You don't need one.

If you want one, there are a myriad of reasons to justify it that are different for everyone.

Given your use case, a true PM probably wouldn't be a game changer. For the bike leg of a tri, it would allow you to meter effort a little more precisely...hr and rpe can be fooled sometimes. But, if you've been doing it that way already, you know the limitations.

But, for indoor training your dumb trainer with speed/virtual power is good enough to measure /control effort.

I'm not saying don't get a PM, I've had one since 2002 or so. It would still be an incremental improvement... Just not quite as revolutionary as it would be for someone who rides outdoors more.

you don't need one as others have said. I certainly find it useful for half and full distance triathlons in particular. I find it less useful on my gravel bike as I feel with gravel biking RPE plays a much larger role for me as gravel biking really beats up your entire body. I still look at the numbers during and after though.

“Convince you, you need a power meter”.....well you want to improve at a better rate than you have been..?

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Pat Green
Green Multisport Training

What are your bike splits like compared to others?

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blog

I do, but wondering how a power metre will help. Am happy to buy one, just need to know what it will do for me.

If you want to try something new to improve. then go for it.
It's not like the toy doesn't work, the vast majority of pros in cycling and most pro triathletes use it.
You can get one for less than $450. easily. Up to you to try...
oh !It won't do anything for you. You have to do everything still...


Louis :)

I had a conversation with an athlete about PM's.

To me it's all about how applicable the user (you) is going to actually use the PM to it's advantage.

I think it's helpful in that it's one of the better "metrics" vs HR or RPE. I think it's a great pacing tool for half/IM athletes no doubt.


However, I think it's an tool that actually needs some user input and it's more of an advanced tool than just a HR meter. I think you have to know what to do with the data, etc. But if your using TR it would be applicable to just replace HR or RPE with watts,etc.


Here's something that could be useful in road racing:

-so you get to the finale and you figure out how much watts it is taking to at the end. You then have an metric to work on far more superior than just effort or HR. So you wouldnt necessarily have to "ride to a specific number" (you wouldn't have to use it actively in the race if you didn't want to, you could have it as a background info collecting data point) with it, but you could use the data learned from the race to apply it to your training. But I guess it depends on how much "next level" you actually want to get with specifics. IMO that's what the PM can do for you.

-Super great for "pacing" on half's.


But I'm also one of those people that if I gotta convince you to get it, your probaly not going to want to get it. Just purchasing it and using it isn't necessarily going to make you "better". To me you have to know what to do with the numbers that the PM is spitting out that is the value in a PM.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

This

All power meters do is give you an additional set of #s. It's up to you to interpret what those #s mean and apply that knowledge thru training and racing.

RPE is pretty close. HR is closer. Power is closer still.

M

I am a recreational level roadie and started watching threads with Cat 3's and up discuss training and these threads always referenced data. I got my first PM in 2008, been compiling data and watching trends with structured and unstructured training since 08 and appreciate the data.

But I am a former competitive lifter that was always been numbers based (weights, reps, sets) and have many years worth of daily hand written detailed training sessions. The only thing that was guessed was bar velocity. So training without a power meter in my view is about like lifting weights with nothing written on the plate and just guessing about how much it weighs.

If I am prescribed to do 8 x 5 min. L5 intervals I want to know that I am somewhere in the ballpark. I found out that before getting a PM I would try to go 20 min. at L4. When I got the first PM I realized L4 was harder than I imagined L4. :-) Then I recognized how much I was fading in those last minutes. Using a PM helped fine tune my training and for me, my N=1, it turned out to be a good investment. Now 3 power meters on 3 bikes. :-) I can gauge my training load ramp rate better along with other aspects. Not perfect, but better than when I was guessing.

However, like those posting here I have plenty of friends that do well in competition based on perceived effort. So I am not pushing getting one.

