My power profile was much like yours and I decided to work on 1 min and 3 min power for track cycling.

I used this training peaks plan:
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/...00-tss-av-pw-50-vouc

It's helped me with 5 and 20 min power as well.

For sprint power, try 5-10x 100m all out sprints with 5min. easy spinning between each. Yes, that seems like a lot of rest, but we are looking to develop anaerobic power. For each rep enter the rep at a reasonable pace (~20mph) and then sprint out of the saddle at max effort.

There is a limit to how much improvement you will see. Sprinting is something you're born with and has limited development potential compared to endurance. Ollie from GCN comes to mind; he has a >300W FTP, but can only sprint at 700W all out (which a Cat IV will basically do accelerating out of every corner in a crit). He's just all slowtwitch.

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Admittedly, I've never done a DL legal event, but I don't see how focusing on improving 5-sec power would be more beneficial than focusing on your 20 or 60 minute power.

You're "rated" as a Cat 5 for 5/20/60. I'm no coach, but it seems like you'd be better off focusing on doubling down on those types of efforts for triathlon racing and bringing those up as high as you can. I have done plenty of sprint triathlons and have never needed a stronger 1 minute power... but 20 minute power? Absolutely. What good is winning a field sprint when you have to go into T2 and run?

And FWIW, my 5/20/60 are all Cat 2/3, but my 5 second/1 minute power are WAY below Cat 5.

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

I've never done a draft legal triathlon. But is it conceivable that you could come out of the water, say, 30 seconds behind a lead group of 5, but you're all alone. And you'd want to close that gap *fast* and get in the draft before they start working together to pull away from you. Or else you could never see them again. In which case 1 minute power sounds handy.

And does no one ever attack in draft legal bike legs?

Agreed. 1-min power as a reserve of anaerobic ability is handy in draft legal racing for this scenario, or for taking harder pulls at the front if you're working with a group of >5 guys.

5-sec power, fun? Sure. Useful... not really, in draft legal. No one attacks. If they do, most of the time they just get monotonously reeled in by the group working together behind them, because the front pack is simultaneously motivated to stay away from the chase pack(s). Further, the cost of attacking is you're more fatigued than everyone else in front pack if you do by some miracle make it to T2 a few seconds before them. In cycling, you'd have won the race, albeit exhausted. In draft legal tri... you've exhausted yourself and have to go run.

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30 seconds back, what good is 5 second power to close the gap? Unless you’re a world tour quality cyclist, your gunna need quite a bit more than 5 second power to close a 30 second gap. Therefore, focusing on even 3 minute vo2max power would be more advantageous than 5 second spring power. Idk. I just see that in all but one or two scenarios, Op needs to raise his 20/60 min power, as that will undoubtedly be used in every race he/she does.

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

 

cloy wrote:

have never needed a stronger 1 minute power...

Probably none. That's why I cut out just the part of your quote where you said you never needed better 1-minute power. I thought there might be parts of a non-drafting triathlon where it'd be useful to drill it for a minute or so to close a gap.

But maybe you have really good 1-minute power and that's why you never needed to make it stronger. :)

Sprint triathlon and DL Sprint triathlon are two entirely different races.

Don't need a good 1 min power to win a sprint, you need it to latch on and stay on.

Oh no. I assure you, my 1 minute power is absolutely abysmal. Lol

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

Are you riding in a trainer or outside?

Do you have a cycling group you can ride with?

What are absolute power numbers there?

If I had to stereotype, a typical triathlete rides by themselves and never sprints. Go for a couple group rides with fast roadies and you’ll quickly learn to sprint

From there, fresh legs (hard to spring when you’re fatigued from running), practice going all out and a rabbit to chase are most helpful when I’m working on short duration Power

I am a similar age and have similar issues, lack of punchiness. I did the training described in the link below and bumped my 1 minute and 5 second power up about 10% each.
http://www.trainingbible.com/...etrics-research.html

PS. if you just WANT to increase your 5s power, the best way to do so is to get stronger in the weight room. Lifting weights is by far and away more useful than just doing sprints on the bike. Muscular strength and power is the primary limiter to 5s power output on the bike. See link in my signature for lifting plans with videos. Probably will result in much higher 1min power too. I financially benefit from the sale of those templates, in case that wasn't abundantly clear.

