meat and point out that the random sample/snapshot was in the range of the max values seen in the study is a bit of a stretch. Would have to be unlucky.

i haven't looked at the specific multi-level test in detail but the experts may be able to discern more than a urine conc and endogenous/exogenous from the data, even if the decision making criteria don't allow them to use it for AAF/No AAF decisions, and that information may indicate a non-oral source.

The amount quoted in all of the articles which comes from her posts is 5ng/ml. At the time most of the articles were written the Athletics Integrity Unit had not released her name and sanction. It has now been posted under "latest sanctions" https://www.athleticsintegrity.org/

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

almost totally agree with you, but: doesn't the fact that nandrolone lingers longer in the body (wait - is that a fact? w/r/t elimination half-life?) somewhat increase the odds that you'd still be at "high" (if not "max") values for a longer window, which in turn increases the odds of one of your drug tests falling when you're at high conc?

it's still pretty long odds, as these things go, unless perhaps she was tested, say, 50 times last year.

ETA: this is totally besides her presumed guilt or innocence, i'm just trying to think through this as a stats problem . . .

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Would be interested to read the CAS decision, but it is not yet on their website and they never list her as an active hearing. Sort of strange.

can only see plasma profiles for IM injections online - which are designed to last several days through gradual absorption from the depot. I've seen references that the elimination half-life is about 4h but haven't found an actual study report.

Nothing much on drugs@fda.gov as none of the approved products are oral - and the brands have discontinued (common when the whole market goes generic) so labels (which typically include pk) and data used to support approval are harder to find.

Maybe it was multiple burritos

Like The Chipotle Challenge

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

https://academic.oup.com/...le/90/5/2624/2836761

Oral exposure via contaminated supplements seem to clear in about 6d according to this paper. This seemingly would assume that supplements are more than a single contaminated meal and would have time to get to a reasonable serum level.

Seems to me that steroids ain't cheap, so using them in animals is just not worth the ROI
I doubt the tainted meat thing.

Thanks for the huge lunch time (no meat) laughs.

yeah, interesting point - scientifically, if you don't know whether you're testing for oral or IM use, it's sort of hard for your results to be meaningful . . .

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

From "Doping in Sport: Global Ethical Issues"
4. Reliance on Science (of nandrolone, in the body and of qualities)
"Dr. Wheeler, from St Thomas' Hospital, London is quoted as saying that there is evidence that after a competitive event or hard training, nandrolone levels go up above the limit. Nandrolone can also easily enter the body through contaminated hydrating substances or through contaminated meat; and legal dietary supplements are broken down by the body to produce the same substances when nandrolone is broken down in the body. Also, nandrolone traces can persist within the body for up to 12 months."
"One ruling in 1999 of the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne supports these misgivings and said that, despite the WADA ruling that 4 nanograms of nandrolone per millilitre of urine should be the limit, 2 to 5 nanograms was a 'grey area', and that such a level could be the result of endogenous production of the human body.' [38] Such findings suggest that too strict an application of the rules might well result in injustice, and to avoid it we need to be as sure as we can rely on the science behind the rules."

Food truck was probably owned by Nike.

Centro is so 2018.

It's interesting to note that she was caught by the AIU (track and field) and NOT USADA. It's also interesting that she was tested 16 times by USADA in 2020. USADA scaled back testing in 2020 due to Covid, but still 16 times is significant. So either she knew her USADA test schedule, USADA sucks at testing, or USADA might be covering, because you don't just start shooting up steroids on a whim. It would be interesting to know the date of her last USADA test.

Jacked? Wow, you guys have a warped sense of what jacked is. LOL. She looks exactly like every other female distance athlete on Bowerman.

https://images.app.goo.gl/91bohfwztTX5nbxDA

she may be guilty as sin. probably is. but to place this in perspective, i think the threshold is 2ng/ml. here is a study where an eyedrop solution was administered to volunteers, and then testing was done, and the urine concentration of nadrolone was 450ng/ml.

so, i don't know anything about her case at all. i know what i'm reading in this thread. but if your post is meant to show how heavily she was doped, because she tested at double the threshold, that number would have been 4ng/ml, which is 1/100th the concentration of what was seen in this test i reference. i believe dieter baumann's result was 10x or 20x the threshold (he vociferously denied doping), and as we see it's pretty easy to get a result 100x the threshold, so 2x the threshold seems pretty low, esp for women, who have been shown to generate endogenous nandrolone.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Endogenous production results from a reaction involving testosterone. From a brief search, it seems the only detectable nandrolone in women involved pregnancy. (but further search could prove me wrong)

In men, it's detectable, but also as far as I can tell, it'd be rare to have a level above the threshold limit. Even in elite athletes.

The combination of those two things seem to me it'd be unlikely that it was endogenous. But she could undergo testing to see if she's a unicorn-type endogenous producer. Which if one existed, it might not be surprising to find them in elite athletics.

my post was meant to by hyperbolic rhetoric but also:


i am operating under the assumption that consumption and resultant digestion of contaminated meat is a more difficult absorption process than a direct vascular transfer of a banned substance...

here, in a snippet from a circular produced by FIFA, it says that some contraceptives women take to delay menstruation contain norethisterone, a nandrolone metabolite that will trigger an adverse finding. i also think pregnancy can generate an AAF for nandrolone, which would qualify as endogenous production. i may ask around about her case.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Imagine if Lebron James or Tom Brady got caught using roids?

The fact that elite cyclists and runners are still getting caught is a great thing.

It means that some of the elite contestants are probably clean.

Last clean pro football or basketball player - some unknown from the 1970s.

