I live in the city in Japan. Even on a nice day, there is nowhere I could possibly ride outside that will provide me with a consistent, structured workout. The traffic lights here are designed to stop cars at damn near every one. Indoor training is a blessing.

with the amount of cars on the road (and the mentalities of their drivers) it is less and less enjoyable and safe to ride outside. sorry, but trainer riding is the best workout you can get and having a beautiful patio to sit and enjoy the day makes it even nicer.

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80/20 Endurance Ambassador

I do this all the time. Some of us have kids to keep tabs on.

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http://www.extramilenutrition.com

I've been "punish passed" and buzzed by cars on dead empty open country roads for no reason other than the enjoyment of the maniac driver. I'll stick to my trainer and Zwift riding for all but a very select few workouts, thank you very much.

I've been riding on the road since my competitive road racing days as a junior some 25 years ago, and I can say categorically that drivers are far less patient or courteous now than then.

So much so that I'm avoiding getting my kid a road bike and steering him to mountain biking on trails away from the cars and roads.

But obviously, to each their own...but for me, I'll take Zwift and a smart trainer over dealing with the possibility of ending up in the ditch (or worse) for the sake of an hour ride.

I've been to some lovely places in the Dominican or Mexico that are just stunning. I've stayed in places like this, with a view to die for. And in some of those places there's a 0% chance I would ever ride there as I value my life.

Pretty much my only outdoor rides these days (last outdoor ride was Kona and next will probably be close to a race in June) are stupid early in the morning with a bunch of lights to see and be seen. I often see more deer in a ride from 3-6 am than cars! With a family and knowing how distracted many drivers are it just isn't worth it for me to be outside very much.

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023

here we go. again.

See, to me, I'd just quit the game altogether and end up only running or rowing or speed skating or something. Something where I get a fitness challenge but still can 100% enjoy the sport.

The best parts of the bike have been destroyed at that point. You do workouts inside or on a patio and only race once a year outdoors? Then during a race you're probably more focused on position, nutrition, the rules about drafting than you are enjoying a ride outdoors. May as well do indoor triathlon too.

There's aquathon with swim/run. Why not do that? I get living in big cities, but, pay to play yo. Choose to live somewhere like that and there's give and take. You get the economy and the night life, but good luck ever riding.

I enjoy Zwift these days on rainy days or really cold or inconvenient days. But our weeknight worlds crew has still been meeting on the dry cold nights out of the brewery.

I just can't believe that the advertising has caught up to the trend. It's really depressing the market is so large for that now that it's a common thing. I can get Peloton ads as it's the busy professional looking for a workout, not an aspiring amateur triathlon racer or bike racer.

I can't blame folks for the decisions, that's perfectly fine. Can't fault ya unless you choose to live in NYC and takeup an outdoor hobby. Otherwise, it's just plain depressing.

The picture looks pretty photoshopped to me. The shadows on the front tripod look off...

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Strava

To be fair, the OP didn't say it was a bad choice, he said it was depressing. And you seem to corroborate that.

Yes, to each their own, but if we all decide to stop riding on the roads, don't you think there's a real possibility that cyclists will eventually lose their current rights to ride on the roads and/or laws will change requiring that roads be closed for cycling events, which will certainly limit the number of races that use roads?

As to the ad in question, if I have to pedal in a stationary position, as long as it's above 50 degrees outside I'd prefer riding stationary outside instead of inside looking at a screen.

Somehow, I managed to survive about 4,000 road miles this year here in Death Race New Jersey. I only ride indoors so I can more enjoy riding outdoors.

Every cyclist who decides to forego riding on roads threatens the rights and safety of those of us who choose to ride on roads. Thanks!

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"Go yell at an M&M"

But our weeknight worlds crew has still been meeting on the dry cold nights out of the brewery.

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I was shocked the route that Raleigh Brewing Company takes during rush hour traffic ride time on some of the busiest roads in Raleigh....Chapel Hill Road / Blue Ridge / Lake Boone Trail....atleast on the one time I rode that ride but I bailed onto the greenway to get back fairly quickly after realizing the route they were taking. Was kinda scratching my head why they ride the roads they do, but each their own. That can be as silly imo. But I guess they'll say they "legally" have the right to ride those roads as cars do. And I wont disagree, but my take is "just because you can, doesn't mean you always should".

