following.

i gave up and returned to open turns unless i'm pulling.

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Dimond Bikes Superfan

What is your normal breathing pattern while swimming? I ask because if you breathe every stroke it is definitely alot harder to then transition to a flip, streamline, and not breathe on the breakout. Maybe in this case also work on breathing every 3-4 strokes when swimming so you don't "shock the system" at each wall.

Just take a breath before starting your turn. It comes with practice and eventually you don't even think about it.

I have been swimming for 40 + years and I still sneak a breath before the flip turn, as stated above it does become easier with practice. Work on bi-lateral breathing and once you have mastered that you can sneak a breath before the wall without breaking rhythm.

I'm guessing you're really panicking right before you turn, so you take the biggest breath you possibly can? This actually overstresses you, and you need to make sure to not overfill your lungs, just take a large but still comfortable breath. Relax, you'll make it!

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

Once you learn the Gary Hall breathing pattern, it becomes easy to do a double breath into the wall, and out of it too. Those two things allow a good swimmer to get a much longer breakout without cost, and AOC swimmers enough air to just be able to do the dam things...

Thanks. Did a youtube search. Found some good short videos.

Form is critical and the top three answers were already stated above. A trade-off tip is to throttle back the leg power to extend time underwater. They suck oxygen demand much more than arms, shoulders muscles, and core but it allows a bit of the tri-OCD slanted person to complete a succession of flip turns and feel good about it.

I was in the same boat. I started flip turns well into my triathlon career and usually came up gasping for air. Plus it seemed like I spent the whole swim preparing for or recovering from a turn. I hated it so much that I gave up several times and went back to open turns. Eventually I stuck with it long enough that I am now fairly comfortable. I do not have to think about them and shortness of breath is no longer an issue. My turns are probably terrible by any reasonable standard and 1-2 times per workout I screw up and come in so awkwardly that I have to do an open turn. That being said, it has made me slightly faster in the pool and, more importantly, made it easier to transition to open water because I am no longer accustomed to a brief rest every 25 yds. My suggestion is just to refine your technique to the extent possible, but mostly just stick with it. I'd say it was about a year from the time I first started until I found I was no longer thinking about them. If I can do it, anyone can.

here's what i have on the front page on 2:3 breathing, with a video. i've adapted this in a number of ways, and when open water swimming this is frequently alternate breathing with an occasional 3-consecutive-breath series thrown in. in my opinion, consecutive breaths are: 1) mandatory as you age; 2) a real luxury with flip turns; 3) huge in open water.

the value in open water is: 1) if somebody splashes water in your mouth during a scheduled breath, you just get your breath on the other side; 2) you can see what's going on on your other side; 3) you get more air.

the older i get the more susceptible i am to hypoxia. the capacity to take consecutive breaths is a substantial safety factor. i can absoutely see how someone can get into real trouble in the water just by losing 2 chances to breathe, as in, a breath is stolen by some a-hole swimming overtop of you, and then the second breath is a washout for the same reason, or whatever. my ability to get a breath on either side, whenever i want, without ever breaking stroke, is a huge, huge tactical advantage, and safety technique, i have as a swimmer, esp as i age.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Rememeber from my swimming days I would struggles a lot with this sometimes especially if I was going hard but it definitely got easier with time as flip turns became second nature and I got a better handle on my breathing pattern.

One thing to keep in mind is that you should be exhaling or "blowing bubbles" while your face is in the water rather than holding your breath and exhaling and inhaling every time you turn your head. So becoming more efficient at flip turns and breathing are the two main things I can think you could work on.

Practice some underwaters as part of warm up. I push off wall and go as far as I can underwater dolphin kicking and some days I do the whole 25 underwater coming up for air 2-3x. I can tell when I am in shape i can do it on 2 breaths and not breathing hard other times I kind of fall apart and can barely get back underwater to keep kicking.

Yes, at 3 months only, you likely won't be used to it yet as a triathlete with triathlete type swim volume.

It gets better as you get more used to it. Interestingly, it can actually get easier as you swim harder in some cases, as for most folks, as they really start turning up their swim effort, they also flip faster/harder, so less time spent holding your breath underwater during the flip.