Hammer Nutrition, Ltd. sued by endurance athletes from Australia, United States, and Canada, claiming positive steroid tests cau (spencelawyers.com)

it is what Rebekah Keat was popped for from tainted supplements.

i have no interest in any of this per se but the Qs is why did CAS deny the appeal? Their release is yet to come. And where is WADA? It reads like from her press release WADA suggested the hair samples are a mitigating factor showing contamination probability vs. consistent use of the drug. But this case judiciary is Athletics Integrity Unit (AIU).

I would be more inclined to believe a 'tainted supplement/reduced sentence' defense than I am pork/don't know what nandrolone is defense. But what i believe doesn't really matter. What i think does is my 2 Qs above for future protection of clean athletes. Where is CAS? and where is WADA?

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@rhyspencer

IMHO, Infeld, Gwen and Karissa don't look quite like this.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B2jj4D_BGaG/

Not true. This is the fundamental issue at play. Andy Froncioni’s proposal is the solution that leverages the human factor.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Pregnancy doping?

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

i'm not surprised you feel as though that's the fundamental issue at play.

I don't really compare the two. Athletes in some pro sports have implicit agreements with each other and fans. So it's not really cheating anymore since the reasonable expectation of cleanliness is absent. You play in the NFL, you know what you're getting into. Just don't be dumb about it (like a few athletes are every year).

In Olympic-type sports we still try to maintain the appearance of adhering to The Code. Maybe that's eroding a bit, so that in some sports it's effectively a free-for-all.

What, human nature?

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

marathoners vs. 800 meter / 1500 meter runners. that's like saying Rupp should look like Centro.

She's obviously very lean, and has greater muscle mass. Here's a crazy thought. Some women have more muscle and less body fat than others. It's called genetics. Secondly, if you think those waifs don't have food issues, you are kidding yourself.

Here's the greatest Olympic gold medal winner in history (XC skiing). I suppose she must be doping too.

the fundamental issue at play is that (one of) the best distance runner in america popped a positive, and asserts that it was tainted meat. and that neither she nor her coach have ever heard of nandrolone.

Here is something to think about... Colleen Quigley left the BTC team a few weeks ago in protest.

No man, that was four months ago now. I understand that in the pandemic era time is a fictional construct.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

It seemed like it was "protest" related to money.

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"one eye doubles my eyesight, so things don't look half bad" John Hiatt

in the case of the former, would the contraceptives then be on the banned list? and this turns into a 'starky redux' case of the athlete not vetting their (legal) drugs carefully enough? or would the contraceptives still be totally fine, and their (occasional) production of dodgy metabolites simply an unfortunate side-effect that's readily cleared up with a doctor's note?

in the case of a pregnancy, that too would (surely!) be an easy one to clarify . . .

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

not asserting tainted meat. it's merely conjecture on their part because they have provided no evidence that she actually had a burrito from that truck and that meat from that truck was tainted. this is the defense you use when you have no defense.

she also rolled the dice by asking for an expedited hearing and fighting hard so now her career is basically over because she is out of paris too. she would have been better off being honest and repentant to get the typical light ban of max a year and then have paris to shoot for.

Shelby and her team are, in fact, asserting that her positive is the result of tainted meat.

from the horse's mouth:

In the following 5 days after being notified, I put together a food log of everything that I consumed the week of that December 15th test. We concluded that the most likely explanation was a burrito purchased and consumed approximately 10 hours before that drug test from an authentic Mexican food truck that serves pig offal near my house in Beaverton, Oregon. I notified the AIU that I believed this was the source.

she's just guessing with language like that because she had no other defense. she didn't even provide evidence that she ate from a food truck that day. why would tex-mex food truck selling burritos be dumping pig offal (which is all of the junk leftover from the pig, like brains and lungs) into a burrito? it's simply not credible but she can't claim it came from a beef, chicken, fish or veggie burrito (the kinds that normal people order). just one loaded up with leftover pig guts.

The Letsrun link says they have "a receipt [from the food truck] and iPhone locator data to back up her explanation"

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

That's literally what asserting means.

Was it tex-mex or "authentic Mexican" per the post you responded to?

Tex-mex, almost no chance. But *authentic* Mexican food certainly. Real Mexican barbacoa or cochinita pibil can easily involve almost the whole dang animal. Even carnitas, per RandMart above. I don't know how likely it would be that a Beaverton food truck would be serving authentic Mexican. I could see it in, say, some 'hoods in Los Angeles for sure. If it were authentic it wouldn't be hard to track down, as it'd be upscale (it's way more labor intensive to make authentic Mexican food than just grill meat American-style).

Excuse me but isn't all those leftover bits just ... sausage? Or Scrapple, if you're in PA?

'Cuz you never know what's in that shit

So maybe it was a pork carnita with sausage?

I'm not taking her side, just wondering what the menu may have been

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

This has to come up quite a few times from various people on here, other mediums etc and I am choosing to respond to this one for no rhyme or reason.

I don't think it is that uncommon for an athlete to NOT know about Nandrolone. What always amazes me reading comments on here, Youtube, other places is how much some people seem to know about doping. It is like, how the F*** do they know all this. The average pro who isn't doping really doesn't know a lot. On a personal level I was happy to educate athletes on the best tires to use in triathlon or why the lead vehicle was important, but ask me about doping and I would really only know EPO, T, HGH for quite a while. Then maybe Clen or Ostarine as it got some press in triathlon. I knew when traveling to Mexico not to eat meat. But beyond that very little and I was double T crosser, double I dotter. Athletes who don't dope, just don't know much. I always think back to Andy Potts riding Gatorskins in Kona. WTF would the best chance at a US Kona win ride Gatorskins. This is a professional we are talking about it. This is an Olympian. People give pro athletes way too much credit for their wide breadth of knowledge.