ETA: I'll stick to PNC Arena during the winter months (and year round) and in the spring/summer months go on shop rides that get more "outside" the city than apparently these brewery rides do. To each their own.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Actually, even sub-freezing is better than inside. I HATE the hamster wheel. But, when the weather turns to shit...35F / rain...or below freezing...I'll put the trainer on the front porch. I ride with bike shorts, and ski gloves. Usually, I'll warmup with a long sleeve jersey. Once I get into a 2x20 or whatever...the jersey comes off.

Might be an interesting sight...50 year old dude, riding a TT bike, on a trainer, in bike shorts with ski gloves, no top, and a heart strap, with neoprene booties. Maybe I should put on my helmet. :-)

Excellent! I've considered riding on the porch many times but am too worried about what the neighbors will think. Thanks for the inspiration!

My thought exactly. Another 10 pages of people that don't understand why I ride bikes telling me how great indoor riding is.

Still better than the Peleton ads

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

I thought this was going to be about Rapha's new indoor cycling collection.

https://www.rapha.cc/...gory/indoor-training

Oh I thought it was going to be 10 pages of you purists telling the zwifters they aren't really riding their bikes, blah blah blah.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

This thing that I do, this thing is awesome. That thing that you do - that thing sucks.

I have kids that I like to keep an eye on while they play outside with their friends. I'm not above putting my trainer on the deck and riding while. I don't do this all the time but it's better than not riding at all.

"Every cyclist who decides to forego riding on roads threatens the rights and safety of those of us who choose to ride on roads. Thanks!"


Ok so if I get killed riding on the roads who will be paying my wife my lost income if I am no longer there to work? Oh right no one. So I will continue to choose to ride where I feel most safe. Sorry I am selfish with my safety and my life...

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Twitter - Instagram

you just summed up the internet. Well done. Take the rest of the day off.

Many itu pro's will ride trainers at very kick ass "exotic" locations race week (i'd be very curious who the model/athlete is in the picture). They have their course familiarization ride but beyond that many will simply hit up the trainer. How many pro's or AG'ers get hit in Kona each year pre-riding the course?

ETA: And I just noticed it was a feedback ad which those things are awesome. Those trainers are so light weight and so it kinda makes sense to showcase riding an trainer in "paradise". It's pretty good advertising that the OP made a note of a guy riding a trainer in "paradise".....essentially the design of the ad worked......and they are so light weight, easily to travel with. Other trainers not so much.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

If you get killed riding on the roads, you will unfortunately have been exceedingly unlucky, as the odds are so against that actually happening.

Not that this is about you or any particular individual, of course.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

How bout....ride inside...ride outside...I don't care as long as people get to do the training and feel safe. I have done over 3 hours on the trainer indoors and I enjoy riding outside. When I just want to get it done and dont want to think about my clothing, my tire pressure, nutrition, deal with lights and wind and and and ....even in in place like DK where there are lots of bike paths I just get on my trainer where I can do my workout anytime of the day that suits me. ...oh and before I forget....I have been knocked off my bike once already, almost hit numerous times and one bike crash which sent my wife into a panic when she saw the road rash...so yeah I get the safety reasons for staying indoors.

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"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"

So how often have you contributed to family's of cyclists that were killed?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Seeing the picture, this was going to be my immediate response.

Based on the Specialized logos, World Champ stripes, and that bike: It's Flora Duffy and I'm willing to bet she's just spinning her legs prior to a race. In this instance it makes sense: unfamiliar place, controlled workload, efficiency of time, etc.

Not saying others do not do this, but in this instance I think there is a very reasonable explanation.

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I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com

Again: Not that this is about you or any particular individual, of course. Nor is it about me.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

No I was asking because you made a very specific comment (almost faulting cyclists who move off the road for whatever reason), so I was curious how far you took with that advocacy statement/philosophy. You very much called out cyclists who moved indoors, so I was calling you out on your own advocacy.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

But you made this about me and "every cyclist who decides to forego riding on roads". So that is me and many people I know because training indoors is very efficient and there is a 0% chance of me getting hit by a car. I agree that I would be against the odds if I got killed but I can make sure I am not unlucky by not riding outside if I do not feel safe doing it.

So you can keep riding outside but don't say shit like that to people who chose riding indoors because they want to be safer, or more time efficient, or just because they want to.

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Twitter - Instagram

Last comment, and you can have the final words.

The *net effect* of cyclists riding exclusively indoors is to reduce the freedom (fewer safe roads, less input into road/traffic design, greater restrictions on where cyclists are allowed) and safety (less familiarity of cyclists to drivers, less expectation of encountering cyclists by drivers) of those cyclists who wish to ride outdoors. Argument ad absurdum: you think the last cyclist who wants to ride outdoors will have *any* right to do so in a safe manner whatsoever?

