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Freestyle Pulling Motion
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Hope you don't mind me jumping in occasionally. The freestyle pulling motion is tricky. You all know or should know about the correct pulling motion for any freestyle swim over 100 meters-the high elbow pull or early vertical forearm EVF. Looking at this picture of Katie Ledecky's arm pulling motion (attached) makes me slightly ill. How does she do it? Or better, why does she do it? The simple answer is to reduce frontal drag, not to increase propulsion, nor for more power.



The correct (distance) freestyle pulling motion requires entering the hands directly in front of the shoulder. Fingers and thumb squeezed together, wrists in alignment with forearms. If the stroke rate is slow enough (hip-driven hybrid technique on the breath side) turn the little pinky down after hand entry, while pushing the hand forward (reduces drag by 6.6% at 2.3 m/sec compared to palm down). When initiating the catch, flip the hand back over to palm down (if you have slow stroke rate) separate the fingers and thumb slightly to increase the effective surface area of the hand. The only two forces that will really help you get faster are downward (lift) and backward (propulsion). Lift forces help reduce drag. Propulsion moves you forward. So press downward with the opened hand while keeping the elbow high, hand just inside the elbow. In other words, try to keep the upper arm as close to your line of motion as possible. This requires internally rotating the shoulder while pressing down. DO NOT INITIATE THE HIGH ELBOW PULL WITH AN OUT SWEEP (which I see all too often among triathletes). The out sweeping hand leads to more frontal drag and less propulsion. As the hand presses down with the elbow up, it will reach a point about a foot or so under the water when it will begin moving backward. Try to push it nearly straight backward, just inside the elbow an inch or two, without allowing it to slip in or IN SWEEP. Do as Aaron Piersol used to say about his pull in backstroke- "Grip it and rip it". How hard you press the hand out the back and rotate the hip on the release depends on which technique you are using. You should only do that with hip-driven or hybrid freestyle techniques. With shoulder-driven technique..which theoretically, most of you should be using since very few of you can really kick fast, focus on getting your propulsion through the front and early back quadrant and then release to get your hand back out in front. You need the higher RPM to make up for your lack of kicking speed and distance per stroke (DPS). Your velocity is Stroke Rate x DPS. BTW, if you want to use higher SR, then you better train more and with higher SR. Otherwise, you won't sustain it.

Here are some things you likely don't know about the pulling motion:

1. Lift and Propulsion forces are mostly from Newtonian mechanics, not Bernoulli effect.
2. Hand must be moving backward relative to the water to generate propulsion
3. Forces directed inward or outward with the hand will make you zig-zag and lose propulsion- not helpful
4. The speed of the hand entry of the recovering arm is directly tied to the speed of the shoulder rotation- both powerful coupling motions for your pull.
5. Therefore, focus on driving the recovering hand and arm hard to the water (fully extended). The fast shoulder rotation comes with it. It is the only BOGO I know of in the sport of swimming. Too many swimmers enter their arms like a modern toilet seat with a spring hinge on it.
6. Recover your elbow to an imaginary string going straight upward from your shoulders. If you get your elbow up to that string, you will be rotating your upper body extremely well.
7. Relax your wrist and hand during the early recovery phase (ascent to the string). It is your only opportunity to chill out during the pulling cycle, so give your arm a chance to recover. Every great freestyler does that. I call it the magic of the relaxed wrist.
8. The arm is a class III lever with a mechanical advantage of about 1/30...in other words, it offers no mechanical advantage to a swimmer
9. By using the high elbow pull, we bring the hand closer to the fulcrum (shoulder joint), increasing the mechanical advantage....but it is still is far less than one, and still offers no mechanical advantage
10. While we may increase the mechanical advantage of the pulling arm with a high elbow pull, getting the hand closer to the shoulder joint, we decrease the biomechanical advantage of the pulling arm with that pulling motion- we use more scapula muscle and less lat and pec muscle, compared to a deeper pull.
11. The deeper pulling motion has a biomechanical advantage but the burden of the increased pulling force required to move your hand through the water and the increased frontal drag caused by the upper arm being more out of alignment with your motion (all occurring in the front quadrant) are not worth the trade. The deeper pulling motion will simply chew you up and spit you out. Leave that one for the sprinters.
12. Learn to pull (and rotate your body) correctly using the one arm drill, fins on, other hand at your side. Until you get the pulling motion right, you won't go much faster
13. Remember that of all the ten (or so) critical distance freestyle techniques that we teach at The Race Club, the highest three in priority are 1. High elbow pull 2. High elbow pull and 3. High elbow pull.

If you want to learn more about the freestyle pulling motion and other swimming techniques, check out our book, Fundamentals of Fast Swimming. You can get it on Amazon, our website or just about any other on line book store. Thanks for allowing me to blog a bit.

Gary Sr.
Last edited by: Slowman: Apr 24, 21 7:30
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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Dear Gary Sr. Thanks for coming in here to ST and providing this free advice. It is greatly appreciated.

How deep down in the water can the elbow be at the front of the catch relative to shoulder as long as you get to EVF?
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for jumping back in here Gary, been awhile. And all of your descriptions make a lot of sense, but the only one that I will now have to discard is the outward sweep it appears. I kind of had a feeling about this when they finally discovered that it was more body roll than hand sweep, that made it appear the hand was moving out/back to center/ then out again. But makes sense to keep the body/hand line tight as possible, and press down right away, not outward.

Thanks again, still using the breathing pattern religiously. Actually it is a requirement at my altitude pool and now 65 years old, can't really remember the breath every stroke pattern other than the first couple 100's when warming up..
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Paul,

It is a game of millimeters. Katie's elbow stays about an inch under the water, but most swimmers (including me) can't get there. As the elbow drops, the propulsion might increase, but so does the frontal drag. In swimming, reducing drag trumps increasing power...on any distance over a 50 meter sprint. Practice on land thinking about pointing your elbow at the far end of the pool as you press down. Get on top of the hand with the elbow. Feels weird, but for drag purposes, the higher the elbow, the better.

Gary Sr.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Glad to help out, Monty. Love that oxygen.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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Almost forgot, we have a great thread going on about the world class triathlete Lucy Charles going on here;

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ic_Trials!_P7495867/

Here is her actual swim and race, have look if you have time and let us know what you think;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcSnmmLp0xE

She obviously comes from a swimming background, but is a perennial 2nd place finisher in Kona the past few years, poised to take the top spot some day soon. But she just swam her Olympic trials in the 1500(British) and nearly won the dam thing, 17/100's off in a final sprint. But my main comment about her great swim was that she breaths every 4th stroke, and how much she was probably losing holding her breath for so long. I mean, even the backwards ladies are still only swimming with an alternate 3 stroke pattern, and most are like the men doing every stroke.