Not saying that's what's going to make you win draft-legal racing either.

Also, potential drawback, in the interest of the fullest disclosures, if you do end up increasing your 5s and 1min power output ceilings substantially via lifting, you'll have to learn how to NOT use those peak power outputs during racing. Just because you're better at them doesn't mean you will be less fatigued using them mid-race. You'll actually be better at creating fatigue (acid) for yourself and blowing yourself up faster, if you're not careful. If used well, there can be marginally increased cycling economy (reduced energy consumption for a given power output), but if used with wonton disregard for the fatigue a hard sprint can create mid-race... expect to be off the back.

Take it from me, your local 94kg cyclist and triathlete with the ability to accidentally put out 1500W if I'm not paying attention (<75% of my peak power)... but still just as fatiguing as anyone else putting out 1500W. Rapid acid accumulation!!

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Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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Thanks for the response. I have encountered plenty of situations were 5s power would be helpful in DL racing.

An example might be were you are in the back of a large group which suddenly breaks up into two. A 5 second effort might allow you to bridge the gap and join the leading sub-group. This is happening all the time in the races I enter, were large groups keep fragmenting all the time.

After transition, a couple of seconds is all it takes to loose contact with a group that starts collaborating.

Without 5s and 1 min power, I am forced to race DL as if it were non drafting. Ideally, I think you could burn less matches by gaping the groups and drafting most of the time.

I see. You're probably right. I hadn't realized that groups in DL racing had become large enough to experience meaningful splits like that.

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Thanks for the input. Yes I do group rides with my group, albeit less that ideal. In a typical group ride were egos and testosterone start spilling all over, I miss both 5 sec and 1 min power. Albeit, more of the latter. In a typical ride, I might loose contact after a 1-2 min hill, and then have to work my arse for 5 minutes to rejoin, which I do often, thus burning a lot of energy. Mind you, my problem is not just the 1min power, I am also more efficient in relative terms, pedaling in the flats or downhill than uphill. This has to do probably with my front leg muscles being stronger than my posterior chain, as I am relatively light.

In said group rides, it is less likely that I need a 5 second effort to close a gap, but it happens some times. In DL races it can happen quite often.

I've raced crits my entire career (mostly p/1/2) and really don't find 5s power useful for these situations.

Earlier it was mentioned that 5 s and 1 min is needed to close a 30 second gap, and then this suggests it's helpful for closing gaps, but I have a 1400 watt sprint and I will maybe go over 1000 watts 2-3x in a 60-90 minute race, and then that's only when attacking, going for a prime, or in the final sprint.

Closing gaps is never, ever about a max effort sprint. Frankly, that'd do me no good as the recovery needs would then ensure I get spit out the back of whatever group I just bridged up to.

Also, a 30 second gap is pretty much impossible to close in a minute or other such short amount of time. Think of the speed differences. At 20 mph, you'd have to do 40. At 25, you'd have to do 50. And I definitely don't see how it'd help with pulls. If you're going anywhere near your one minute max when taking pulls, you're going to blow up in very short order. That needs to be massively aerobic, more along the lines of 5 minute power at a max early on, and settling down substantially after that.

Personally, in bike races, a ~10 second gap is the maximum amount of time I can bridge as that takes right around 60-75 seconds at 550-600 watts. Any gap larger than that would require a substantially more metered effort (and at 28-30 mph, I don't have that ability).

For closing gaps, I'd focus way more on 1-5 minute power. Sprinting is really a very specific thing that should only be used in very specific instances and not something that should be repeatedly done in the middle of a race, in my opinion.