Don't want to ride outdoors? Fine, ride indoors. Just don't think that the cumulative effect is negligible to the rest of the cyclists who ride the roads.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

While I don't totally disagree with your premise, I do think there is an important point that's not discussed, which is the type of rider that's involved.

Bike-friendly infrastructure upgrades are rarely (possibly never) given because of needed bike upgrades for people like US, meaning that we ride for both training and enjoyment. Our frequency is just not high enough on the roads, no matter where we go.

In contrast, commuting-purpose infrastructure upgrades are the main consideration. If there are lot of bike commuters, or the city wants more of them, they can spend the money to upgrade. In countries where bike commuting is big-time like in the city of Copenhagen, the bikes actually get priority on road design.

So while the general premise of 'more cyclists on the road = more friendly drivers and better infrastructure" is generally correct, I think the reality of the improvements are nearly negligible when it comes to us. Even if every single Zwift user went out and did outdoor rather than indoor riding, I am seriously skeptical it would make any difference in road safety or infrastructure upgrades.

I wouldn't go biking somewhere I am not familiar with or that is potentially dangerous.

Disagree. MAMILs are generally financially successful and politically powerful compared to the average citizen. If everyone who is riding primarily indoors year-round would ride outside more and spend more $ and time advocating for safer roads for cycling it would make a difference. There's no chance of that happening if everyone decides it's too dangerous and retreats to their caves to pedal in place for the rest of their lives.

If everyone who is riding Zwift or Peloton would ride outside more and spend $ and time advocating for safer roads for cycling it would make a difference.

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I'd argue that at one time everyone was riding outdoors and doing their "advocacy" by being present outdoors on their bikes. How did that work out? Now it seems those same people don't think it worked out enough that they are choosing safer options.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I live in Southern California. First I think the premise is bullshit, but second I'd argue that more cyclists outside acting like assholes, as many do, pose a far greater threat to the rest of us than those riding away inside. I'm a cyclist and I see cyclist douchebaggery all the time when I am driving

I don't ride in groups larger than 2 -4 . Even then I'm often pretty much the only one that even makes an attempt to stop at stop signs. There are people that grip about the bad drivers in my area, but more often than not when I stop at a sign, even a car with the right of way will wave me through.

I used to ride outside a lot more. Then I got hit by a drunk driver at 1:30 on a weekday afternoon with light traffic in an area that cyclists use a lot. Then I cut it to once a week. Then even waking up at the ass crack of dawn would get my buzzed countless times and said f this. Only way for me to control not getting hit by a car is not riding outside.

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Twitter - Instagram

Advocacy is more than just being present outdoors on bikes. Women and blacks were present in the U.S. for a lot of years before they got the right to vote. Mothers were present in the U.S. for a lot of years before they decided to do more to help curtail drunk driving.

If you want to say riding outside isn't important enough to me to take more action, that's OK. As someone who has experienced the freedom to ride on the roads safely (but not without fear) for more than 50 years, I'm glad I've had that opportunity and feel some need to try to urge others to not let that freedom be potentially taken away by their fellow citizens who would gladly have cyclists off the roads.

If I’m one of the most famous people on a tiny island nation, I might do the same sometimes so I can focus on my workout.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

Mark I'm not saying it's not important enough. I'm saying I've seen where we were a culture of outdoor riding and huge advocacy's for our own safety for generations (you honestly don't think we've already been advocating for our own safety/presence?????).....and that difference did what for us???

-we are at a point where more and more outdoor cyclists are having to decide just how "safe" they actually are.


So I was more or less saying we've have the greatest numbers of advocacy for ourselves already imo with # of cyclists on the road and that did what difference? We've created cities with bike lanes, we've pushed for better advocacy of biker safety, etc etc. So I'm questioning your "make a difference" point. I'd argue we've seen just how much it has or hasn't helped in the fact that people who LOVE outdoor riding have to make decisions based on their "safety".

So when I hear someone like you or Ken seemingly sorta slap the wrists of people riding indoors now for their own safety (as if it's their fault your less safe now), I kinda push back on that.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Brooks,

I don't think we should give up. Freedom comes with risks. I ride with fear, so I understand. One of these days I'll stop commenting on these threads.