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my understanding is that the birth control product(s) we're talking about actually are allowed per the WADA code. here's a WADA technical sheet, and i don't know if its guidance is current or not. my understanding is that in this case, if you're using this birth control method, your threshold is now 10ng/ml, which means shelby would have been safely inside the threshold with her 5ng/ml (that's what was reported by somebody in this thread). however, i can only assume she was not on that drug or else she'd not be subject to a ban.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

What's the one where they boil the whole head?

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

i totally agree with your overall point about giving pros too much credit.

BUT.

riding gatorskins in kona is NOT a career ender.

knowing about PEDs IS.

Is anyone thinking what I am thinking? Eat a burrito, dope....if I get caught I can blame it on the burrito. A pre-planned alibi would not surprise me, people who dope are diabolical.

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______________________________________________

I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...

the WADA technical doc was updated 2 years ago. Clarification purposes only.

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/td2019na_final_eng_clean.pdf


the footer on page 1 lumps consuming offal of non-castrated pigs in the "endogenous" path for assessing the results, which would elevate the limit of the 19-NA metabolite to 15 mg/ml - no AAF.....and no ban.


seems like the GC/C/IRMS test has shown the source was exogenous (if it was 5ng/ml)....so the BTC defense has already been tested and come up short.

Cabeza (Tacos de Cabeza).

There are a bunch of different Mexican dishes that use a bunch of different pork products.

These dishes are available every where there are Mexicans.
And there are definitely Mexicans in Oregon!

American super-markets that cater to Mexican customers will have access to pork products of Mexican origin.

In short- Shelby's explannation is plausible.

That is probably why she chose it.

One element that I find somewhat implausible is the reference to uncastrated boar meat as having especially high levels of steroids.

Well, yes!!!
That's why that meet smells horrid, and is rarely used.

But it would not surprise me if this meat found it's way into some spicy Mexican dishes.

An athlete that has been testes how many times falls for the old tainted burrito trick? And then after getting caught googles "the tainted burrito" and assumes that THAT must be the culprit and has never heard of Nandrolone?

Sure........

It always has to be the far fetched reason because the common sense version just can't ever be the real reason. "Hey Lance care to comment".....................never mind.

Thanks

No doubt I learned of that one from Anthony Bourdain [the Tijuana episode, most likely]

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

The case against Houlihan:
1) She is one of the best athletes in a sport where athletes regularly get caught doping, and where doping helps.
2) She tested positive for a banned substance.
3) She looks like she has been taking steroids (more so than her competitor's).
4) Unusual performance jumps.


There are perfectly legitimate reasons why each of these pieces of evidence is not conclusive in and of itself.
(Including the tainted pork argument).

But taken together, the probability of Houlihans innocence seems very low.

Let's say it's all a very unlikely coincidence-
that Shelby is actually innocent.

It is true- unlikely coincidences do happen!!!
Sometimes!

But a perfect testing system and appeals process doesn't exist.

There will always be a small number of incorrect rulings.

At some level this is not different from any other career ending accident?
Maybe Shelby is 99% responsible.
Maybe only 5% (for eating questionable meat).

I guess it's all fair in love and war.

so it seems like you have a 2ng, 10ng, 15ng, threshold depending on what thing you did (take a birth control pill; eat a wild boar). the only thing that i find hard to swallow is the notion that neither she nor the coach had ever heard of nandrolone, since so many T&F athletes got popped for it. surely the coach heard of it. that said, i always thought that this was the stupidest bust, which makes me think in a lot of cases it was inadvertent. street tacos i doubt. but i also doubt she was dumb enough to take nandrolone. i suspect there might be a 3rd explanation. this is why, if i'm a pro, i just don't take supplements, that is, i don't put scoops of white powder in my smoothies.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

This is probably good advice for everyone not just pro-athletes.

A Typo for the Ages

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Yes, but it would still be coming from castrated pigs. Nandralone is found in non-castrated pigs. The amount of non-castrated pigs just like non-castrated cows that enter the general food supply is minimal.


Ok, three is a red herring. This is mostly based on people perceiving Shelby as less attractive. Not sure what your or everyone elses deal is, but this is uncalled for. But hey I'm sure I'll see plenty more like it. She looks as lean as the rest of her teammates.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Also non-castrated pork smells and tastes bad.

That said, I would guess that the right combination of spices could cover that up.

The Mexican supermarkets where I live definitely carry many products that are from outside "the general food supply."

Here is what my comment would be:
It is quite amazing that you guys came upon a plausible (albeit unlikely) explanation so quickly.
And to think you didn't even know what nandralone was!!

The burrito power-up on Zwift has suddenly taken on a whole new meaning.

According to the latest Let's Run piece she didn't even eat Pork. She actually ate Carne Asada. I tend to believe based on my limited knowledge of the situation that some supplement she was using was tainted and she didn't know. Again, with my limited knowledge of doping and what others have written, my question would be why would she use the item in question and for what benefit given her sport. Seems there would be better things to be taking. If she is a systematic doper, microdosing on a whole bunch of things carefully (explaining large jumps in performance), it is likely that she was simply popped by something she wasn't managing, ie some tainted supplement and in that case it was just bad karma for her.

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Who orders "an extremely dry" carne asada burrito from an "Authentic Mexican Food Truck"?

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Who gets a receipt from a food truck? Almost makes it less credible....

I eat real mexican food everyday (in san diego, hole in wall places). Why am I not running sub 15min 5k? :)

But you do get the runs.

And to let all you Witchunters know, her coach is sure she is innocent. He pointed to when she refused to wear carbon-plated spikes, even though they legal, in a race in 2019 to prove how good she could be on her on two legs. She came in 4th.

Isnt Nandralone the same drug top sprinters were caught , Ben Johnson?

FloTrack youtube has interviews from Houlihan, Flanagan, and Schumacher. All seem very believable, but I find extremely hard to believe they never heard of Nandralone?


Ben Johnson was caught with Stanozolol in his system after an In Competition Test after the 100m Final at the 1988 Olympic Games.