You'll eventually learn to time your last breath at the right moment, and as well your body will get used to the mild discomfort of holding your breath even while at effort.

Not to point out the obvious... but breathing is a three part action. In. Out. Hold.

The quality of any inhale is dependent upon the quality (volume) of the exhale.

Congrats to the OP for getting on w flip turns. Its a skill that too many triathletes just avoid that can greatly enhance their overall aquatic capacity.

Breathing into the turn is far less detrimental to velocity than breathing out of the turn. I would wager that those struggling after the flip are not utilizing the exhale to its fullest. One 'drill' to work on this physical activity and also satisfy the emotional challenge of being submerged is to hang on the surface of the water with your lungs full and then exhale until you being to sink (do this in shallow water to begin with and if needed you can have your hands anchored on the wall to stop your fall). Once you start sinking allow yourself to go as far as comfortable before you return to the surface.
From there, continue on your exploration of exhaling to sink.
You will find:
You have way more air in you than you thought
You can last longer than you ever dared thought (without air in your lungs) ** which will pale in comparison to the time needed to execute a flip turn and streamline and surface swim
And lastly, that after a few tries... it is kind of fun.

I think I have shared this before. But I have worked with many AOS who were physically gifted and developed to run marathons or compete in cycling event but could not do one lap of the pool without being 'gassed'...

Your aquatic breathing quality is ruled by your exhale.

daved

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http://www.theundergroundcoach.com

Yeah I was going to suggest this. I try and finish each session with some underwater work, normally with fins. 10 x 25m underwater. The focus is on relaxing. Do it with a partner.

^^^^^This.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

Most people I know can do 25 yards underwater with one breath at the start.

underwater hypoxic training can cause shallow water blackouts. Not worth the risk, and not much benefit, for a triathlete wanting to learn how to breathe in and out of flip turns.

Those are so much fun. I'm in a 50m pool now and haven't done them in a while. 50m might be a real challenge. Lol.

Which is why I said do it with a partner. And it will teach him how to deal with C02 build up, breath control and how to control the feeling of panic. He can fix it with an improvement in fitness, tumble turn speed/technique, but also psychologically. Your mind is telling you, you need to breathe as you're about to drown, you're not going to drown, you are not breathing for 3 secs, that's it. You tell your mind you will get to breathe in 3 seconds and it gets much easier. This is one of the reasons why people can double their breath holds after doing a 2 day apnea training course.

Your mind is telling you, you need to breathe as you're about to drown, you're not going to drown, you are not breathing for 3 secs, that's it.

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Whenever we do breath holding for master's, I actually tell the swimmers the opposite...."If you need to breath, please breath...". Not a lot gained imo from doing a full underwater that other breath control methods can accomplish the same thing in a safer manner imo. But to each their own, just as a professional coach I would be very hesitant to suggest some of the things that's being suggested to likely an AOS with "breath holding" swims (most especially at the end of the set when fatigue is high and decision making may be compromised).

Eta: But to answer the OP:

1) bravo for working on it, I would tell you just like I tell one of my master girls, relax coming off the wall.

2) I wouldn't worry so much at the back end of the workout, see if you can slowly progress to getting further a long with it, but I would start in the warm up....Every flip turn is done with no breath on the 1st stroke. Get that success and see how it starts to translate into the main set and end of set.

3) bravo for trying/working on it. I think flip turns are one of the best forms of water comfort / breath control that will translate into open water confidence.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I don't understand that. One of the reasons for hypoxic drills is to train your body and mind how to cope when you can't breathe. For example many novice open water swimmers struggle when they have an OWS in adverse conditions, because they go to breathe and get a mouthful of water and they panic. Sometimes in open water with choppy conditions you can't breathe when you want to, instead of every 2, it's 4 or 6 strokes. So how do you do hypoxic training if you tell someone they should breathe whenever they feel the need. Because that will be every 2 strokes, not every 6 or 8.