I would agree that a 30s gap is not something you can close in 1 minute. Probably not even close it at all, unless you have significant help.

I also agree that 1 and 5 minute power are more useful than 5s, only that I believe that 5s power does have a place at some instances of a race.

Think the most beneficial thing for your power development in group rides would be to practice not getting gapped at all. :)

You're asking the wrong question(s) to solve the problem you presented imo. You're taking a can't see the forest through the trees approach, especailly in light of this comment you made "In a typical ride, I might loose contact after a 1-2 min hill, and then have to work my arse for 5 minutes to rejoin, which I do often, thus burning a lot of energy."

That's not a 1 min power issue even if you're lacking 1 min power.

Hear me out.

My premise is the higher your FTP the easier it is to do these efforts, recover from them, hang on/around when these efforts happen or if you recognize someone is about to blow, put in an effort yourself and get rid of them. It doesn't do you any good to cover these first few efforts only to get shelled out the back later. IMO training :05 &1 min power without figuring out how to raise your FTP is ass backwards. Here's why.

If you're required to close multiple gaps in the race and these are going to take anywhere from :05-3-5-10 min to close the higher your FTP the lower the physiological ask to close the gaps.

For example you're :07 back from a group of 5 leaving T1. You have to put in a ~ 400-550w effort for~ :20 to latch on, could be a bit longer, maybe a touch shorter but I'd bank on longer unless the group is putzing along.

If you FTP is 230 then that is a big ask AND the hole that leaves you in will take longer to recover from, while you're still racing. Therefore you're also susceptible to a savvy person in the group recognizing that and surging, causing you to make another big ask of yourself to stay in the group or the group hits a 180 or a corner and bam you're back on the gas. Sooner or later your body is going to say FU and you're going out the back. It's hard to TT back into the group when you've burned your matches.

If your FTP is 285 the physiological ask is smaller and you're better able to handle AND recover from the effort(s). While it's best not to light those matches to begin with, the higher your FTP if you light a match it's often a matchbook match not one of those long fireplace matches.

(this also plays out for the run. All these well above FTP efforts on the bike will ding your run, don't forget that)

If the group splits and you have to jump on the gas for :03-:05 the higher your FTP the less damaging this effort is, the less lactate you'll produce and have to combust.

This is also a situation where pack awareness really comes into play. For my athletes that race DL, both pro & AG, I counsel that being aware of what's going on ahead of you can mitigate some of these surges.

Again if you're FTP is 230 and you have to jump to 350 for a few seconds to bridge that gap it's a bigger ask and takes a bigger physiological toll on you vs someone with 285 as an FTP.

Then if you've driven FTP up, then it's time to worry about 1 min power.

While you do need to train that ability (~1 min), raising your FTP allows you to cover a lot of the physiological demands/reduce the negative impact from these efforts, allows you to sit in the group more comfortable than others as these efforts happen or even surge coming out of a corner ripping the group apart.

With the ebb & flow of DL age group racing I've never really had anyone have the need to do a specific focus on :05 or 1 min power, especially as their FTP went up. Sure their are instances where it was needed, yet a block focused on that, never. It's adjunct training not the focus of training

Worry about raising your FTP then worry about raising your 5min (another conversation we can have) 1min and lower duration power.

thoughts?

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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I think there's also a substantial disconnect here, thinking of 5s and 1 min power vs having to surge mid-race for 5s to 1min. I doubt I've ever come close to my 5s power in a crit, including in the finishing sprint. In zwift racing (which is the only racing I've done so far with a PM, so that's what I have to compare to), I might peak at my 20s max in the finishing sprint, so holding that number for 2-3 seconds. avg power in the sprint will be lower than that.


If you're hitting 5s power, or maybe even 1min power, to close a gap, you'd better hope that the bunch slows down or you will be off the back again pretty quickly.

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As the race goes on your ability to hit those peak numbers diminish. In a 20-40k it's not going to drop much. It's also not going to be as high as I'm fresh let's test to see where I'm at. The more surges/gaps you have to close the lower that number is going to go as well. Physiology is a cruel dominatrix.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Thanks and it's good to hear this, because I feel it is more feasible to raise my FTP to say, 260, whilst raising my 1 min power to 550 is a much bigger ask. However, the most increases I have seen come from Tabata's or similar shorter intervals with short recovery times. Maybe this is expected.

I agree with this, even for DL racing. You need those efforts to be less taxing for you and that means a higher FTP. And you can use that 1-5 minute power to drop a group and still have it for the run, if you are trained for it.

Just as alternative perspective.

I coach track cycling sprint athletes and am publishing data (a review accepted and a study being reviewed) on modelling sprint cycling. Study one (submitted to MSSE) presents data showing that 2min, 8min and 20min have an influence on both 15s and 30s power. Study 2 shows that one can have too much power and for 30s performance, it is better to focus on lifting 15s power, rather than Pmax and 5s power. This is for one off sprint performance, and no World Championship sprint event is a one off ride, even the 500/1000 metres times trials at Worlds.

So I would be amazed to see 5s, or even 1min power having a profound effect on Triathlon performance of any distance.

When coaching standing starts I developed a very good technique and probably overdid the short starts and consequently had my 500/1000m time trial riders perform well for first 1/2 lap (125m), but die really badly.

So, when I was consulted my Multi-Sport (NZ's Coast to Coast) and Ironman athletes on the cycling leg/components, my suggestion for "speed work" was 5min at shortest, and now a few years later, would probably raise that to 8min.

Also the power profile chart data is based on World Class data from riders at each different level, so, 5s is a track sprinter, 60s a Kilo riders, 5min a pursuiter and 20min a time trialist. So Bernal may have a fantastic 20min W/kg but will have a poor 5s compared to world class Dutch sprinters on the track.

Hamish

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Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach

I'm going to have to disagree, only a bit, with some of the advice you've been given. Here are a few thoughts to consider while digesting the previous advice:

1. While we speak in terms of 5 second, 1 min, 20 min, etc. power. Those are really constructs we use to define measures of fitness/form but our physiology is more complex than that. You can raise your FTP with Tabata intervals or with just increasing mileage substantially. Even though there are methods that are more efficient use of time, you will not be tanking your FTP by adding in intense efforts which are likely to improve your power at 1 min/5 min, etc. Different riders react to training stimulus differently and you really need to find a plan that fits your needs.

2. Having a higher FTP is great for TT's, Tri's or pretty much any cycling event. However, resilience to intense repeated efforts is important too. I've had different times in my training where although I had a very similar FTP, my resilience to repeated efforts above threshold were much different. It's common to think in terms of matches you have to burn before your matchbook is empty. Having more 'matches' in general is much more important in a criterium or cx race than any triathlon event (drafting or non-drafting). However, that same resilience can be helpful in turning a good TT split on a course with rolling hills, especially if draft legal. That being said, your FTP being higher is still most important, especially given the type of races you are describing.

Good luck with your training!

Scott

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I have deceptive speed.........I'm slower than I look!

Today's Crit City C race, I got dropped from the front group halfway through the race, latched onto the second group and got 3rd out of 17 in the sprint for 26th place. I managed to hit my 30s power for all of 2 seconds in that final dash.

Golden Cheetah said my W' went negative right around the time I got dropped, so I think that means I used up all my matches.

Which brings up an interesting point. There is a lot of discussion about raising FTP, but I hardly ever see anything about raising W', which (to my limited understanding of the subject) is a pretty important metric when talking about repeatability.

Edit - in a 22min race, I counted 10 surges at anywhere between 2 and 5 min power. Which just backs up what everyone else is saying.