Mind you I'm not giving up. I've been hit 2.5 times over my 20+ years as a "cyclist"; not counting riding bike as a kid, etc (I say 0.5 times cus I was side swapped and actually didn't get hurt, thank god my junior athlete who was with us didnt either, everyone at the intersection was "WTF" to the driver who sped off) and ride outdoors 90% of my own riding time.


But I dont ride like I used to, I dont just go out the door and ride whatever. I either ride in a group or ride in a "closed" traffic area. I won't go ride alone anymore.

And no I don't resort to indoor riding much, my squad does once a week usually (more for ease in the winter), but even when it's winter and cold I put them outdoors most of the time, but again in a setting that I think is as safe as possible.....ie we drive to different locations to get to "safer" options.

So I'm just saying that I think we've had our biggest likely impact already and it has led to this "indoor" movement. So I need to see more from you to believe now we can "make a difference". I think we've already likely had our chance and we saw what that led to.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I hear ya. When I lived in Japan for a few years I was scared for my life every time I tried to ride.

Fwiw I usually do the wnw Raleigh thing in daylight months and indoor or solo weekends other times. I TT the arena sometimes while folks do laps.

I’ve asked them to change the route a dozen times to no avail. They don’t change it because the other options are hillier.

I have good stuff in town. But the heavier boys don’t care for it.

A near zero traffic one turn loop by N Hills that’s 2 miles a lap. But, 100 feet per mile elevation.

Well not exactly zero.

I wonder if gravel cyclists are looked at the same way as often we’re on roads where there is basically zero traffic

I thought this was going to be about the ridiculousness of "gravel" riding on zwift

You could well be right. I'm not ready to give up hope. I see good things happening regarding cycling safety in my community. As I was staring at the black line in the pool this evening and starting to feel the holiday spirit after our office party, I concluded that it is important to celebrate physical fitness, whether it is obtained on the roads, in the gym or in the pain cave. Peace and joy to all!

While I see the value of riding for a structured workout and I will do some when I have to when the weather sucks, as long as the weather is good, then I am going outdoors. Cars don't bother me. I was run over by a bus last year and I am over it, and OK riding outdoors. If I die riding it's good, it was worth all the amazing riding I did in my life in amazing places around the world. We will all die so getting run over and dying on a bike is a good option relative to cancer or rotting in a bed. We all have to die anyway and the riding reward vs risk is worth the reward.

...
I am very much the same as you Dev although now that it is cricket season I'll be spending more time on the trainer.A mate of mine used to be the coroner in Penticton and I would joke with him that if they ever find me dead on the side of the road they can just roll me into the woods for the critters to deal with and he can have my bike. :-)

I have been hit a lot and I am surprised I am still around to tell the tales but my only fear is surviving a really bad crash,I'd prefer the lights to go out quickly. I have actually started hitching my trailer to my bike for every ride now and people seem to be kinder to me when I'm dragging that damned thing.I even put Christmas lights on it today. :-)

Just another person I'll put a little time into at every corner, turn around, aid station, etc. where they actually have to "ride" their bicycle.
And then probably lose a lot more time to on the straits because they train more effectively than me, lol.

This has been beaten to death, but here's one more take:

I ride my road bike indoors because it isn't 1) advisable to ride the roads where I live (no shoulder, a ton of rednecks that will try to run you off the road on pretty much any ride any time, awful pavement, few people to ride with to create a larger group/peloton for cars to have to respect) and because 2) I have a long commute and a reasonable amount of working hours, and so the extra time spent at stoplights, stop signs, planning a route, etc is not an effective use of my already limited cycling time.

I do have good mountain biking around here, so I've got good enough handling from the time I've put in there.

For those of you bragging about putting a lot of time into the indoor people when they "actually have to ride their bike" in races, you would do well to check the results of some of the folks posting here. I'm not sure high quality cornering is going to bridge the gap from 22 to 27mph, unless you're racing downhill.

For those who are wondering why the indoor people race at all, why do you care? That's a huge part of the issue with this sport, and why I did leave it for a while. People do what they can with their available situation to be able to show up and race, and a lot of you are advocating for them to hang it up because they don't ride outside. Then, I'll see a thread next week wondering why participation was down in 2019 (or similar).

The bottom line is that I enjoy competing in triathlon, and I'm able to put in 3-5h of effective, intense bike training indoors and race at a high level.

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"Don't you have to go be stupid somewhere else?"..."Not until 4!"

https://i.imgflip.com/e94sv.jpg[\img]

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

I am pretty sure that is Bermuda. Your tune would change if you have ever tried to ride there.

Have you ever tried rinko? Obviously it wouldn't work for everyday training, but the experience sounds pretty neat (have read some cool reports by Jan Heine, Velo Orange, etc).

I have ridden 4091 miles so far this year, and of those maybe 25 were on the road, about 125 on gravel and the rest on Zwift. I am scared when I ride outside and whether that is a reasonable thought is irrelevant here, but most of all I ride on the trainer because otherwise I could not. Tonight I rode about 30 miles after 9pm. My wife is working at the hospital, and the boys went to bed around 7:45pm. I then cleaned up dishes etc, and when all was quiet I jumped on my Wahoo Kickr. But earlier today I got to run 12.25 miles outside. This week, thanks to indoor options I managed 17 hours of working out.

I like riding indoors and I like riding outdoors.
I like running outside and I like running inside.
I like sushi and I like cheeseburgers.

Things don't have to be mutually exclusive.

I think we should, as humans, be encouraging and supportive of anyone who's trying to better themselves, regardless of how they choose to do it.

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http://www.howesgreg.com

Well said

A poster said it earlier, but traveling with an Omnium trainer is a common practice for pros on the ITU circuit. They have to race at a very high level, yet they're often racing in locations where they a) do not have enough time or resources to find safe riding routes or b) do not want to compromise their training intensity on unfamiliar roads.

Klaus is spot on, this is Flora Duffy training in Bermuda. Her home turf. Likely in the days leading up to her dominating cycling leg which helped her win the race. Slowtwitch covered it HERE.

At Patrick Lange's homestay here in TX during his Kona training camp, I saw an Omnium that he travels with. So, it's not only the ITU pros....

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Lars Finanger
Odyssey SwimRun

+1

There are probably more than 100 threads on here endlessly debating the merits of indoor vs outdoor training and the answer is ALWAYS, "it depends".

What does it depend on? Your goals, your tolerance for boredom, your physical location, and your risk tolerance, among others. There are so many variables here and no right answer. It's silly to chastise someone for getting off the couch and riding on a trainer even if the conditions are good enough to ride outside. ANY riding is infinitely better than not doing anything. So pick whatever motivates you to action and helps you enjoy the ride.

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Strava

I have no problem with people that ride indoors, I do it myself. I understand it's safe, I understand it is efficient and I understand it can be an effective way to improve. I'm just baffled by how eager so many here are to sing it's praises every time it comes up. Let's try a different analogy:

Me: I like scuba diving
ST: Me too, I'm in the pool 3 times a week.
Me: That's not really what I meant, I like exploring open water
ST: But the pool is so much more time efficient, I just jump in and I'm scuba diving.
Me: True, but that isn't why I scuba dive.
ST: The pool is so much safer, no boats or sharks or any of that scary stuff.
Me: Again, true but that isn't really why I like doing it.
ST: But I can train in the pool every day and become a great scuba diver.
Me: Again, true...sigh...never mind.

Well just be consistent and also add “your not really scuba diving” cus that’s certainly something I read from the “outdoors” is better crowd. So both sides certainly have their struggles with boasting and clowning the other side.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Are you suggesting Zwift create a Scuba diving version ?

You will be lying on the floor, moving legs, and looking at fish and old sick boat on the screen ? With a virtual reality device ?

In your analogy above both sides clearly state their position and why they choose one method or another. It's ok for you to want to scuba dive in the ocean because you want to explore, and it's also ok for someone else to scuba in the pool because it offers the same sensation of weightlessness, breathing underwater, and (drifting away from the analogy a bit) fitness benefits. People sing the praises of indoor training because it helps them accomplish their goals, which may include fitness, training for races,etc. and they could care less about exploring the outdoors. For you the goals are in a different order and that's also ok.

Can we just end the thread(s) now?

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Strava

That's why it's probably best to ride both indoors and outdoors :)

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Strava

There's a saying in my business: Analogies suck. This is Exhibit A.

But, the government and locals don't like open water scuba divers very much. Claims they get in the way of them fishing, jet skiiing, sailing, and doing whatever else. And since they don't see many people open water scuba anyway, why should they give them any rights or resources? Most of them are indoors at the pool, right? If there were a bunch of open water scuba people, we could see spending resources and giving them some space to do their thing.

How about another analogy:

I like frolicking with naked women.. If only there was a way to watch that on some sort of screen device from the comfort of my own home without the hassles of going out into the real world and doin' it for real..

Nah, that'd never catch on.

I'm sure it would catch on but I doubt anybody would be here claiming it was better than the actual frolicking