Someone must have told her about the thread, and she answered me back!! Her take on this pattern is that she has trained with it and found it to be optimal, giving up the O2 for the increased hydrodynamic. Personally I think that hydrodynamic has been way overblown, since the 1960's really. And watching top swimmers now, most are breathing every stroke in the 100's even, and I have seen many now use your 3/2 pattern, like Sun Yang and some other distance guys.

I'm not going to argue with her, it would be like giving relationship advice, no one ever listens. But perhaps from someone of your stature, just hinting that perhaps there was at least 17/100's in that 1500 race if she just breathed normally. (-;
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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this is such a helpful post! i did not appreciate the subtle difference between correct evf and getting too much outsweep... which now that i see it helps me better understand the connection to rotation. thanks!
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [buzz] [ In reply to ]
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buzz wrote:
this is such a helpful post! i did not appreciate the subtle difference between correct evf and getting too much outsweep... which now that i see it helps me better understand the connection to rotation. thanks!

I think what he and Monty are saying is the outsweep is not relative to the water, the outsweep is relative to the body, but the body rotation make the outsweep happen but that outsweep is relative to the body. The water sees a straight back pull resulting in less drag.

Imagine a butterfly or breast outsweep relative to body and water. That outsweep is aparent because your chest and belly button are pointing to the floor. Now cut your body in half and have the belly button kind of point to the side wall of the pool. You still do the outsweep, but it is almost straight down (because where chest and bellow button is pointing) right before going into the EVF which now ends up in a lower drag position.

Maybe Gary Sr can comment if I am visualizing this correctly.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Do you or Gary have any videos demonstrating any of this? I really doubt I'm succeeding in imagining what your describing, just by reading the text.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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Nice to see an expert share some tricks.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [tanzbodeli] [ In reply to ]
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Don't be putting me in the same grouping as Gary...I am just a student trying to figure this out.

OK what about this. Lay with your chest on a exercise ball chest down and do a butterfly stroke with just your right arm.
Now do the exact same arm motion with your right arm but this time balance on your right hip

Look at what your arm does relative to the air doing the exact same arm motion but with your body oriented to he side vs oriented flat.

I THINK this is what happens. Its not that the pull is exactly straight back, but once you throw in the body rotation, it is straight back but relative to the body you still have a small outsweep
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [tanzbodeli] [ In reply to ]
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We have a bunch of free videos on Youtube (and Lane 1 on our subscription). Or you can take a deeper dive and subscribe to Lane 2 or Lane 3. Lane 3 now has over 300 videos...many on freestyle technique.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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Dear Gary,


What are your thoughts on the interconnectedness of Scapular / Shoulder mobility and the High Elbow you talk of?


Is not the capacity to achieve the high elbow constrained by shoulder/scapula mobility in conjunction with rotation/timing?



What I have seen with many triathletes is the "limited capacity" as shown above, am not saying this cannot be developed but it way less than swimmers 95% of time. I have observed in good swimmers the point of commencement of High Elbow with their rotation is such that the angle shown above in red is quite closed (extension and retraction).

Triathletes lacking the mobility to internally rotate the shoulder at that High Elbow commencement due to closure of the above angle seem to resolve the only way to address this is by changing the timing of their stroke in relation to their rotation.

Is this an appropriate way to consider the constraints around what you are saying?



Many thanks,


David

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
Last edited by: tilburs: Apr 24, 21 7:56
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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Tilburs, do you think this limitation is something that is specific to triathletes or something that is trainable with enough yards. The reason I say this is because like with any agility sport, eventually you have to morph your body to be able to handle the range of motion for the outer edge of performance in that sport: yoga, golf, tennis, badminton, pole vault, high jump. It does not really matter what the sport is, generally most people can eventually morph their bodies with enough training to conform to the needs of the sport.

Maybe the problem for most anyone trying to get good in any sport that requires range of motion is that there is not enough practice at full range under load. Think of the range of a wide receiver vs most running backs and what they can do in the air with their bodies. But most of that is trained, its not a real limitation. The running back could have likely been equally agile had he trained over time for the position.

I think a lot of the hip, shoulder, arm and neck range of motion needed in swimming is totally trainable with enough pool time. After every lockdown, it has literally taken me 6 weeks just to get range of motion back to get to enough water feel, and this is swimming 7x per week 3-7km per day. But that was to just get back to pre lockdown, not even get ahead.

But some elite swimmer range is kind of like gymnast range in a different way. Some bodies may never get there.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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My experience is also that triathletes are more limited in shoulder and scapular rotational flexibility. They usually cannot get into a good tight streamline position, like most swimmers do. Extension, internal rotation and scapular rotation can all be improved with stretching on a regular basis.

Getting a high elbow like Katie is unlikely for any of us, but getting the elbow higher and upper arm more in alignment with our line of motion is always possible!

Gary Sr.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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An out sweep is just that. The palm turns outward and the hand presses in an outward direction ending up outside of the elbow. it often happens opposite the breath to try to gain more leverage for the rotation..but it can be on either side, or both sides. Most elite freestylers keep the hand just inside the elbow., pressing down then back. From the side, you never see the palms of their hands.

While the hand takes a more circuitous route (from the side) in its path backward, the side to side excursion ( from th frontal view) should be minimal.

Gary Sr
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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Imagine what kind of swimmer Lionel could be if he had accepted the offer to be coached by Gary Sr 5 years ago?.... Could have been a game changer back then.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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The offer still stands! Lionel has or had a bad out sweep.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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gary sr wrote:
The offer still stands! Lionel has or had a bad out sweep.

Can that bad outsweep be reduced by better hip and shoulder rotation (swimming flat like a flier you'll gravitate to doing that because you grab water off to the side with forearm, but with the body rotation being better that hand goes straight down and back and all the grabbing of water happens in line of travel)?
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Paul,

Most swimmers don't even realize that they are outsweeping and it often occurs during the breath with the opposite hand (out of sight, out of mind).

The best device I have found for correcting the out sweep is the ISO paddle made by Finis (we sell on our website, also). Yellow paddle goes on the left hand, gray paddle on the right hand. These paddles have a little curved flange on the side that makes outsweeping more difficult.

Use these paddles with the one arm drill, then swim with them on. Focus on keeping fingers pointed at the opposite end of the pool with wrist straight. Initiate pull by pressing down, not out.