Ben later admitted to be part of an elaborate Steroid Program, under his Coach Charlie Francis, but that he had no idea how the Stanozolol got in him (that's not what he had been using Ben has long claimed)

As for the Houlihan situation - it's very confusing, but following the typical pattern that these situations take on. Athlete denies everything. Comes up with a Story - that often ranges from plausible to hair-brained! We have heard them all! The tainted meat story is starting to get old. However, there are a VERY small number of false positive tests that do happen. But this particular situation has already gone to appeal (while completely under wraps and in secret), and she lost! We know none of the details of this. Cyclist Phil Gaimon*, speculated in a Twitter thread that, often there are tell-tale signs and trends in the ongoing testing that an athlete like this gets - she probably is subject to very regular Out of Competition testing and In Competition testing.

* https://twitter.com/.../1404844866266230784


Looks like the whole of her Peer Group of athletes has come to her defense - making the situation even more confusing.

Not sure what to make of it all.

Also with Phil Gaimon's post, he points out the differences between when an elite/pro runner tests positive and a pro cyclist - at this same level. There does seem to be a difference in public reaction. I sense that a great number of people in the running community are still living in denial that doping is going on in high performance middle and long distance running! (Ditto in triathlon!)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

The truck itself may have the receipt, not her. Not defending this defense at all, just pointing out what I think they are referring to.

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Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4

According to the latest Let's Run piece she didn't even eat Pork. She actually ate Carne Asada. I tend to believe based on my limited knowledge of the situation that some supplement she was using was tainted and she didn't know. Again, with my limited knowledge of doping and what others have written, my question would be why would she use the item in question and for what benefit given her sport. Seems there would be better things to be taking. If she is a systematic doper, microdosing on a whole bunch of things carefully (explaining large jumps in performance), it is likely that she was simply popped by something she wasn't managing, ie some tainted supplement and in that case it was just bad karma for her.


FWIW - the IOC in cooperation with WADA and a large group of leading & top Sports Scientists and Researchers, publishes every 2 years or so this massive guide on what athletes who are competing at the highest level in sports need to know about, what they are eating and drinking, supplement usage etc . . If you are competing at this level, it's must read stuff. I've skimmed through it a couple of times and it essentially concludes that there are VERY few OTC supplements, that can really help performance. But we know many high-performance athletes pop these like candy. They do run a moderately high risk of pricking up a positive test, because it's a completely un regulated business, and there is a lot of cross contamination. Final conclusion - you don't really need to be taking any supplements if you are eating a well rounded diet.

There are some things that are still legal that might work, but you really should be taking these under the supervision and guidance of a medical doctor

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

She's looking less credible. The court of arbitration for sports "...unanimously determined that Shelby Houlihan had failed, on the balance of probability, to establish the source of the prohibited substance."

Link to official media statement from CAS: https://www.tas-cas.org/...dia_Release_7977.pdf

I have a lot of respect for a professional track & field athlete who is so completely clueless to the world around them that they claim to have 'never heard of nandrolone'. It's like Einstein getting lost in thought on his way home from the post office. Kind of a cute story, but probably not true.

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***

as i wrote above, it's proximity. when the athlete is a friend or close colleague - assuming you have a good opinion of the athlete's ethics - you don't believe the athlete dopes, cuts courses, whatever. when you don't know the athlete, then you're much more likely to assume the athlete did *it*. it's certainly that way in tri and running.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Never heard of nandrolone? GTFO 😂😂

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What's your CdA?

You don't know how to order...
"hey, give me one of those $500 burritos?" *wink* *wink*

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What's your CdA?

Fleck that is a very good point. Was it bought via credit card or the now rare cash purchase? If CC, the truck should have a copy they can match to the CC. Even then, if they really knew it was a soul destroying, life destroying event that just happened, wouldn't you trace the meat supplier & interview them & see what the real situation with the animal was (shot up, castrated or whatever the claim is with it) and try to add to the evidence of no foul play?

Also, who was with her--do the stories match up when in separate rooms interviewing them (not sure how CAS actually works so just throwing that out there if they do that with witnesses). Did they get another burrito just like it and have it tested to present as evidence from the same lot of meat delivery, and is there any in a freezer somewhere with the same packing lot number they could test?

We should also keep in mind any Olympic medals or commercial build up, support to the team and by other companies to these athletes really means the meal ticket to their future of being retired younger, future speaking engagements, graduation speeches, TV and talk show appearances, product sales....just their salaries and equipment supplies the rest of their contracted periods, buying a house or not having to go back to the "work world environment" any time soon....ALL that is at risk so some may take that risk and willingly do it. There is also the reputation and existence of BTC and Nike, the coaches and the continued programs for future Olympians who can repeat that same revenue generator if they are successful enough by winning a gold, silver or bronze medal. I can totally see someone making that kind of a decision and keeping it quiet at any cost. We only need to look at cycling to see what lengths they will go to in order to win. I would say anyone remotely close to her as far as competition (close being subjective of course) should be scrutinized because we have one that now was popped. The team is saying she is 100% innocent. Unfair. How do they know? What is their proof? We have scientific proof she did it--they have nothing but redirection of a flawed system and talk/opinions. My mind has changed on this the last 24 hrs the more I read about it...

Perhaps they should locate and interrogate the eaten pig's family. I'm sure Porky would love to give credible testimony. Was it a Hello Pig Order?

Expense account. I have receipts from most of the meals I've had in the last 13 days, including from 2 food trucks in Tulsa this past weekend...

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"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

If she paid electronically it is very credible. I am on the fence as we don’t know enough facts, but my BS detector is activated.

Which would lead one to believe that unless all the coaches and managers are total fools they would know this. And these athletes would not be taking OTC supplements, or any chemicals, other than exactly the chemicals the coaches and trainers want them to be taking.