I believe you said that doing underwater 25 is “only 3 seconds more” of breath holding. That makes no sense to me considering for most part ppl do bi lateral or when they come off the wall w flip turn it’s no where close to that: amount of time.

So doing a full 25 is much further and I can do much safer breath control work than having to go a whole 25. Thus if we are doing a full 25 underwater and a persons feels the need to truly breath....please fucking come up and breath over holding your breath. So if they normally breath every 3s and suddenly hold their breath for 6sand aren’t at 25m yet and get flustered and want air.....it’s irrelevant if they came up early or not. They already accomplished the goal of comfort, breath control and not panicking. Thus why I say breath at end of day vs olding your breath for only 3s more. They already held their breath for longer than normal etc so this arbitrary full 25m of no breath is a stupid and my opinion can be a dangerous metric. So it’s not just “3s more” they prob already have doubled their time w/o air if they are doing breath control work. So suggesting 10 x 25m of no breath at the end of a set is a lot of work at no air when already likely fatigued. Thus in my professional opinion if they need to breath at 18’m, breath over “holding your breath longer”.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Nah I meant 3s taken to do the tumble-turn.

Right so I just think the 1 length = hypoxic work is the very reason why ppl are drowning of shallow water blackout. Thus why I’m saying I your already past your normal breath hold and your not there yet....fucking breath over worrying about getting that final 5m to he wall, especially or your in a bit of a panic.

1 full length, no breath (or 1 breath at the start technically) doesn’t need to be the “standard” hypoxic set thus for athletes I tell them breath when needed, they already have held their breath longer than normal, and accomplished the goal.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Yea if I was an actual swim coach I would never, ever give hypoxic sets. The liability is just not worth the [completely hypothetical] benefit.

To the OP - I used to not breathe directly into the turn near the beginning of the set, but as I got tired or was sustaining a higher HR I usually would take that extra breath. Same thing with coming out of the turn; near the beginning of the set I would not immediately breathe on first stroke (because it's faster out of the turn to not take a breakout breath), but later in the set I would.

At many Y’s across the country true “hypoxic” (1 lap no inhale) swimming isn’t even technically allowed. The policy I Master’s swim coach under is zero no breath sets (if that’s worded poorly it means we can’t give sets where they swim 1 length without breathing......now I have about 5 college swimmers turned master swimmers that will go no breath or can do it more easily then others....I just can’t coach them too).

Our traditional “allowed” BC set is:

4 x 50 on 60
Odd- 2 breaths per 25 each way
Even- 1 breath per 25 way way

4 allows you to push the swimmer’s comfort level but not overwhelming where they can get in a bad spot with having to do it over and over in a short time frame like the previous mentioned 10 x 25 no breath .

ETA: But again my policy is always "breath if you need to". Worrying about 1 extra breath in a 1 breath hold set is the stupid shit that gets athlete's in a spot of bother in the first place. So I always give the athlete's an out. 2 breaths in a 25yard period is in my professional opinion fine for working water comfort / emotion control / breath control.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

First I would listen to Mony and or Slowman. Both are darn good swimmers.

Skills in all three sports are good to learn. The flip turn and push off - glide is one of those skills. It simply makes you a better swimmer. The Master’s group I swim with does a great bit of skill work.

The other day we had a set 3 x 1000. The 1000 was broken into lot’s of smaller bits. But at the end there were 6 X 50. On each 50 you lost a breath and the goal is to get to one breath per length on the last 50. The way to swim it is push off and swim to the other end with no breath, breath going into the wall then take a breath half way across the pool.

A standard pull with paddles buoy and band is 300 with 3-5-7 breathing per 100. If it’s a 400 it’s 3-5-7-9.

Again ask Monty and Slowman they will attest that I’m not a natural born swimmer. It’s learning all the swimming skills that have gotten me to the swimmer that I am.

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

I always take a breath on the last stroke into the wall (not after the last stroke, where both hands would be at my side before the flip); the only exception would be if I were really racing a 100 or less. So to make sure you can do this, you need to be able to breathe to both sides.