Gary Sr.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [dirtbag] [ In reply to ]
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dirtbag wrote:
Nice to see an expert share some tricks.

expert, eh? what could this gary fellow possibly know about swimming? i mean, this is slowtwitch, after all, and dammit it takes a lot to impress me.

but seriously, it's something i love about this place. i remember having a laugh with simon lessing on here, years ago, when i was a 24-year-old dirtbag living the dream. maybe that's something to celebrate about tri still being relatively "unpopular" - i promise lebron doesn't jump onto the basketball message boards and answer questions there.

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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Good post.

IMO two words, (at least as it relates to AG triathlete onset swimming)

Pectoris minor

Maurice
Last edited by: mauricemaher: Apr 25, 21 12:54
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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I have those mini paddles from hell and I always feel I am cupping with my thumb to keep them from flying off. What am I likely doing incorrectly with them?
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Gary, thanks for jumping on here.

What about the picture of Katie makes you ill? Is it bad form or is it that she’s able to rotate her arm so well that it looks contorted? Or is it something else?

I’m trying to figure out if your ill feeling is criticism or praise.

Jason
Last edited by: Jason AZ: Apr 25, 21 16:41
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [Jason AZ] [ In reply to ]
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It makes me ill that I cannot do it! Like watching a contortionist. Wish I could!!!
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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Coach Dave

One of 2 great points on this thread.

No matter the focus and fancy description of arm/hand/wrist and even finger (really?) as stated, none of that matters when your arm is operating outside of ones functional plane dictated by the scapulas.

(the other great point is a releasing/stretching of pec minor... a major contributor to both awful posture and limited mobility as it relates to scapular angles)

Id be interested in the response to your post. Will keep an eye on it.

Basically when you watch (lionel) or others swim, picture their skeleton ... imagine the movement through the bones. Swimming is about the bones. If those bones are not aligned and functional, then having your thumb next to your pointer finger then moving it after a slight twist to your wrist in the middle of a breath movement doesn't mean shit.

daved

http://www.theundergroundcoach.com
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the post.

Expert contribution is always appreciated.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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Can anyone explain to me in laymans English (I am but a simple man...)

What flexibility is required and what is rotating to get the early vertical forearm whilst having your arm in line with your shoulder (lengthways), assuming I am correctly understanding the Ledecky picture. I assume the shoulder isn't 'hunched and rolled forward' does she have a very high elbow?
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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gary sr wrote:
It makes me ill that I cannot do it! Like watching a contortionist. Wish I could!!!

here is the one part of your post i don't understand:

"8. The arm is a class III lever with a mechanical advantage of about 1/30...in other words, it offers no mechanical advantage to a swimmer"

it seems to me that one of - if not the - prime benefits of early vertical forearm is that you increase your pulling surface. your forearm joins the hand as a pulling surface because it is - well - "vertical." as you note:

"Hand must be moving backward relative to the water to generate propulsion"

if you can present to the water more surface area pulling "backward relative to the water" why is this not also a means to "generate propulsion."

i don't think i'm misunderstanding you, because you make this point separately in your post, and you are explicit. the point of EVF is to: "reduce frontal drag, not to increase propulsion, nor for more power."

i stipulate entirely to all the elements of your post, as regards to the "how to." but i'm not prepared to stipulate to the "why." as you rightly point out, i just love the "grip it and rip it" notion. a lot of emphasis in decades past was placed on arcane technical elements, such as seeing out undisturbed water to pull, when it seems axiomatic to me that the prime job is to place as much surface area as possible perpendicular to the water and then hoist yourself forward and past it.

but it seems to me that what you're saying here is that EVF does not work the way i envision, rather it's only an exercise in hydrodynamics.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Is Gary Sr. suggesting that the body follows in the shadow of the EVF vs the EVF is outside of the body. In both cases you get the full propulsion from the EVF, however, when the body follows in the shadow of the EVF the hydrodynamic drag cumulative exposed to the water is lower. I THINK this is what is supposed to happen. Its not that propulsion goes down much (or if it goes down, its a good tradeoff) its that overall drag from arm+body goes down ?
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan,

There is a mistaken notion globally among coaches and swimmers that much of the propulsion force is coming from the forearm moving backwards. While the forearm does contribute some propulsion resulting in the swimmer's velocity, the overall percentage is small, perhaps on the order of 10%.

The surface area of the forearm may be greater than the hand but the shape of the forearm is quite different. The hand is a flat surface compared to a rounded surface of the forearm. The flow around the forearm is much smoother than the flow around the hand.

Further, the hand is moving backward in the water at a faster velocity than the forearm. The drag caused by the hand or forearm moving backward is proportional to the square of the velocity.

A very simple experiment is to swim with your fists closed. While that does not eliminate the hand, it makes it's shape smaller and rounder. The result is a huge loss of propulsion.

The EVF does likely increase the propulsion coming from the forearm, but that is not why swimmer's do it. Were it not for the lowering of the frontal drag, the loss of biomechanical strength caused from using this awkward, high-elbow motion of pull would not be worth the trade, even with a little boost from the forearm.

Gary Sr.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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The challenge of getting into the EVF position like Katie's is based on the anatomical restrictions imposed by the scapula, shoulder and elbow joints.

Assuming a swimmer rotates the body (shoulders) in freestyle as he or she should, then the arm enters the water in a slightly flexed shoulder joint position. If the objective is to keep the upper arm in the line of motion in order to minimize frontal drag (the upper arm is moving forward in the water until the hand reaches near the shoulder under water), then that involves internally rotating the shoulder and elevating and rotating the scapula (hunching), before flexing the elbow. The challenge is in the elbow joint, which is just a hinge joint.

Since we need to keep the hand surface perpendicular to its backward or downward motion, with the limits of the elbow, we simply can't keep the upper arm perfectly straight during the lift and front quadrant propulsion phases. The closer to the line of motion we can keep it, the better. It doesn't take long (hundredths of seconds) for the big upper arm to put on the brakes in freestyle, once it start sticking out.

Hope this helps. It it makes you feel better, very few people understand the freestyle pulling motion.

Gary Sr.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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gary sr wrote:
Dan,

There is a mistaken notion globally among coaches and swimmers that much of the propulsion force is coming from the forearm moving backwards. While the forearm does contribute some propulsion resulting in the swimmer's velocity, the overall percentage is small, perhaps on the order of 10%.

The surface area of the forearm may be greater than the hand but the shape of the forearm is quite different. The hand is a flat surface compared to a rounded surface of the forearm. The flow around the forearm is much smoother than the flow around the hand.

Further, the hand is moving backward in the water at a faster velocity than the forearm. The drag caused by the hand or forearm moving backward is proportional to the square of the velocity.

A very simple experiment is to swim with your fists closed. While that does not eliminate the hand, it makes it's shape smaller and rounder. The result is a huge loss of propulsion.