Which would mean the "tainted supplements" excuse is basically a bunch of BS, the athletes probably were systematically doping, not taking useless supplements that would risk a positive test for likely no performance benefit.

All it's going to show is that she ate at the truck, not what she ordered. To have any chance at CAS she would have had to show not only that she ate at the truck, but there was strong evidence that the particular meal she consumed was contaminated (which she didn't do).

With the contaminated supplement positives athletes can't just say "I took a supplement and sometimes they are contaminated." They have to prove that the specific supplement that they took (the unused portion, or unopened product from the same production run) was contaminated with the specific substance they tested positive for. Even then they usually get a reduced sanction, not off scot free.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

Absolutely. The "she looks unnatural" argument is highly subjective and not really anything I would consider evidence, especially based on an Instagram post of all things. Maybe when it comes to bodybuilding, but we're not exactly at that level- she's a track runner, and when you see unstaged photos of her running she looks pretty comparable to her peers.

Also- she doesn't look like that photo. Nobody looks like their photos.
I'm a 20-year old woman with a working knowledge of Instagram. I can make myself look pretty shredded if I want to, and I have nowhere near her bodyfat levels, training history, or professional motivations/resources to make myself look marketable as an athlete. (The latter of which tends to be disproportionately important when it comes to women.) Your personal opinion on what you think she should look like based on what she probably doesn't actually look like isn't exactly the damning conclusion some people make it out to be, and I don't think it's valid grounds for deciding someone's morality or intent.

x2. i learned what nandrolone was when i read about it in triathlete magazine at the age of . . . i dunno, 17? everyone and their dog was getting busted for it.


side note: that perhaps argues for houlihan's innocence here. nandrolone is an old-fashioned drug that's easy to test positive for. surely nike's athletes (per victor conte) have access to a much more sophisticated buffet of cutting-edge stuff? in other words, if she was going to dope (and test positive), it wouldn't be with nandrolone . . .

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

I don't think the potential response of getting another burrito and testing, etc would have been realistic. I don't know what the turnaround on these drug tests are, but I do know that it's not instant, and I would imagine that it would take at least a few days between testing and communication of bad results to the athlete. By which time I'm sure that set of meat delivery has been used up or tossed. And do food trucks keep records of which meat suppliers were used for which meals?

Like most underhand dealings unless you are dealing directly with a doctor and pharmacy then you have no idea really what you are injecting. She may have been using something a little more sophisticated but been given a bogus batch of old school deca..

https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/product-safety-information/steroid-hormone-implants-used-growth-food-producing-animals


FDA Approves the use of steroids for Beef production.

She paid on a credit card, used apple pay, etc. That's not that unbelievable. I don't believe I've used cash at any of the food trucks I've visited this year.

--- Unrelated to the above ---

I thought this was interesting - https://www.letsrun.com/...rack-field-tragedy/:

"Greene believes that pork offal is the only logical source of the nandrolone. If it did not come from the pork, he says, there are two ways it could have entered her body: an injection or via an oral supplement. The AIU conceded that it was not injected. If it had been, traces would still have remained in her system by the time of her next test on January 23 — which she passed. That leaves only the oral supplement, a method Greene says an athlete would have to be “a moron” to employ because, when ingested that way, the nandrolone leaves the body within 24 hours.
“To catch someone taking an oral steroid [and find a concentration] under 15 ng/mL, the window of detection is less than an hour. They couldn’t identify one time it’s ever happened. They kept saying how unlikely it was that she could have eaten boar. It’s more unlikely that they would have caught her this way…You can look at nandrolone cases. All the studies — go read them, they’re all publicly available — it’s all injectables…This was a purely theoretical determination.”

I bolded four words -- for some reason they reminded me of the George Burns quote (which I am sure I am mangling): "The secret to success is sincerity -- once you can fake that you have it made." ;)

Greene also said that Shelby ordered a CARNE ASADA (steak) burrito the night before the failed test. So not only did she get the wrong meat in her burrito, it had high levels of nandrolone and she didn't notice it wasn't steak she was eating or she didn't care.

Which would lead one to believe that unless all the coaches and managers are total fools they would know this. And these athletes would not be taking OTC supplements, or any chemicals, other than exactly the chemicals the coaches and trainers want them to be taking.

Which would mean the "tainted supplements" excuse is basically a bunch of BS, the athletes probably were systematically doping, not taking useless supplements that would risk a positive test for likely no performance benefit.


The claim that they don't really know what's going on, is a bit bogus my view. The IOC, WADA, and National Sports Federations go out of their way to tell and inform athletes of all of the risks of taking supplements, of any kind. Even if they say they are "clean" - you can't really trust them.

I know in Canada whenever you make it to the national Team Level in a sport you are handed a guide-book that's as thick as a Bible about all the do's and don'ts if you are an athlete at this level. It outlines VERY clearly all the responsibilities of things like Where-Abouts, TUE's etc . . and goes into great detail about what you eat and consume and how you need to be very careful about just about everything you put in your mouth. So for an athlete or a coach to claim that they don't know what's going on, or they are not sure about something . . . then they have ignored some or all of the information that has been provided to them.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Nope, you nailed it

I think I've also heard that attributed to Groucho, but they both stole it from some French dude; the same one who said "Only the mediocre are always at their best."

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jean_Giraudoux

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

"Greene believes that pork offal is the only logical source of the nandrolone. If it did not come from the pork, he says, there are two ways it could have entered her body: an injection or via an oral supplement. The AIU conceded that it was not injected. If it had been, traces would still have remained in her system by the time of her next test on January 23 — which she passed. That leaves only the oral supplement, a method Greene says an athlete would have to be “a moron” to employ because, when ingested that way, the nandrolone leaves the body within 24 hours.
“To catch someone taking an oral steroid [and find a concentration] under 15 ng/mL, the window of detection is less than an hour. They couldn’t identify one time it’s ever happened. They kept saying how unlikely it was that she could have eaten boar. It’s more unlikely that they would have caught her this way…You can look at nandrolone cases. All the studies — go read them, they’re all publicly available — it’s all injectables…This was a purely theoretical determination.”