A couple things you can try to get used to longer periods without breathing:
-do 25's where you go longer off the wall than normal (like do 6 fly kicks before starting your breakout stroke).
-do some breath control work. This would be something like breathing every 5 rather than whatever your normal pattern is. Do it with a pull buoy and/or paddles to make it easier.
-kick with a board, and put your face down in the water and count X kicks before picking up your head to breathe again (this is same as above, just with kicking instead of pulling)
-Alternative is like doing 50's where you get X number of breaths (like 3) for the whole 50. Start higher and come down.

I don't recommend doing things like 25's underwater or seeing how far you can go without breathing. Just push your comfort zone a little at a time.

Off the wall, it is taught almost universally not to take a breath on the first (breakout) stroke. The only high level swimmer I can think of that has done that is Sun Yang and well, he's not a good example. If you currently take a heaping breath on your first arm recovery off the wall, practice not doing that with 25's to start.

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At my club one of the swim club kids had to pull a dead lap swimmer out of the pool 2 years ago. It was probably a heart attack as opposed to shallow water blackout but I always think of this when I do any breath holding stuff. I do my underwaters to practice underwaters and not directly for hypoxic training. The prime focus is the burst off the wall which simulates a race flip turn. I try to maintain a regular breathing pattern just like swimming on the surface hence I usually go a little past half a lap and then take a breath and then another at around the flags and sometimes a third one when I need it. Sometimes I see a college kid practicing underwaters and they are like fish and I usually wait until another day to do them to not embarrass myself.

taking a breath on the first stroke feels like throwing a ball lefthanded. It is THAT ingrained in me, I am sure you are the same way. This lead me to an interesting observation:

I am right arm dominant. I also breath almost exclusively to my right. So coming off the wall the first stroke is a left stroke, followed by a right stroke/breath. The problem is that any lap that has an odd number of strokes is going to end up having 1 more left (non-dominant) pull than right. I suspect if I were able to retrain myself: first stroke RIGHT then breath LEFT I would chop off .2 or so per 50 because I am then using my dominant arm more than my non-dominant.

I of course will not actually do anything about this.

Just keep at it. You’ll get there. Took me about a month before I could do it especially on harder sets. The key is just man up and don’t cheat when you’re getting tired because the adaptations happen when you’re on the brink of giving up.

I also did a hypoxic warm up set every swim for a couple months until no longer needed it. I’d swim 8x 50 breathing as 3/5/7/9 strokes 2x through. It took a while to work up to the 9. Then eventually 4x100s as 3/5/7/9.

And note, on the hypoxia sets, I was doing them at the Y. I didn’t blackout or drown. And felt pretty safe with 2 lifeguards on deck. And worked up to it gradually. But proceed at your own risk.

It’s improved my swim confidence a lot. I no longer panic when I miss a breath in races, etc.

There isn't a race scenario that I can think of that you need to hold your breath for probaly more than 10ish seconds. Sure you go to breath and get hit by a wave, and you simply regroup, and breath next stroke or next stroke after that. That's at most 3-4s time frame. Or you get swam over, but that happens so quickly that unless you truly get knocked out or 8 people swim over top of you, you dont really need "extended" breath holding to get comfortable at it. Another BC set I like to give is 3 / 5 / 7 strokes per breath. This is a sweet spot almost open water specific imo because this truly does work that sensation of holding your breath for just "1 more stoke", etc. 7 strokes equates to about 2 breaths per 25 and if you do that over a few 100's you really start to figure it out. So I think there are certainly some ways to work it without going to steps that in our industry has had some deadly consequences. I believe it was an Ivy League swimmer most recently in '19 that went home for holidays and died while doing breath holding work (he was swimming alone) w/ LG support on deck, etc.

I always tell people start with flip turns in the warm up and cool down. Nail that and then begin to work it into the main set. What you don't want to do is have the flip turn throw you off so badly that the swimming is compromised. But if your doing it in the w/u w/d, you'll likely being doing 500yd-1k of flip turns and that's a lot of turns to get practice on.