Here is a different perspective. I never wanted a power meter. Started riding on Zwift with a dumb-trainer. Bought a smart trainer 3 months later. 1 year after that, I bought Assioma PM pedals. After riding on Zwift and training by power numbers, I really felt I was missing something being outside without my power numbers. Did I need a PM? No. But it does make my riding that much more enjoyable as my indoor and outdoor training are more in-sync. Also when ride/racing with my T/Th group, it is good to have my power and know how hard I should push while not blowing up.

Spend your money on a KickR or H3 or similar.

If you do more of your training inside then that will make a bigger difference, just in feel and also give you more accurate power if it annoys you with the virtual power (which may or may not be accurate, also this may or may not matter anyway :) )

Best thing I ever did was get a decent trainer, just the feel of it makes me want to ride indoors.

Hello

1) buy a book, such as "Training and racing with a power meter" (Allen & Coggan)
2) read it
3) if you understand the benefits, and are willing to train and race using such a tool, then buy one. If you don't understand, or think you don't want to train or race that way, don't buy it

A power meter is a powerful tool, but only if you understand how to use it (or have a coach to understand and drive you).
Its usage is studied for 30 years+ now, and a lot of knowledge is derived from this studies.
You are not going to be able to use it correctly if you don't learn about it, or if you don't have a coach who know how to work with it.

Seriously, many peoples have a power meter and clearly don't have a clue how to use it efficiently to reach their objectives.
In french we say "comme une poule avec une fourchette"

Excellent post IMO

Before I got my first PM (a very old wired PowerTap wheel) I bought the TRWPM book, followed threads on the topic and thought for sure I was sold on moving that direction or so I thought. I had the PM for almost a year before I gave up some bad habits and moved toward refined structured training. That was a real struggle to make a choice to use this as a tool to learn and refine training.

Best choice I ever made and I am not even a competitor.

If your indoor training is based on your RPE you're fooling yourself. The P in the RPE is simply not as accurate as you think it is. You get a sniffle, you don't eat enough, you got 7 hr of sleep instead of 8, it's muggy in the basement, whatever. Nobody lifts weights to RPE, they hit their numbers. Intervals on the trainer should be the same way. You either hit the number or you didn't. Who gives a flip how you perceived the effort. You did it or you didn't.

Read the book "Training and Racing with a Power Meter." You should be pretty convinced after that.

OR, if you're in my age group and signed up for the same race(s) that I am, then by all means, please continue to train off of RPE.

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- Jordan

My Strava

Just to be clear, I use a dumb trainer, but I also use trainer road and their virtual power. I have been doing structured training for the last five years based on the virtual power and trainer road programs. My watts per kg is 3.9 right now, trying to get that over four for when I age up to the 50-54 age group this summer (which is why I am re-examining my training right now).

I know the virtual power isn’t all that accurate, but it is repeatable.

I only use RPE or heart rate when outdoors racing or group riding (which is rare).

My question was basically to understand how a PM would change my training. It sounds like it would not (since I am not going to use it outdoors for structured training).

However, it also sounds like it would help pacing on TTs or the bike leg of triathlons.

Sounds like it could also just provide interesting info post outdoor rides/races which may be instructive. I like numbers and analysis so I can see expanding or modifying my approach with some extra info.

I take the point that a smart trainer might be a better investment - that is partly why I asked about PMs, as I am considering one or the other.

Thanks for all the advice and information.

those sound like good reasons to factor in RPE. If your body can't handle a certain workload on the day, for whatever reason, maybe it's a good idea to scale back. Or maybe you feel great that day, so go harder.