To me this sounds like an explanation on the best way to micro dose Nandrolone to minimize getting caught in a test.

I’m not really surprised with either. If you look at what has happened with some non-sport professionals and how they got blasted by everyone it’s not worth the risk so you pay more attention to it. The last thing I would want for myself is to accidentally take something that I wasn’t paying attention about at nationals/worlds and all of sudden test positive and have that spread everywhere. Especially when a google search is almost always part of the hiring process now.

In some ways, and maybe it’s because i’m not a pro athlete, I think it’s worse to get busted as an amateur. You get the why the hell would this person cheat just to win a medal, what else are they cheating on. Where a lot of people, not here obviously, but in the general public, brush off sports doping as everyone is doing it that person just got caught or whatever reason they have.

No

No one is thinking that

We are all honest people here [except those with double letters in their user names, who are considered suspect]

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

It's entirely possible I'm missing something by why is using the doping method that leaves your system quickly the choice of 'a moron' rather than the method that is detectable for over a month?

ETA what I did miss was that Fishhawk21 had already made this point.

Exactly, but he should feel free to load up on Doba burritos and them try to use that excuse when he pops hot.

I can smell the bullcrap from here. She was micro dosing and knows it. Carne Asada...Lol

You're not a green goopy susbtance that bounces all over the place and even makes cars fly that was discovered by Professor Brainard? ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyPqOt_Pgiw

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

bu rr ito
o ff al

The athlete specifies the testing window each day. They don't know what days they will be tested but know when they will be tested. Otherwise it would be impossible for the testers to find the athletes, through no fault of the athletes. Athletes are also busted for whereabouts violations as well and I think 3 of them in a year results in the same punishment as a doping positive.

The other explanation could be that it was a Floyd Landis situation where maybe she was blood doping and her blood happened to be contaminated.

Cheapeau. I lol'ed.

Of course, we know apmoss has no credibility

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

I hadn't thought about the blood transfusion thing. I thought that they could detect that now?

Anyhow, I had to ask myself, how stupid would you have to be to get caught? We know she took a pill. We know that pill is only detectable for like 24 hours in a test. So why answer the door at 6-8am when the testers knock if you took the pill the day before? Why NOT just take a whereabouts failure (unless this would take her to 3 missed tests and trigger a suspension)?

Unless she:

1. took the pill well outside the 24 hour buffer, and assumed if would not be detected
2. passed previous tests while "glowing"
3. previous positives were protected by USADA / Nike (conspiracy theory ala Lance and the UCI)
4. could not take another whereabouts failure / roommate opened door to testers and she couldn't escape (meaning she had gone rogue and was doping behind BTCs back)
5. she had no idea she consumed any Nand

I have so many questions LOL!

All I know is that I live in Beaverton and I'm getting BURRITOS this weekend!

Need to do a 1500m before and after.

I'd guess it's simply a credit card statement showing the charge.

Not too soon after though, things could get messy.

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--------------------------
The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody

I saw the "receipt from a food truck" excuse as well. I don't have the receipt from a nice restaurant my wife and I went to the other day (they are finally open where I live for patio dining!) so the fact that she goes and keeps one from a food truck certainly indicates to me that she was planning for this type of defense just in case she got caught .....

Never realized olympic level athletes were eating burritos from food trucks. New high performance diet??

honestly, i think this is a dead end you guys are pursuing. there's plenty of room for skepticism here, but a lunch receipt ain't it.

say she paid with her credit or debit card, and now she's got a line item on her statement. or she paid with her phone and has an electronic receipt. or not - she paid cash and kept the receipt because she's a methodical person or wants to claim it on her taxes or whatever.

really, i just don't think this is the right line of attack.

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Food truck server asks "You want a receipt?"
Not paying much attention, SH instinctively says "Yeah, sure"


< throws it in the handbag/car/wherever >

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

If athletes can expense food, you bet your arse she is asking for a receipt.

sure it is. it is all part of the ruse she is trying to pull. whether you do or don't think it matters, it all will come out in the wash when the decision is released. my guess is that her facts are going to be embarrassingly bad, and ones of someone who has no good defense, but there's no point speculating because we all will learn in due time what evidence she presented. if you take a step back, this all is sounding more and more ridiculous -- she claims to have decided to order a carne asada burrito from a mobile food truck, which usually is dry, but it came out greasy and smelling different and she decided to eat it anyway and pocket the $8 receipt as well (and, no, burrito dinners are not deductible).

I still don't understand why/motivation from my limited research yesterday. Apparently the only useful form of Nand is injectable. Oral consumption won't get you any benefits because the half-life is way way too short.

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I don't think so. I've heard about autologous transfusion detection being imminent for about a decade now. But I'm not aware that it's directly detectable yet. Though it can be indirectly suggested by plasticizer detection or bio passport anomalies. I'm guessing it's not that hard to get around the plasticizer detection.

Just trying to wrap my head around the entire MO and give some benefit of the doubt. Because it seems so obvious from way out here.

I wonder how many elite athletes just self rationalize and minimize. They don't necessarily think I am going to use THIS substance to give me the last little edge. Instead, thinking diet/nutrition and "supplements" are an integral part of training, which then clouds their judegement into believing they are simply building an optimal regimen. And when they get popped and realize the consequence (which they should have been fully aware of all along), then it is graps at straws time.

Doesn't make it acceptable, just less nefarious.