As far as the breakout stroke- simply follow the rule.....Every time you breath on the 1st stroke off the wall, you owe yourself a push up. So either you'll get good at it finally or you'll have great arm muscle definition.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Most LG's likely wouldn't even know your doing "breath holding" sets when your on top of water swimming free and breathing 1-2 times every 25. Unless your the only person in the pool, you swimming freestyle on top of the water isn't going to be out of the ordinary. It's when your doing underwater's the whole time without air that's when it's likely easier to spot from a LG standpoint.

I'm not sure what the old school swim coaches did for true no breath hypoxic sets, whether it was freestyle on top of water or underwater efforts. Underwater efforts will def draw more attention from the LG, or should, if they are vigilant and doing their job properly. But you swimming laps of 2 breaths per 25, nah you likely aint even a "concern".

ETA: I would guess old school coaches wouldn't even consider a 3/5/7/9 or 1/2 breaths per 25 type as "hypoxic" work would be my take. Those guys and gals seemed to be on "no breathing" for lengths of pool as their standard, and if you breathed, you had to do it all over again, etc.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Given that the OP said his problem with flip turns is that he can't breathe, I don't see why he would do any hypoxic drills and just make swimming more miserable. I say breathe more; take as many breaths as you need to feel comfortable. Sneak a breath coming into the turn and don't feel like you have to dolphin kick or take a couple of strokes before breathing as you come out of the turn. Breathing more might slow your turn, but it will still be faster than open turns and way less miserable than trying to mimic the experts. For me, anyway, the key early on was learning the basics in terms of distance from the wall to start the turn, the timing of the last stroke, and hand/ arm position. After I no longer had to think about those things and so was more relaxed during the actual flip, I gradually lengthened my non-breathing distance heading into and out of the turn.

As I said the pool and workouts are often about skill in the water including breath work and even turns.
Today was no different.

Warm up 10 minutes
750 of Skill work with fins It included fast kicking as well as doing butterfly and breast stroke with a flutter kick. The idea was to keep the motion moving forward.

Main set was 3 times through
150 at base
2 X 100 IM at Base + 15
3 X 50 at Base +20
Each round the 50’s changed.
Round 1 25 fast into the turn then 25 easy
Round 2 25 easy then push hard off the wall into 25 fast
Round 3 50 Fast

Final
5 X 50 Pull lose a breath each 50
5 X 50 Pull Lose a stroke each 50
5 X 50 Pull Descend 1-5.

If you can’t flip turn it’s going to be really challenging to do this in the allotted time of 1:15. There was one IM that I did my flip turn off back stroke, pulled for breast stroke and had to basically stop to catch my breath. I am grateful every day that we have pools open and that two pools within 15 minutes of home offer Master’s Swimming with a coach on deck to help out. I am constantly asking them for help with my skill.

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

As far as the breakout stroke- simply follow the rule.....Every time you breath on the 1st stroke off the wall, you owe yourself a push up. So either you'll get good at it finally or you'll have great arm muscle definition.

So I looked at some Ledecky and a lot of other top mens videos, and for the life of me, I cannot see where folks are "not" taking a breath off the walls in the distance events. I know it has been taught for over 60/70 years that way, and has been ingrained into just about every generation going way back, except for the past couple. I also know a ton of coaches that are still stuck in this old paradigm too, but time to upgrade from the 1990s', no?

And over the years the old thought of breathing less off the walls was ok in the 200's and down, but I even see in the 100 a lot of guys breathing off the walls. About the last race left is the 50 short course where folks dont breath off the wall anymore, and pretty sure that race has nothing to do whatsoever with our type of swimming..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR5oRo75BX0

I cannot see where folks are "not" taking a breath off the walls in the distance events.
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I watched a few of the turns, focusing on the top 3 swimmers in the heat (lanes 1,2,5). What I see are that the first stroke is with the left arm and the breath is on the right side, which is their 2nd stroke. This is what I do in the pool and what AJ describes above. So, in a sense, it's not necessarily taking a breath right off the walls, but it's pretty darn close.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

So, in a sense, it's not necessarily taking a breath right off the walls, but it's pretty darn close. //

You are right, they would have to do an open turn to take an actual breath "off" the walls.. (-;

Who is this Gary Hall person?? What does he know about swimming? Is it Snr or Jnr? Do you know him monty?