The EVF does likely increase the propulsion coming from the forearm, but that is not why swimmer's do it. Were it not for the lowering of the frontal drag, the loss of biomechanical strength caused from using this awkward, high-elbow motion of pull would not be worth the trade, even with a little boost from the forearm.

Gary Sr.

can we just begin by acknowledging the cavernous gap between your knowledge and mine here? i believe in acknowledging professionalism, and honoring it, so i'm not arguing. but i am trying to understand this, which includes working through any gaps in logic or reasoning i can't reconcile.

for one - and i don't mean to be pedantic, and i think it is relevant - i don't see the arm as "moving backward", rather i see everything from the elbow to the fingertip as immobile in the water once presented to the water vertically. you're pulling your body past a sort of "grappling hook" that has anchored itself on the water. at least ideally. it seems to me the more surface you can deploy at that job of anchoring the pulling surface in the water, the less that surface will slip in the water.

i understand the math of this and it's pretty much the same as the math we use in bicycle aerodynamics. and i understand the difference between the shape of the hand and the shape of the forearm. but danged if - when on land - we still face a lot of drag even as we try to make the bike's shapes as aero as possible. i just don't know.

i understand all you're saying and, yes, when i try to swim fists-only i don't do very well. (i don't do very well in any case.) i guess i'm just surprised to hear that EVF is technique that increases propulsion, but to benefit hydrodynamics. i'm not doubting this, just surprised by this.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan, you are not alone in that thinking. Some of the best swimming coaches in the world believe that is what happens, that the hand gets anchored in the water and the body moves past the hand.

That would only happen if we could grab onto a ladder or some immovable object in the pool to pull us forward, which we don't have. In a liquid medium, like water, the propulsion force is only generated by the source moving backward. It MUST move backward relative to the water. The amount of drag that the surface causes moving in the opposite direction determines the amount of propulsion.

The hand moves about 2 feet total distance backward under water during the pulling motion. It enters and leaves the water in nearly the exact same spot, but that does not mean it doesn't move while underwater. It does- forward, downward, upward then forward again, in almost a circular motion. You should read the chapter on the freestyle pulling motion in my book.

On a side note, the propulsion generated by the feet and legs is different because the flow dynamics are different behind the swimmer. The water is essentially still for the hands, but the slipstream forms a current moving behind the swimmer. The feet move almost straight upward forward then straight downward. Since they are moving through the vortices caused by the moving body and the moving feet and legs, they use these vortices to generate propulsion (potentially in four places during a single kicking cycle).
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you - I appreciate your time. I'm going to have a play next time I am in the pool! (and work on my flexibility)
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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gary sr wrote:
A very simple experiment is to swim with your fists closed. While that does not eliminate the hand, it makes it's shape smaller and rounder. The result is a huge loss of propulsion.

Interesting. I regularly do some fist-closed pull sets, as part of a recovery workout nearly every week, and I have noticed that I am not actually that much slower when using closed fists - maybe ~2-3 sec/100yd slower*. Makes me wonder if I'm doing something really wrong, if I'm not maximizing the propulsion that my open hand provides, or maybe ~2-3 sec is a "huge loss of propulsion" in swimming terms...

* note that it did take me many months of doing closed-fist swimming just to do it smoothly and have it not completely disrupt my body position and balance. The first many sessions, it definitely threw my balance off and I felt like a dying fish flopping around
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [tanzbodeli] [ In reply to ]
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Hate to agree with you here, but you are likely not "holding water" well with your open hands, ie causing enough drag. Commonly seen problem where hands slip at various times during propulsion phases. If you were, you would likely see a greater difference in times. Your SR is also likely higher with the closed fists...while DPS is lower. SR x DPS = speed.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty cool thread! As an adult onset swimmer, I really appreciate Gary’s, and everyone’s input here.

Although I might not agree with some of the hydrodynamic statements as declared, I think I can reconcile the descriptions with arguments that are physically sound.

Bernoulli ‘s principle is a consequence of Newtonian dynamics in fluids, and not a separate phenomenon, but I imagine Gary means to convey that sculling is not as effective as “pushing†the water. My slight contention here is that a truly symmetric “push†would result in strong vortex-induced instabilities, e.g if you swing an open palm underwater as fast as you can, it will involuntarily wiggle perpendicular to the motion. A slight asymmetry is required, and this should result in some additional propulsion, but as Gary suggests, is likely a smaller percentage. I would also guess that the suction side pressures of the hands and forearms are more significant contributors to propulsion than the “high†pressure side. Perhaps some food for thought regarding a purely momentum exchange model for swim propulsion, is that neither humans nor animals produce water currents of equal and opposite momentum, but rather wakes.

Regarding early vertical forearms, a straight and sweeping arm which creates the largest possible moment will have a center of pressure farther than 2/3rds of the length of the arm out, acting on a total area of “one armâ€, but a shortened EVF will have approximately 1/2 arm of area with a center of pressure only ~1/4 arm lengths away from the shoulder joint. For the same torque from the shoulder, the EVF can create something like a (2/3)/(1/8) ~ 5x larger force, largely via faster relative motion through the water. Not to mention that the outstretched arm’s pressure is acting on an arc and only the horizontal component is creating propulsion, while a greater proportion of the EVF movement is always better oriented to provide propulsion.

Much of what I said in the previous paragraph is just napkin math on conventional swim wisdom, but beyond the simple dynamics, adding momentum to the water farther away from the body means that less of that momentum will be available to reduce the wake behind you, being instead lost to diffusion with the still water. This means you’re adding the work required to pull more water with you as your body’s wake itself diffuses momentum to still surrounding water.

As a slow swimmer, I’ve long blamed the lack of flexibility in my shoulders for my lack of improvement in front crawl speed. However, I swim almost as fast (read: slow) with open or closed fists. Based on Gary’s posts, I’m definitely going to do a lot more drills and stretching to focus on EVF. I don’t think I realized how much I’ve been out-sweeping during the catch as well as pulling deeper into the water than I had imagined.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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Am I to understand that the (often referred to as recovery arm) plays no roll in forward movement?
Maybe you believe there is some benefit there, maybe you dont. But you have not talked about it.

As far as fist swimming, in my experiences, similar to another poster here, I have seen times within 2 or 3% of non-fisted swims (this is for experienced college age swimmers and advanced age groupers).... in the tri community that % is even closer as the closed fist allows triathletes to move through that "pull phase" (horrible name) and get to the arm throw (recovery as its often referred to) much easier and thus takes a lot of strain off the shoulders and back. IE they go just about as fast without trying to apply all that force on the hand under the water.

my simple points are:

The throw over the water is all to often neglected in swimming and is an area that can create more propulsion than any effort UNDER the water. (I would argue its less taxing energy wise to move ones arm through air than water... no?)