I don't necessarily disagree with your point but most athletic federations and athletes at the highest level and almost for certain Olympic candidates get some sort of backgrounder if not out and out training from their federation with respect to supplements what to use what not etc. It is inconceivable that someone who is her age and experience at her level could play the I didn't know card. Also all athletic federations and anti doping associations make it abundantly clear that the athlete is responsible for what they put into their body, ignorance is not a defence. That is the price of admission.

I was aware they could detect tranfusions due to anomalies in the bio passport. Which then begs the question why get a blood transfusion IN THE MIDDLE OF DECEMBER when you have no races in the coming weeks?

Look man, I read Tyler's book so I'm sort of an expert on this doping thing (pink font), and it seems like the blood bag thing only benefits right before or during a very hard competition. Not in the middle of the an off season and 10 days before Christmas.

I dunno. None of it makes any sense.

Yeah, I don't know. But it's not really our job to make a story that makes sense. It was her job to provide an explanation. And she didn't provide a very satisfying one. On several fronts.

I'd be a lot more sympathetic if she'd just said, "I have no clue how this got into my body." And didn't claim to not know what nandrolone is (she doth protest too much...)

My two red flags are:

Why would a world class athlete, who would most likely be following a pretty strict diet, eat at a local food truck? I understand "girls just wanna have fun" and you do need a break from the regimen, but ... really?

Not knowing what nandrolone is and what happens if you get detected for it

These fall in the category of "Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining"

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

+1, but who keeps a receipt from a food truck?

I have been thinking about this and I never keep receipts, but I pay everything by CC including food trucks, so I'm not sure how she doesn't have this charge on her CC account as it would be relatively easy to look up unless she paid by cash.

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https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney

Someone who can expense their food. When I travel for work I have to submit receipts for everything food trunk or nice dinner doesn’t matter.

I don’t know how about this. I think a lot of people put these professionals up on the pedestal. They are not perfect nor should they. They don’t always do everything right, the way they “should”, or what is ideal/optimal for top performance. They are humans after all, not machines. I’m sure they like to have a cheat day or 2 just like the rest of us.

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blog

I've been on the road for work most of the last 2 weeks (and hitting the airport again tomorrow). I've got receipts from airport restaurants, fast food joints, 7-11s, hotel restaurants, and yes, even from 2 food trucks this past weekend. Gotta have the receipts if I want to get reimbursed...

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"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

I am surprised no one is discussing this test was by AIU and why?

Was it a tip off or is there evidence to support their concerns?

First interview and she decided to do it with... Fox News:

https://video.foxnews.com/...999001#sp=show-clips

Saw this story on Outside I think. Strange that I feel like I should care one way or another. Not because Shelby is expendable but because there are so many other problems in the world. Of all the problems in the world this is one that is occupying my brain? Part of me thinks I am overinvested in certain things at the expense of others.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Yea, was a train wreck of an interview.

Yeah, not a lawyer but if I had one I wouldn’t be interrupting him. Certainly allow him to carry the message so to speak.

I feel sorry for the food truck being thrown under the bus.

Maurice

Steve Magness just put up this great post:

So... let's go through this quickly. Houlihan tests positive for nandrolone with 5 ng/ml.

They make sure she's not pregnant.

Then because she falls between 2.5 and 15 ng, they run another test (GC/C/IRMS) to see if the nandrolone source is endogenous or exogenous.

The lab says this test showed an exogenous source.

This is where the dispute comes in. Houlihan's team claims it should basically go down the other path of endogenous/inconclusive and ultimately the yellow ATF box.

Why do they claim that?

They claim that she consumed uncastrated boar meat. This is IMPORTANT.

The WADA document states if an athlete ate boar meat and the nandrolone level was below 10, then the GC/C/IRMS test isn't what should be used to determine things, but the "pharmacokinetics of N-19 excretion”

In laymen's terms, boar meat throws off the GC/C/IRMS test to determine endo/exogenous.

So if you ate boar, you don't use that test. Instead, you are supposed to try to determine via looking at the pharmacokinetics of the nandrolone metabolites.

If they go down the pharmacokinetics path, then based on the data/info provided by Houlihan's lawyer, you'd end up in the yellow Atypical finding spot.

Now you can see why boar meat is such an important part. If true, it shifts away from the exogenous test and to an ATF.

The crux of the argument lies in the lab saying it's exogenous/not accepting meat consumption & Houlihan saying meat consumption & should go down other path.

So what?

This is a technical argument based on the procedure.

Houlihan's argument rests on accepting it was boar meat so the GC/C/IRMS (exogenous) test isn't used.

AIU's rests on not being meat-related and thus it's okay to use the GC/C/IRMS test to show its exogenous.

We need to see the full data/reasoned decision to understand more. But, hopefully that brings a touch of clarity on the technical nature of the case and what both sides are arguing.

Sudden big gains + a positive test usually means one thing

Just to be clear, Smith was exonerated by CAS in a trial.

yep - i think a few of the nandrolone positives were. as slowman said above, there were some problems with the testing and thresholds in the early days. that again seems like a good reason to know about it!

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Here's the thing the wada list is sent out and published yearly. Every athlete would and should read it. Nandrolone is listed there in the first category, you don't even need to remember the name exactly because a huge number of the banned anabolic androgenic steroids end in 'one' (testosterone, nandrolone,Androsterone etc) if the letter arrived saying she was positive for nandrolone she and her coach should have known straight up it was an anabolic steroid. Denying they had any idea what it was just makes them look ridiculous.