We’d go 20x25 sprint no breath @ 30 at the end of a workout. The coach would time everyone to make sure you were actually sprinting. So most of the guys I swam with would typically have to go around 10-12 seconds for the 25 to not get dinged by the coach. Also, if anyone during the set took a breath, we’d have to start over.

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

We used to do what our coach called "Lung-busters" at the end of workouts. I think it was 6x75 as 25 underwater into a flip turn (no breath) into a 25 no breath swimming into a flip turn (no breath) into a 25 max sprint. On as much rest as you needed, but if you failed it didn't count as a rep. That 25 max was meant to simulate the last 25 of a 100 in a race.

What are his credentials?

Does he even have any?

Ok gotcha :)

Yeah, back in the 80's, we were coached that the ideal was to breath only between the flags. In retrospect, it was a rather stupid idea. And it didn't really work for anything over a 200. Coach would get on me for "giving in" and breathing in and out of the wall on the back half of a 500 race, saying that's what slowed me down. Yeah, I doubt the oxygen deficit on the front half had anything to do with slowing down.

I still take one stroke before a breath off the wall in a 100. It's just a matter of an ingrained habit of pulling first with my right, while my 100 breathing pattern is 2/4 to the left. With better streamline technique and a dolphin kick, I'm close to the flags on the way out of a turn before the first stoke now anyway.

As for short-course 50's, it's still a no breath event for me.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Yeah, I doubt the oxygen deficit on the front half had anything to do with slowing down. //

It is a lot like how power is used in cycling now, just looking at one metric and thinking it is all that matters. Ya, in retrospect it is easy for most of us to see how silly not breathing at any race other than a 50 is just plain counterproductive. And of course the further you go, the more important all the breaths you can take become in a race. Of course taking no breaths is as streamlined and pretty as one can get, but folks just forget the cost of all that beauty.

Classic thread, all with good grace

[/quote]After years of protest I have finally taken to incorporating flip turns into my training. About 3 months into this and I am still dying for oxygen on my breakout stroke and late in sets find the desire to break my breathing pattern to get an extra gulp of oxygen before the wall.

is this a case of HTFU and comfort will come with time and practice?
or,
does anyone have any drills, tips, tricks to more quickly get comfortable with the shift in breath timing when transitioning from open turns to flip turns?[/quote]


Ok, I am not a PRO swimmer nor was a national level swimmer when younger. But I have been swimming for the last 40 years more or less. On my credentials I have always swim under 50' in IM (low 50's in Kona), and last year I PB at the 1500m LC with 18:00.
On my experience, the breathing technic has nothing to do with "holding" your breath (apnea), but instead finding a rithm that allows your arm's cadence be in phase with your normal under-effort breathing rithm. What I mean is that when your mouth is out of the water you should be inhaling, and when it is underwater, exhaling (so when your mouth breaks the surface you are ready to inhale again). It is kind of similar as when lifting weights: you don't hold your breath (maybe for a very few seconds), but rather maintain a breathing pattern that allows you to perform the task.
Regarthing the especifics of the flip turn, just take a last deep in-breath before the last arm stroke (easing that stroke), hold the breath like when doing a flip on the ground, and then start releasing the air as you move away from the wall and up to the surface. Do not try fancy dolphing kicks or nothing, just point to the surface as you are releasing air. Then retake your breathing-stroke pattern.

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STRAVA INSTAGRAM

It's mental. You are not oxygen deficient. The feeling is caused by anxiety.

I promise you this breathlessness will go away after a few weeks or months of practice. Don't worry about the breath timing. Just breathe every stroke into and out of each wall (for now). Once you feel more comfortable in the water, flip turns will feel as natural as, er, breathing. ;-)

I'm a coach and love using kickboards to practice flip turns. It teaches you to stay balanced through the flip without waving your arms around:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAnxWeEUzTk

This body balance will greatly decrease the total time of your flip turn, which will get you air much sooner.