That throw over the water changes your (yes dan) anchor arm into a first class lever.

And the challenging thing in what you do with your arms when you swim is that the movement is simple. However our feedback loops, based on survival, and how we are wired make it extra hard to keep this simple. Over analyzing and over detailing only the underwater aspect of swimming w the arms is not surprising based on this knowledge. And also highlights our desire for more information here. Heck we have a whole host of swim tools that highlight our desire to focus on where our brains are getting feedback, while in the water... hands / paddles of all shapes and sizes and claims of improvement and feet / fins of all shapes an sizes and claims of improvement. And coaches who promote focusing only here by using fancy terms.

daved

http://www.theundergroundcoach.com
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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gary sr wrote:
Dan,

There is a mistaken notion globally among coaches and swimmers that much of the propulsion force is coming from the forearm moving backwards. While the forearm does contribute some propulsion resulting in the swimmer's velocity, the overall percentage is small, perhaps on the order of 10%.

The surface area of the forearm may be greater than the hand but the shape of the forearm is quite different. The hand is a flat surface compared to a rounded surface of the forearm. The flow around the forearm is much smoother than the flow around the hand.

Further, the hand is moving backward in the water at a faster velocity than the forearm. The drag caused by the hand or forearm moving backward is proportional to the square of the velocity.

A very simple experiment is to swim with your fists closed. While that does not eliminate the hand, it makes it's shape smaller and rounder. The result is a huge loss of propulsion.

The EVF does likely increase the propulsion coming from the forearm, but that is not why swimmer's do it. Were it not for the lowering of the frontal drag, the loss of biomechanical strength caused from using this awkward, high-elbow motion of pull would not be worth the trade, even with a little boost from the forearm.

Gary Sr.

I know you did an experiment where you used a constant speed measuring tool and showed this to be true. Do you still have that article somewhere?
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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Wow wow wow, this is great stuff … thanks gary sr. Read the initial posts this morning then tried the tips in my morning swim. Fins and snorkel helped as it was very awkward at first

I forgot about the pinkie down; will have to try that next time. And this seems like a simple yet critical concept: “try to keep the upper arm as close to your line of motion as possibleâ€
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [codygo] [ In reply to ]
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Regarding early vertical forearms, a straight and sweeping arm which creates the largest possible moment will have a center of pressure farther than 2/3rds of the length of the arm out, acting on a total area of “one armâ€, but a shortened EVF will have approximately 1/2 arm of area with a center of pressure only ~1/4 arm lengths away from the shoulder joint.
---

Honest question- how does the shape of the arm affect the maths? Certainly the calculations would be different if the arm were as flat a surface as the hand, especially in terms of total area. But I have to believe that the rounded shape of the forearm changes the equation.






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Shape affects things of course, but that’s just “napkin math.†If we’re presuming the same arm then these details approximately cancel out in the grossly simplified ratio.

Other hidden assumptions are that for a straight arm pull, the velocity of the water varies linearly with distance from the shoulder, but the corresponding pressure forces grow faster than linear with velocity, hence the “farther than 2/3rds.†The centroid of a triangular (linear) distribution is at 2/3rds.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [daved] [ In reply to ]
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daved wrote:
Am I to understand that the (often referred to as recovery arm) plays no roll in forward movement?
Maybe you believe there is some benefit there, maybe you dont. But you have not talked about it.

As far as fist swimming, in my experiences, similar to another poster here, I have seen times within 2 or 3% of non-fisted swims (this is for experienced college age swimmers and advanced age groupers).... in the tri community that % is even closer as the closed fist allows triathletes to move through that "pull phase" (horrible name) and get to the arm throw (recovery as its often referred to) much easier and thus takes a lot of strain off the shoulders and back. IE they go just about as fast without trying to apply all that force on the hand under the water.

my simple points are:

The throw over the water is all to often neglected in swimming and is an area that can create more propulsion than any effort UNDER the water. (I would argue its less taxing energy wise to move ones arm through air than water... no?)

That throw over the water changes your (yes dan) anchor arm into a first class lever.

And the challenging thing in what you do with your arms when you swim is that the movement is simple. However our feedback loops, based on survival, and how we are wired make it extra hard to keep this simple. Over analyzing and over detailing only the underwater aspect of swimming w the arms is not surprising based on this knowledge. And also highlights our desire for more information here. Heck we have a whole host of swim tools that highlight our desire to focus on where our brains are getting feedback, while in the water... hands / paddles of all shapes and sizes and claims of improvement and feet / fins of all shapes an sizes and claims of improvement. And coaches who promote focusing only here by using fancy terms.

daved

I think you’re overselling the value of the overarm movement, but he does talk about it here:
4. The speed of the hand entry of the recovering arm is directly tied to the speed of the shoulder rotation- both powerful coupling motions for your pull.
5. Therefore, focus on driving the recovering hand and arm hard to the water (fully extended). The fast shoulder rotation comes with it. It is the only BOGO I know of in the sport of swimming. Too many swimmers enter their arms like a modern toilet seat with a spring hinge on it.
Fact remains that it’s only productive based on how it’s translated to the pulling arm, unless I’m mistaken.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [dirtbag] [ In reply to ]
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dirtbag wrote:
Nice to see an expert share some tricks.

Expert? I need to know credentials before i throw that label around?
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [Trexlera] [ In reply to ]
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fair point... Im guilty of having my eyes glaze over some of these threads as I just simply disagree with this over complication of what the hand/arm does under the water.

Folks arm movement is very simple. It's our brains that complicate it bc of how we are built/wired.

Imagine yourself laying down in a shallow satelite dish (equal to your natural scapular arch) and making a "snow angel" movement. That is the movement. Of course the arms alternate.
Youll want to over think it.
Youll want to add to it
Youll tell me Im missing stuff and it cant be that easy

But it is.

daved

http://www.theundergroundcoach.com
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [shady] [ In reply to ]
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shady wrote:
dirtbag wrote:
Nice to see an expert share some tricks.

Expert? I need to know credentials before i throw that label around?

Google who the writer is, and you will find he is more successful than most people in the swimming world.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [dirtbag] [ In reply to ]
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dirtbag wrote:
shady wrote:
dirtbag wrote:
Nice to see an expert share some tricks.


Expert? I need to know credentials before i throw that label around?


Google who the writer is, and you will find he is more successful than most people in the swimming world.

:) Longtime readers will 'get ' the joke..lol
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [daved] [ In reply to ]
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The kinetic energy of the recovering arm (particularly at the end of the recovery) as the hand nears the water, and the kinetic energy of the rotating body (shoulders and hips rotate at different times about .2 seconds apart) do, in fact, augment the effect of the two sources of propulsion, pull and kick. We call these motions Coupling Motions. Neither one generates any propulsion, but when they occur during the propulsion, or while the propulsion is still in effect, they will augment the effect.

It just so happens that the aggressive arm/hand entry will cause the shoulders to rotate faster, increasing the kinetic energy in both motions. That is the BOGO I refer to. Sprinters tend to use a straight, fast arm recovery with very high SR to maximize this coupling effect.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [codygo] [ In reply to ]
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I think we agree that the Bernoulli effect at the speed of swimming and with the small size of the wings (hands/arms) it is not a significant force. Sculling, if purely a motion out and back will generate lift but no propulsion. The hand(s) must move backward to do that.
You are correct in that when we try to move the hand in a direct line backwards very quickly, the hand swerves a little. If you kick very fast with fins on and one arm is pointing straight down, we don't have the strength to keep it straight. It swerves from the tremendous amount of drag it is causing. That small amount of excursion of the hand caused by the frontal drag forces is not the same as the in sweep or out sweep so often seen in swimmer's pulling motions.
As the hand passes the shoulder on its way back, the elbow and upper arm elevate in order to try to keep the hand moving backward, not upward. The hand sort of cuts off the corner of the circle from 6 to 9 o'clock on its way back, so the motion is more linear than you might think.
Someone in the thread mentioned that the arm is a class 1 lever. It is not. Like the forearm, the entire arm is a class 3 lever with fulcrum being the shoulder joint, effect load being at the insertion of the major muscles moving the arm into the head of the Humurus, very near the fulcrum. Even if the force load is 2/3 the way down the arm (as you suggest) or at the hand (where I believe most of the force is being applied), the mechanical advantage is far less than one. While the EVF brings the hand closer to the fulcrum, increasing the mechanical advantage, meaning we can push the hand through faster with the same amount of force, I believe that we lose too much biomechanical advantage in this awkward motion to win in the overall propulsion battle. But we do win in the drag battle, and that takes precedence, unless we are swimming a 50 sprint.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Keep your fingers and thumb on the top side. Forget the slots or holes, except the one you run your middle finger through. I have no idea what the others are for. Squeeze your fingers together a bit to keep them on.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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If you want a true comparison of fists closed vs open hand in pulling, test it with a pull buoy (no kicking) and at the exact same Stroke rate. It is easy to compensate for loss of propulsion with increased SR or stronger kick.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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gary sr wrote:
5. Therefore, focus on driving the recovering hand and arm hard to the water (fully extended).

So, does the "fully extended" bit mean that the recovering arm should be fully extended, i.e. straight at the below, before the hand enters the water? Or does it mean that you should drive the recovering hand/arm into the water until it is fully extended? I have been thinking the correct technique was the later, but just wanted to clarify what this meant.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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We use a Propulsion/Drag meter in FL testing various static drag positions at fixed velocities, towing across the pool. I have not tested fist closed vs open yet, but I will next time I am down there. I can already tell you that the difference will be significant.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [tanzbodeli] [ In reply to ]
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No, it should come down hard, but fully extended. There is a lot less drag in air than there is in water.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [daved] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with you! There is a lot more to the recovering arm motion than just recovery. We call the kinetic energy derived from the recovering arm and rotating body (shoulders and hips occur separately about .2 seconds apart) Coupling Motions. They can both be very powerful ways to augment the effect of the two propulsive forces generated by the pull and kick.

We write an entire chapter on Coupling Motions in my book for all four strokes and the start. I am on your side!
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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gary sr wrote:
I think we agree that the Bernoulli effect at the speed of swimming and with the small size of the wings (hands/arms) it is not a significant force. Sculling, if purely a motion out and back will generate lift but no propulsion. The hand(s) must move backward to do that.
You are correct in that when we try to move the hand in a direct line backwards very quickly, the hand swerves a little. If you kick very fast with fins on and one arm is pointing straight down, we don't have the strength to keep it straight. It swerves from the tremendous amount of drag it is causing. That small amount of excursion of the hand caused by the frontal drag forces is not the same as the in sweep or out sweep so often seen in swimmer's pulling motions.
As the hand passes the shoulder on its way back, the elbow and upper arm elevate in order to try to keep the hand moving backward, not upward. The hand sort of cuts off the corner of the circle from 6 to 9 o'clock on its way back, so the motion is more linear than you might think.
Someone in the thread mentioned that the arm is a class 1 lever. It is not. Like the forearm, the entire arm is a class 3 lever with fulcrum being the shoulder joint, effect load being at the insertion of the major muscles moving the arm into the head of the Humurus, very near the fulcrum. Even if the force load is 2/3 the way down the arm (as you suggest) or at the hand (where I believe most of the force is being applied), the mechanical advantage is far less than one. While the EVF brings the hand closer to the fulcrum, increasing the mechanical advantage, meaning we can push the hand through faster with the same amount of force, I believe that we lose too much biomechanical advantage in this awkward motion to win in the overall propulsion battle. But we do win in the drag battle, and that takes precedence, unless we are swimming a 50 sprint.


I remember reading something about Alexandre Popov using less force but having less drag than other top sprinters (presumably your son included hah). Care to comment on this?

Fascinating discussion by the way
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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Popov used a medium octane recovery with very hard hand delivery and fast shoulder rotation-great coupling motions. He also did 21.9 with a SR of 110, about the slowest of any swimmer under 22 seconds. Great propulsion and DPS from strong pull and kick and great coupling.

Caeleb swims the 50 m sprint today with a SR of over 130, yet still has great kick, pull and a much better start. He is also going a second faster.

Gary Jr's stroke rate in the 50 was around 125 with a great kick.
Quote Reply
Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [daved] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
daved wrote:
Am I to understand that the (often referred to as recovery arm) plays no roll in forward movement?
Maybe you believe there is some benefit there, maybe you dont. But you have not talked about it.

As far as fist swimming, in my experiences, similar to another poster here, I have seen times within 2 or 3% of non-fisted swims (this is for experienced college age swimmers and advanced age groupers).... in the tri community that % is even closer as the closed fist allows triathletes to move through that "pull phase" (horrible name) and get to the arm throw (recovery as its often referred to) much easier and thus takes a lot of strain off the shoulders and back. IE they go just about as fast without trying to apply all that force on the hand under the water.

my simple points are:

The throw over the water is all to often neglected in swimming and is an area that can create more propulsion than any effort UNDER the water. (I would argue its less taxing energy wise to move ones arm through air than water... no?)