Also, to the OP, how often do you really do flat out 5s sprints? I don't mean surging during a race or group ride, I mean doing a warmup, some easy riding, then stomping on the pedals as hard as you can for 10 seconds while you're fresh to get a true "peak" power number. Most people don't do that (and it isn't really necessary, I've done it mostly out of curiosity, but I'm not training that peak)

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I'll second anyone else on here that has suggested group rides. Mix a weekly hammerfest in as your weekly hard cycling workout in addition to your regular training. If you ride a group ride aggressively, power output from 30s to FTP will improve, and frankly, it's just more fun and tolerable than doing anaerobic 30-120 second intervals by yourself. I'd still suggest doing specific sprint training for improving 5-10s power outside of group rides although it will be less practical for draft legal racing.

The best way to raise 5s power is to do repeated jumps. There's a huge neuromuscular component to these.

A typical workout would be to ride for 60 mins in a cruising gear, middle of cassette. Speed 17-18 mph. Every 3 mins spin/sprint as fast as you can for 5s without changing gear and remaining seated. Speed should go from 18 mph to 28-30 mph. Don't change gear. You should always be a little undergeared and spinning high cadence to get the acceleration.

Try in a few different gears and alternate between drops, tops and hoods to see which gives the best results/max speed. 3 mins works well for recovery. 2.5 minutes if you're in a hurry. If you can recover in 2 minutes you haven't been trying hard enough.

Typically the peaks will be found on reps 4 and 5.

This exercise singlehandedly made the difference for not getting dropped in a cat 3 or 4 crit. Way easier on the legs to respond to an acceleration around every corner by spinning fast than pounding a bigger gear. I'm a diesel engine with no natural sprinting ability. Crits don't come easy to me.

There's a high neuromuscular component to this, but it will also work those fast twitch muscles. You will see a difference after 3 to 4 weeks.

1 min power is a mix of different energy systems. Training 1 minute intervals is not the way to do it.

I recommend 1 session of 30 on/30 off or 15 on/15 off. 10 minute intervals. 3 set of intervals. i.e. 3*10 mins of 30/30 with 10 mins rest between each. Go hard as you can sustainably go for the on period, in a reasonably hard gear. Combine this with steady VO2 max work and you will see huge gains in 1 min power. I typically see 20-30% increases over a few weeks. e.g 420W for 1 min will get close to 580 W after 5 weeks or so.

This is tremendously useful for dealing with surges and hills in group rides and crits. I'll be able to finish with the P12s in our local weekday practice crit (28 mph average) after a few weeks of these. Was even able to have a short chat with Alex Howes during one of these a couple of years ago.

It sounds like race-craft and positioning could be putting you in bad positions that you have to go over threshold to cover, and you are unable to recover adequately and repeat.
It’s an aerobic sport, damnit- Coggan
A rising tide lifts all ships- also Coggan IIRC

A 5 second surge =\= 5 second power. A 1’ surge =\= 1 minute power (think Theo Bos and Chris Hoy)

Over/unders and VO2, sure. SST and Zone 4, sure.

But also quit putting yourself in positions to need to cover gaps and splits, and rethink what you’re doing the 5 miles before those 1-2’ hills.
Start at the front and slip-climb. Ride your pace and don’t overgear. Meter your efforts closing gaps and chasing back on.

Thanks, and yes, that is part of the explanation and I have to work at that too. I often get distracted when taking a drink or whatever and when I realize I already have a gap to close.

Regarding the other comments, they provide extremely valuable information. My take away is that I am in the right track, which is raising the tide (FTP) and doing intervals to increase 1 min power. Fundamentally to shorten recovery time. As I see it, a combination of Tabatas and other short intervals with short recovery will do the trick. 5s power is something I should forget about.

Thanks everyone.

Is there someone in your group who is really good at positioning, always in the right spot, never looks like they are working hard, and seems to float through the group with ease?
Glue yourself to that wheel.