Same thing with weights. People use RPE all the time in weights. Throw 100# on the bench press, some days you might be sore and its too heavy, some days that might be easy and you can handle more so you can put an extra couple of plates on to hit your target # of reps. You don't just blindly do the number of reps and weight that's on the program for that day.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

There are several things you can do with a power meter, some of which require a fair amount of studying or a high level of data quality, and some that don't. Training indoors to a structured program doesn't require much analytical skill, nor is it a particularly demanding application -- that's an advantage for many: it's kinda brainless at a time when you're trying to concentrate on completing a workout (this is why ergo workouts or FEC-controlled workouts are so popular -- you don't have to do much thinking at a time when your blood is needed elsewhere). If all you want to do is train indoors, you've already got a dumb trainer and a speed sensor and that's perfectly fine. Your goal of getting up above 3.9 w/kg isn't being held back by the lack of a smart trainer or a power meter. Training your FTP indoors is one of the least-demanding things you can do with a power meter -- you've been doing structured training indoors for 5 years without one.

The advantage of an on-bike power meter over a smart trainer is that it allows you to go outdoors, with all that entails: not only training, but also being able to analyze race data and efforts, and (if the data quality are high enough) to analyze aero and rolling drag. But these are much more advanced applications and not many people do them, which is why all of the previous answers only focus on using power to train. Most people who use power meters pretty much use them like they used to use HRMs.

A power meter won't get you to your goal by itself. It's just a device that measures power. It's not a bolt-on motor.

So you got a sniffle/it's very hot/you didn't eat or sleep enough but you still batter through your power based session regardless. You make yourself ill and miss a weeks training? I appreciate what you are saying but don't think we should dismiss RPE out of hand.

Guardian,

You ever thought....”I am doing my best speed and I’m crushing it.....” only to get done and realize you were actually not in HR zone/speed as usual/not that fast..?? A power is great for training ( especially on a trainer ) because it takes all the guess work out of “how well am I performing today”..!! You are either putting out or your not. Do some very hard interval work on prescribed rest and you will improve.

PG

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Pat Green
Green Multisport Training

Justicebeaver wrote:

Nobody lifts weights to RPE, they hit their numbers.

Depends. Perceived exertion can be a pretty big part of lifting. Serious lifters are very "aware" of what their bodies are doing. Numbers are a huge part too. They work together. If you're "hitting your numbers" but it feels easy, you try a little more. If it's a struggle and form is breaking down, you drop down. Numbers are a tool and a suggestion. Just like in cycling.

Quote:

Who gives a flip how you perceived the effort.

No one cares what your power numbers are either. If you need #'s to keep yourself honest, then great. Not everyone does.


And I'm saying this as someone who has like 5 power meters and 12 years of data :)

Have had a powermeter fpor 7 yrs, used with TR and Zwift. Before that, trained pretty much by RPE for 5 years before that.

I'd say that you def can't dismiss RPE, as good as PMs are. My results with RPE were just as good as my PM results.

In fact, my last training block was done with Matt Dixon's "Fast-Track Triathlete" HIM book plan, and while I definitely had power for all my bike sessions indoors & out, all the hard workouts were basically RPE. Like "1 minute VERY hard, rest, 5' hard" etc. I did zero erg sessions during the entire block, so you could argue I didn't even need a smart trainer, but for sure, the Kickr was very helpful for simulating hills and I was extremely well prepared for my hilly bike race course.

I'd say OP should definitely get a PM though - if he's doing lots of structured TR, then it makes perfect sense to just extend those results to outdoors. Might also be a reality check on virtualpower vs actual power results, which is often humbling! (My Virtual power was +75 watts higher than my real power....) PMs are actually not that expensive anymore - you can get a Favero Uno for <$500 and likely use it for 10yrs (my PT hub is pushing that long) so long gone are the $1500 powermeter days. The Conti Tires on my bike were nearly half the cost of that powermeter.

The PM is also supremely useful in comparing results across time and courses. Nearly impossible to get good data on that without a PM.

I agree with a lot of the responses to the thread.

Get a good smart trainer and look at power indoors. When you are outside, use PE.

But you do TRY for what's on the program when you lift. Because the point is to lift more weight (Even if you just want to get swole the mechanism for doing that is lifting more weight). Sometimes you don't get it, sometimes it's easier than you expected. But the weight lifted is the work done regardless of how it felt. And the power you put out is the speed you go (assuming your weight doesn't change mid ride)

RPE is still relevant. If your RPE for the scheduled interval is higher than expected or if you fail to achieve the intervals scheduled you may be getting sick. You may not be ready for the increased workload. Maybe you didn't eat enough to perform well. So you adjust your training from there. But if you only use RPE you don't know where your "there" is.

At least that's how I do it. I will admit that approaching intervals on the trainer with progressive overload in mind is directly affected by my days lifting heavy. So maybe it's not the best way but I am getting faster.

Yeah, and if you're on a dumb trainer, the work done is the work done regardless of whether you can see the numbers.

Try this for a thought experiment. You go to a new gym and there's no numbers on any equipment. Do you think you could still get an effective workout in?

What about guys like me, when I go to the gym I don't typically follow a program, just a rough outline of what I want to work on that day (actually I haven't had time to go in months, but that's another issue), and I rarely do the same exercises in the same order. The actual numbers on the weights don't really mean that much when you are always changing things anyway. Typically the first set is a "calibration", the next 2-4 sets are the work.

I still get stronger, but without the hassle of meticulously recording anything.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

How do you know you are getting stronger?

Not to get all philosophical, if I purely did it the way I describe, with no numbers on anything and I had such a short memory that I couldn't remember what I lifted week to week, then I wouldn't actually know if I got stronger. I would only be able to believe I got stronger.

There would be a reasonable basis for that belief if other facts indicated that it was very likely that I was getting stronger. e.g. I could do a greater number of pushups or pullups,

eta - there are also plenty of things in the weight room that don't have numbers attached, or the numbers are variable. heavy ropes, resistance bands, bodyweight exercises....

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Body weight exercises and resistance bands have known weights. Your body has a known weight. So if you do more reps at a defined resistance you have quantitative evidence that you are getting stronger. If you lose 10 lbs and do more reps on a body weight exercise you know absolutely nothing about how your ability to apply force has changed.

I'm not saying you can't get faster with a dumb trainer. I'm just saying having a consistent, repeatable measurement of your power output to compare against RPE is dramatically more effective than RPE alone.

I will however admit that heavy ropes are a thing that exists in gyms. They make a lot of noise and make you out of breath. They can produce a high RPE but they are not particularly effective at adapting your muscles to producing more force.

Hence why I said believe, not know.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

x whatever on buying one of the major power meter training books, reading them cover to cover, then ask yourself if that's something you want to get into. Because unless you have a coach analyzing the data for you, you're going to have to do it yourself. Some applications (both free and paid) can help you bridge the gap on analysis, but there is still a requirement for you to load all the data diligently, digest the results, then apply what you've learned to your next workout or your next race.

How do you judge your self worth as a human being without being able to accurately calculate your FTP or w/kg?

Strava ;-)

You don’t *NEED* a power meter.

Just like you don’t *NEED* a smartphone (or a cell phone of any type)

You don’t *NEED* internet access

None of the above things are truly needed. However each of those technological advancements have made certain aspects of life more effective/efficient, and have allowed each of us better insight than we ever would have thought was possible.

It will make you faster

I am in the same boat than you, 99% of my riding is on TR with a "dumb" trainer and wondering if a powermeter would help me in any way. I always felt that the "virtual power" number might not be accurate but are consistent and that the accuracy of the powermeter would be dismissed by the inaccuracy of the dumb trainer/tire/tire pressure combo. The argument that it would be useful for pacing on HIM it only appears to be true to me if you train with it outdoors too, i don't think ( and I could very well be wrong) that whatever numbers a powermeter would give me from a dumb trainer could be transferred to a real ride outside? I guess I am not helping with your decision, just my 2 cents, sorry.

In my n=1 personal experience, the PM didn't make me significantly faster after coming from TR+dumb trainer on virtualpower (was on a reliable Cycleops Fluid2). I was pushing pretty hard on workouts prior to the PM, so even on a great TR super hard block I was lucky to get even 5 watts added after killing myself on a lot of the workouts.

Still, at $500 for an Assioma Uno, I think it's a great investment, as they are still very valuble for outdoor workout tracking, race execution AND analysis, and all that good stuff mentioned above, even if it doesn't make you a ton faster.

I have lots of tech now, but honestly, in my 12 years of tri, having done quite a few programs from TR superstructure, to freeform 'no-plan', I think it all comes down to how much hard training you can put in with good recovery. For sure, a powermeter or even a structured training program won't give you a warp boost in performance unless you were slacking off pretty good to begin with.

Life is meaningless suffering.

I don't need a PM, but I can't live without it. I'm lost without the power data even on my easy 2 mile commute. There were times I moved my pedal PM to my commute bike just to see how much power and calories I actually used in those 10 easy minutes on my single speed cruiser. Heart rate just didn't cut it when estimating calories.

I'm at the age when a PM just won't help me anymore in training. I'm declining and the PM just tells me that.

However, I've found some uses for the PM to try and get 'free speed'. I have an 8 mile loop that is very flat on a bike trail. I have done the loop at my Ironman pace (not power) which for 8 miles is quite easy. Then I check the power. I will do this loop with different clothes, helmets, water bottles, etc. and check the change in power. Just a few weeks ago, I did the loop with a regular jersey over my tri suit and discovered a 5 watt increase. That doesn't sound like much, but over an IM distance, it will make a difference. A few years ago, my neighbor and I did 5 of these loops with different things. It was a cold morning and one loop, I put a sweat shirt over my tri kit...that added 20 watts!!!

This is incredibly sad.



Not as sad as my ftp. But still pretty sad.

Interesting that in this thread up to now there is only talk about PM and PE.
HR has not been mentioned.

Some here criticize that if you use a PM, you do not factor in the shape you're in on the day.
Whereby HR does exactly that: it measures the intensity of the body, it works like a PM which factors in the shape you're in.

Also people seem to have forgotten that you can also use HR when running.

A PM alone will not help.....a PM with a training plan will help you a ton.

I have had a PM since 2013 and my wife....finally.....made the jump to training with power this year and a smart trainer. She has gotten faster in a short amount of time than training with HR alone. PM's are a great tool but you have to train with a plan and know what the numbers are telling you.

Yesterday I went out for only a 15min ride to test out the new Jet 6+ wheels. Having new bling makes you peppy.

There's a little false flat downhill to the house right after a fast sweeping downhill. I use it as a "leadout" to a sprint for home.

Being able to see 4 digit numbers on the head unit can be motivating to dig a little longer for that 5-second power PR.

Also good for the Strava street cred to post up real 4-digit numbers for a ride.

I was in a similar boat: TrainerRoad with a dumb trainer and virtual power for a couple years, then got a power meter. Training-wise, the main difference was that I found virtual power to be off by like 30-40 watts, regardless of wattage. Since everything was based on FTP, which I got by testing with virtual power, it meant that intervals close to FTP were as difficult as the should be. Sprints well above FTP were actually easier than they should have been, and I was overdoing it on all my rest intervals. So I'd say that the power meter helped me achieve the correct stimulus for any workout.
The other big thing was getting power numbers for my outdoor rides and races. I need to pick up a new copy of the aforementioned book, as I lost mine, but it's good for analysis after the fact, even if you aren't religiously following a race plan.

Get one. Seriously, just get one.

I have a 4iiii single sided PM that I paid ~$300 for on sale, and it's the best purchase I made this year.

The feedback has led me to change my cadence/gearing, as well as my riding style. I found I was pushing way too hard on uphills and letting my power drop a lot on even easy downhill grades. Evening that up has helped a lot.

It will, of course, allow you to Zwift if you are so inclined; which (IMO) is loads better than watching videos or staring at a wall.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)