That throw over the water changes your (yes dan) anchor arm into a first class lever.

And the challenging thing in what you do with your arms when you swim is that the movement is simple. However our feedback loops, based on survival, and how we are wired make it extra hard to keep this simple. Over analyzing and over detailing only the underwater aspect of swimming w the arms is not surprising based on this knowledge. And also highlights our desire for more information here. Heck we have a whole host of swim tools that highlight our desire to focus on where our brains are getting feedback, while in the water... hands / paddles of all shapes and sizes and claims of improvement and feet / fins of all shapes an sizes and claims of improvement. And coaches who promote focusing only here by using fancy terms.

daved

He does cover the importance of the recovering arm in his post. Here are the two points he makes about how important creating that momentum with the recovering arm is:

4. The speed of the hand entry of the recovering arm is directly tied to the speed of the shoulder rotation- both powerful coupling motions for your pull.
5. Therefore, focus on driving the recovering hand and arm hard to the water (fully extended). The fast shoulder rotation comes with it. It is the only BOGO I know of in the sport of swimming. Too many swimmers enter their arms like a modern toilet seat with a spring hinge on it.
Quote Reply
Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
gary sr wrote:
The kinetic energy of the recovering arm (particularly at the end of the recovery) as the hand nears the water, and the kinetic energy of the rotating body (shoulders and hips rotate at different times about .2 seconds apart) do, in fact, augment the effect of the two sources of propulsion, pull and kick. We call these motions Coupling Motions. Neither one generates any propulsion, but when they occur during the propulsion, or while the propulsion is still in effect, they will augment the effect.

It just so happens that the aggressive arm/hand entry will cause the shoulders to rotate faster, increasing the kinetic energy in both motions. That is the BOGO I refer to. Sprinters tend to use a straight, fast arm recovery with very high SR to maximize this coupling effect.

Great thread.

Now will be back to splashing the blue hairs in the adjacent lanes with my quick and 'coupled' hand entry.
Yes, I noticed that works to drive the stroke. But it just looks 'ugly' and certainly I am going to be in the doghouse with the soccer-moms+ a lane over..... until figuring out how to coordinate it with smooth hand entry.
I'll tell them they should direct complaints your way.

No, seriously, Thanks.
.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks.

This is not synchronized swimming. You don't get any time deducted for looking pretty!
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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gary sr wrote:
Popov used a medium octane recovery with very hard hand delivery and fast shoulder rotation-great coupling motions. He also did 21.9 with a SR of 110, about the slowest of any swimmer under 22 seconds. Great propulsion and DPS from strong pull and kick and great coupling.

Caeleb swims the 50 m sprint today with a SR of over 130, yet still has great kick, pull and a much better start. He is also going a second faster.

Gary Jr's stroke rate in the 50 was around 125 with a great kick.

This kind of boggles my mind. I know it's apples and oranges to say the least, comparing myself to that (I do longer distance, not sprints; I'm an adult-onset swimmer with only a couple of years experience, not an Olympian), but I really struggle getting my SR above 80! And that is when focusing on high stroke rate over short distances. My regular, longer distance (500 yd+) stroke rate is probably more in the 50s to low 60s.

Increasing my stroke rate, while keeping the effort level (RPE) the same has been a struggle. Anyone have tips on how to do that?
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [tanzbodeli] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know your age, but it is common for many older Masters swimmers and all triathletes to use a SR in 50's and 60's for distance events (over 200 meters), so don't despair. Get a Tempo Trainer (Finis..you can find them on our website) and train with it. Start with what you can handle for your aerobic sets. Prefer to do shorter repeats (100's 150's 200's with short rest) holding SR. Gradually build it up.

Remember that we are developing a more shoulder-driven technique, so don't spend a lot of time pushing out the back. Most of your propulsion should come around when the pulling hand is near the shoulder. Then release the hand quickly in the back quadrant and get it back out front.

Some swimmers will simply do better with a hip-driven technique, even with no significant kicking propulsion. So keep that in mind.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for the post.

Can I ask you where you got that KL photo from? I want that as wall art in my pain cave.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [AchillesHeal] [ In reply to ]
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I will send you by email if you private message me. I borrowed it from SwimSwam - a Mike Lewis photo.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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gary sr wrote:
We have a bunch of free videos on Youtube (and Lane 1 on our subscription). Or you can take a deeper dive and subscribe to Lane 2 or Lane 3. Lane 3 now has over 300 videos...many on freestyle technique.

Is there a link? I apologize but I can’t find them
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [AchillesHeal] [ In reply to ]
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Go to http://www.theraceclub.com and click on membership bar.














Last edited by: gary sr: Apr 27, 21 9:17
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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gary sr wrote:
I don't know your age, but it is common for many older Masters swimmers and all triathletes to use a SR in 50's and 60's for distance events (over 200 meters), so don't despair. Get a Tempo Trainer (Finis..you can find them on our website) and train with it. Start with what you can handle for your aerobic sets. Prefer to do shorter repeats (100's 150's 200's with short rest) holding SR. Gradually build it up.

Remember that we are developing a more shoulder-driven technique, so don't spend a lot of time pushing out the back. Most of your propulsion should come around when the pulling hand is near the shoulder. Then release the hand quickly in the back quadrant and get it back out front.

Some swimmers will simply do better with a hip-driven technique, even with no significant kicking propulsion. So keep that in mind.

I think a few years ago you said that most of the propulsion comes from when arm passes nose to just before belly button and outside of that, you're not really getting much propulsive force, but outside that range you are in the best streamline?
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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What type of drag cost would there be to spear the water a little deeper to setup the catch quicker? I don't understand how the press down has any benefit. I'm trying to figure out the most efficient way to get into the catch position given my (and others) limited mobility/flexiblity.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Paul,

We now have a Pressure Meter, which measures the Pressure (Force/area) on the pulling hands and the body rotational speed. We have found that the peak force from the pulling hand can occur anywhere from the shoulder all the way back to the release, depending on where the swimmer elects to push the hardest and when the coupling occurs.

With shoulder-driven freestyle the peak shoulder rotation and hand entry occurs when the pulling hand is near the shoulder, leading to the peak force. With hip-driven freestyle, the hand is in front of the shoulder when the peak shoulder rotation occurs, so we often find the peak force at the end of the pulling motion.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan,

Here is one propulsion story you might enjoy (not widely known).

In 1992, there was a world-class backstroker from Gainesville FL, Martin Zubero. He had dual citizenship, USA and Spain, as his father was Spanish. Since the Olympic Games were in Barcelona that year, Spain offered $1Million to the first Spaniard to win a gold medal in the Games.

Spain doesn't usually win too many gold medals, and with Swimming going off the first week of the Games and Martin having a good chance of winning, he did the capitalist thing and decided to swim for Spain.

A couple of months before the Olympic Games of Barcelona, Martin swam the 200 backstroke in a rather rinky-dink meet in Alabama, going 1:56.5, smashing the world record. He was unshaved and untapered, and put the swimming world on notice that he was the man to beat in Barcelona. Apparently it worked, as he won the Olympic Gold medal and, being the first Spaniard to do so, won $1M. Not bad for a day's work. His winning time in Barcelona was 1:58.4, almost two seconds slower than he had done in that little meet in Alabama.

I was intrigued when I looked at his swim in Alabama that he nearly even-split the race. Out in 57+, back in 58+. No one had ever come back nearly that fast in that race. How did he do that, unshaved, untapered, no less? Years later, he confided in a friend of mine, who knows Martin much better than I do, that he came off of the turn at the hundred and all the way down and back during the second 100, he pulled on the lane line markers with his strong right arm. The stroke and turn judges at that meet, whom I am sure were not experienced, never caught him doing that.

I am not sure what the moral to this story is, but it clearly proves that if you want to swim faster, you should pull on the lane line marker, or another swimmer's ankle or a ladder or any other heavy or immobile object you can find underwater. That technique definitely will increase your propulsion.

BTW, your notion of EVF giving you more anchoring is not entirely wrong, especially when compared to a pull where the elbow is leading the hand by a lot. A vertically placed forearm will cause more drag (moving backward) than an angled forearm....just less than the hand causes.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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gary sr wrote:
Dan,

Here is one propulsion story you might enjoy (not widely known).

In 1992, there was a world-class backstroker from Gainesville FL, Martin Zubero. He had dual citizenship, USA and Spain, as his father was Spanish. Since the Olympic Games were in Barcelona that year, Spain offered $1Million to the first Spaniard to win a gold medal in the Games.

Spain doesn't usually win too many gold medals, and with Swimming going off the first week of the Games and Martin having a good chance of winning, he did the capitalist thing and decided to swim for Spain.

A couple of months before the Olympic Games of Barcelona, Martin swam the 200 backstroke in a rather rinky-dink meet in Alabama, going 1:56.5, smashing the world record. He was unshaved and untapered, and put the swimming world on notice that he was the man to beat in Barcelona. Apparently it worked, as he won the Olympic Gold medal and, being the first Spaniard to do so, won $1M. Not bad for a day's work. His winning time in Barcelona was 1:58.4, almost two seconds slower than he had done in that little meet in Alabama.

I was intrigued when I looked at his swim in Alabama that he nearly even-split the race. Out in 57+, back in 58+. No one had ever come back nearly that fast in that race. How did he do that, unshaved, untapered, no less? Years later, he confided in a friend of mine, who knows Martin much better than I do, that he came off of the turn at the hundred and all the way down and back during the second 100, he pulled on the lane line markers with his strong right arm. The stroke and turn judges at that meet, whom I am sure were not experienced, never caught him doing that.

I am not sure what the moral to this story is, but it clearly proves that if you want to swim faster, you should pull on the lane line marker, or another swimmer's ankle or a ladder or any other heavy or immobile object you can find underwater. That technique definitely will increase your propulsion.

BTW, your notion of EVF giving you more anchoring is not entirely wrong, especially when compared to a pull where the elbow is leading the hand by a lot. A vertically placed forearm will cause more drag (moving backward) than an angled forearm....just less than the hand causes.

that is quite a story. there's a lesson in there. somewhere! perhaps that when a seasoned onlooker comes on a result that just doesn't make any sense, there's generally an explanation ;-/

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. And often the explanation is not a good one.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Gary,

I have a question that I am not sure if it’s a dumb question but I’ll risk it.

How much does hand size matter in swimming? I have relatively small hands, and I often wonder (esp when I put even a small paddle on) how much propulsion I’m losing from hands being 2-3 cm less wide and long. It seems very obvious but then I start thinking about the girls who are way faster than me amd they have even smaller hands and so do the 12 year olds in the other lane but they have much smaller bodies. So is it hand size that matters, or is there a hand/body surface area ratio that matters, or is lack of hand size made up for by higher stroke rate?
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [AchillesHeal] [ In reply to ]
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Good question, not dumb. Hand size does matter, particularly when there is enough strength to pull the larger hand through the water without slipping. So does feet size. However, there have been lots of good swimmers with average-sized hands and feet....though I would have to say few or none with small hands or tiny feet. SR can make up the difference to some degree.

Swimming is interesting in that lots of different body morphologies have found ways of succeeding, depending on the stroke and distance. There are so many variables in swimming.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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HA, sneaky backstrokers always pulling on the lane lines! (Go Gators)

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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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This post is really great. Last night I went to the pool and tried to implement keeping my upper arm streamlined and not sweeping it out. I’m sure I didn’t get all of the suggestions right, but I cut 6 seconds/100 off of my pace at the same effort level. (admittedly I am quite slow so there is lots of low hanging fruit)

Please keep these blogs/suggestions coming.

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Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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I've been thinking the best way to experiment with FS pulling motion is actually on a surf-board. And surfing.

If you have an inefficient pull you won't catch waves.

The surf board provides a frame of reference to view your pull mechanics.
The board also puts you on a chest down, swimmer's posture. Forces your back and arms to work (like a golf swing machine)

I've been out in Tofino, twice a week doing 2 hour sessions. The fastest acceleration is from hand tipped in, high elbow for sure.

I watch other surfers with dropped elbows and holy, all that arm turn-over but going nowhere.

Couple of weeks ago we went out with some v/good swimmers from a swim club near us. 10+ footers and they munched through that stuff like nothing. Great surfers!

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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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Ive surfed in tofino... man that was cold. HA..

Again pulling motion is easy. The more you complicate it just makes it way too messy. Both mentally and physically.

daved

http://www.theundergroundcoach.com
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Re: Freestyle Pulling Motion [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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SharkFM wrote:

The surf board provides a frame of reference to view your pull mechanics.
The board also puts you on a chest down, swimmer's posture. Forces your back and arms to work (like a golf swing machine)

I've been using this analogy for years with the people I work with on deck. Had a new athlete last night.

Took < 12 minutes for her to go from crossing over with a splay kick and wiggling side to side to having a decently tight but not great kick, good entry position, much better pull and no side to side wiggle. Went from holding 1:55-:56 to holding 1:43-44s in <15 minutes.

People can also practice this with a SUP, rescue board etc. You can do it kneeling on the board as well which really forces you to make sure your elbows are up.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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