My reading of the WADA doc is that they have to to the GC/C/IRMS test to determine the isotope ratio if the result is between 2.5 and 15 (not pregnant) and > 15 (pregnant). That has 2 possible outcomes - exogenous or inconclusive/endogenous. The GC/C/IRMS test determines the C13/C12 ratio in the carbon backbone of the steroid, which is ultimately dependent on the plant or lower animal source consumed if formed endogenously in people or pigs......as opposed to nandrolone made in a lab which uses specific plants as the source of the steroid backbone (presumably those rich in this type of structure such as Soy) and has a different C13/C12 ratio as a result of metabolic/chemical pathways within the plants. Pork consumption should result in a endogenous/inconclusive result from the GC/C/IRMS test....which i presume it didn't otherwise this would have been a ATF at worst.

Yep, the simplest is answer is usually the right answer.

This is what I love about ST. Thank you!

New Shoes.

Nothing to add other than this flowchart is awesome !!!

Insane new development: USATF is letting her compete in the trials.

https://twitter.com/.../1405558324783841283

And yet, the Canadian Equestrian Team isn't able to go to the Olympics this year because one of their athletes ingested coca tea while in Peru at the Pan Am games. Surprise, tested positive for cocaine derivative. I mean... come on. Between the chef d'equipe who should've warned the team about this local custom/drink, and the athlete with Olympic dreams who should be super-aware of everything that enters their body, that's just idiotic. What a waste.

wha?

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

There are 6 pages of discussion of this on LR. Crazy

And yet, the Canadian Equestrian Team isn't able to go to the Olympics this year because one of their athletes ingested coca tea while in Peru at the Pan Am games. Surprise, tested positive for cocaine derivative. I mean... come on. Between the chef d'equipe who should've warned the team about this local custom/drink, and the athlete with Olympic dreams who should be super-aware of everything that enters their body, that's just idiotic. What a waste.


Like any population of people the population of elite level, world class athletes who compete at this level has the full range of personalities, behavior types and levels of intelligence found in everyone else. I've been around these people frequently my whole life and I can say that I've met and seen all types and the full range. I think there is a tendency to ascribe superior qualities across the board when someone is truly great at one thing - They are one of the best Show Jumpers in the world, thus they must be super intelligent - as an example. As I'm getting at here, it's been my personal experience and from what we see, this is sometimes NOT the case!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

"If the Trials were in Philly, the crowd would litter the track with burritos"

I'm not disagreeing here

#fuckaround_findout

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Des Linden chimes in: What the actual fuck?

https://twitter.com/.../1405579333775855616

Right when you're like, yes, World Athletics is taking doping seriously...USATF goes naw fam we don't care race all you want.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Quote:

You can always resolve the outcome later, but you can't re-run a race," CEO Max Siegel said

Has this guy ever run the 1500 or 5000? The presence of Shelby utterly changes the complexion of the race. Doping or innocent, but particularly doping. It ain't a time trial.

wow.

I don’t know how about this. I think a lot of people put these professionals up on the pedestal. They are not perfect nor should they. They don’t always do everything right, the way they “should”, or what is ideal/optimal for top performance. They are humans after all, not machines. I’m sure they like to have a cheat day or 2 just like the rest of us.


I've met and been around Age-Group Endurance Sports Athletes who are WAY more rigid and locked down than some of the World Class Athletes I've known over the years.

As I mentioned in a previous post - like any population, you the the full range of types of people among the World Class crowd. Yes - people put them on a pedestal and because they do ONE THING really well - ride a bike really fast - we think they do EVERYTHING at that same level! That is simply NOT the case! Just on the intelligence scale alone, I've known National Champions in my own country who are Mensa/Einstein/PhD level of intelligence and I've known others who, seem to have not even been able to graduate from high school!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

She might very well take an elbow in the ribs, or a few spikes in the ankle

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Dev, the flow chart is from the WADA testing procedure document. - clarifying interpretation of results.

Love this take!

They should hand out 'offal alibi burritos' to all participants.

I would've been watching anyway, but I'm DEFINITELY going to watch now.

Which is, of course, why it's happening.

let's talk about this from a practical perspective. as i understand it, she lost her CAS appeal. she is, officially, banned. if she runs in the trials, she violates her ban, and she probably gets 4 more years tacked onto her current 4. for the CEO of USATF to state this, let alone make it an official policy of USATF, is pretty negligent, according to the only process i know. i think if you were to ask USADA, they'd advise, in strongest terms, against shelby participating in the trials. it would not surprise me if USADA has an official reply to this, because this undermines the Code.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Isn't that pretty much USATF telling USADA, WADA that they don't recognize the CAS verdict?
Or is it just to appease corporate sponsors?

any consequences from the IAAF for those who participate in races against "banned" runners?

Back in the old days when i started racing in the UK just participating in a race against someone banned for being a professional was enough to get a lifetime ban

Going back to the crazy eyes ... there's always a chance she could go Tonya Harding on someone, as well

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

yeah, this is baffling to me on USATF's part. unless:
-there are more pieces of important information about her specific situation that we don't have
-there are nuances/loopholes in the code that we're not aware of
-USATF, as mentioned above, specifically is trying to give the finger to the anti-doping agencies involved in shelby's case (like agencies fighting over jurisdiction in old cop movies)

but absent any more fulsome announcements from any of the players involved my main reaction - everyone's, it seems - is pure bafflement.

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

what i read in the article is that, somehow, you can appeal to switzerland's regular court system if you don't like the CAS result. but unless CAS chose to stay their own arbitration finding - and i've never heard of that happening - then she races in violation of the ban handed down. we all, even as annual members, even as one-day members, agree to USADA's process, and to be governed by the Code, period. if we as individual members agree to this, how much more so those who run our governing bodies.

i do't think the CEO of USATF is giving the finger to the process. i just don't think he understands it. he doesn't understand what it means to accept WADA and USATF jurisdiction. which is pretty fundamental to your job.

if vegas has a line on this, i think it would be worth the bet. there is no way she toes the starting line of the first preliminary race. at some point somebody is going to read the CEO of USATF in on what his job is.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman