Ryf was wearing ASICS and Lawrence and Simmons were wearing Next %. Ryf is just damn good shoes don’t matter. I think Brownlee had a chance if he was wearing Next % and I’m not joking.

How many of the men's top 10 finishers were wearing Vaporfly Next% or Vaporfly 4%? I didn't see all of the top 10 finishers cross the line, but of the ones I did see I saw 3 x Vaporfly Next% and 1 x Vaporfly 4%.

Even Starky was wearing the Next %

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I think you'll find in Kona pretty much every pro male and female NOT locked into a shoe contract will be in either the NEXT% or 4% Flyknit.

The evidence is pretty clear if you are running faster than 7:00/ml the benefit of them is there.

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David T-D
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Like aerodynamics it’s likely that benefit applies across all paces, not just sub 7.

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I wore mine with speed laces. It did not go well. The speed lacing caused my foot to arch inside shoe. The result was hobbling for 7 miles and almost running barefoot. They also made a 2in blister on my sole where the skin bunched up from it. I am guessing the offset lacing caused it

Talking to Starky at the awards he said the normal laces should be used, and he just added lace locks at the top. He also talked about speed lacing having an effect on the carbon plate. He is an engineer so I tend to trust his opinion.

It never happened in training runs but only had a mile with the speed laces. Also after about 25mi the sole looks barely worn. So much better than the 4s

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Everyone is wearing them that doesn't have a shoe sponsor requirement.

So you have to take the time to lace them up?

Additionally, is anyone using their "trainer version" of the shoe? I forget the name of it, but the shoe guy (who is a runner) at my store, told me to get the trainer version because the next % only last for 100 miles.

I’ll try starky’s idea of us pulling thru lace locks but otherwise yes.

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Here’s my experience with my 4% so far. I ran a minute faster yesterday at a local Sprint race. I’ve raced this same course many times so it’s pretty accurate.

Off the bike, springy feeling does help a lot. My legs are tired but I’m not dragging my legs like before. Right after T2, I passed a lot of people.

Lock Laces wouldn’t work with these. I tie my shoes just about right, so I can barely slip my feet in. If you don’t wear socks, they will dig into back of your ankle so it’s not a good idea.

Overall, my run time is improved and most of all, my legs are less tired and that’s what I love about them the most. One negative thing is if you are so tired and can’t lift your feet, you will definitely feel the carbon plates and they feel hard.

If you’re talking about the Zoomfly, which I refer to as the “2%” yes, as the 4% weren’t available in a size 14. I like them quite a bit for racing, but I’ve run one or two speed workouts in them and it’s actually weird to run slow in them during warmup/cool down.

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I put elastic laces in my Next % and have 2 long runs in them with no issues. Socks are a must because of the material of the upper. Personally I don’t make my laces very tight as I use orthotics which make for a snugger fit then just using the Nike insole.

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If you mean the Turbo 2, yes I am. It has the same foam without the carbon plate. They feel very similar to the Next but not as bouncy.

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Same. Last year I trained in the Pegasus Turbos and raced the 4%. On to Peg Turbo 2s and Next %. All excellent shoes.

Just noticed Lucy Charles was also in Next.

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This is only partly true. The Turbo 2 has a layer of ZoomX foam (similar to the 4% and Next%) and a layer of React foam, with no plate. It has the shape of the Pegasus, which is more nerrow than the Next%
The Zoomfly 3 looks has more of the shape of the Next%, has a carbon plate, but all React foam. It has a bouncy feeling, but is very heavy. Does hold up for many miles (I put a few hundred miles on it), but don't get the white upper since it looks like crap after 2 days.

Anyone wearing the next% without socks wothout issues?

Jeroen

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I tried and it was not good.

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Same. Sprint tri, decided to run the 5k sockless, got a terrible blister on my heel. Definitely will never do that again.

However, I do use lock laces, and haven't seen any issue there.

I used them with socks and laces in a 70.3 run withotu issue. I tried them sockless, with laces, in a sprint tri (5K run), without issue. I tried them again, sockless and with lock laces, in an OLY (10K run), and developed a toe blister that started barking at me around mile 2 or 3. The last half of the run was, . . . interesting :(

It won't work. Material is so stiff and harsh, it will cut through your skin and leave terrible blister.
Been there and done that.

You think his shoes cost him 2+ mins and slowed him down that much?

I think he might mean the - Zoom fly flyknit.
Has the full length carbon plate.
I got a pair and they are awesome. Did personal best times straight away (on less run training).
Does not look like they are going to make them any more. Probably cause they were such good value.

Anyone know if they are going to re-release them?

Zoom fly flyknit became the zoom fly 3.

The fly flyknit was the match for vaporfly : carbon midlayer & flyknit upper but react sole

The fly 3 is the match for next %: carbon midlayer, vaporweave upper(basically flyknit but waterproof fibers, so the shoe doesn't get heavy) but react sole


No idea what the plan is for the standard line , but if you really want flyknit in traditional fibers, you can go to nike.com -> Customize -> fly3 premium

In the fly3 premium, they will let you pick a traditional Flyknit base to bulid off of (as well as let you pick your color :) )

not so sure about this...

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I plan on doing at least one of my long runs before Kona in the Next%, and avg pace will probably be in the 7:15-7:20 range - will see how HR and perceived effort compare to that run in my 'normal' Hokas.

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I think they would have helped, but Brownlee is also in the middle of a massive Kona block and has been training far differently. I ran last year in the 4% and this year in the Next%. They are the best shoes I've ever run in and I have been setting PRs. They aren't taking multiple minutes off though for that half mary.

Don't discount Iden. He is a phenomenal athlete who happens to be training in a way that gives him better preparation for this type of event.

True I’m probably making too General a comment, but if the foam does provide the energy savings/return system Nike claims then that benefit would likely present across a wide range of paces.

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My n=1 is that the vaporfly works really well for me at my harder paces (i.e. I'm running faster and feel better compared to regular shoes) even if it's not a very fast pace (in a race, I'm running lower to mid 7's).

My sense is the benefit has more to do with mechanics than absolute pace (I don't have very good mechanics and am likely a pretty inefficient runner, and my form obviously gets better as I run at harder paces, at least up to a point). Tried a slow/easy run in the vaporflys as comparison and they did not feel so good (the cushion was nice, but they were a bit awkward and it seemed like I was fighting the shoe a bit).

Have you heard anything more? Ie any anecdata? I’ve seen times which don’t reflect anything special at more mortal paces.

Maurice

Iden would have won with no matter what running shoe he was wearing. He had a phenomenal race. My 2 cents is if iden and brownlee switched shoes, Iden still would have beaten him by a similar margin.

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I use the regular laces in the Nike 4%s and Nike Nexts. I attach the locking mechanism from Lace Locks but don't use elastic laces.

Personally, I don't like the Next's as much as the 4% shoes... I think that's related to the higher heel to toe drop in the 4% shoes.

Lock Lace type shoe strings work just fine with the Next %

Anecdotal. I feel like the faster you run the better the shoes feel. Just wearing them around the house feels horrible. Slow jog feels merely bad. But get up to aerobic and tempo and then threshold and they start to pop.

I think they have a sweet spot.

Eric

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My argument is that they're probably not helping much at easy easy run pace. Rather than thinking of it like aerodynamics, think of it like hydrodynamics and a hydroplane. Hydroplanes don't help you much, until they do, and then they help you a lot

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Take it for what it's worth, but I heard an interview with a UMass researcher, Wouter Hoogkamer, who apparently looked into this and claimed the 4%s were just as likely, if not more likely, to improve slower runners than the elite.

Here's a link to the interview, and within the link is a link to a spreadsheet to plug in certain bits of into to see your potential improvements in the 4%s. I don't think the Next%s had been released or tested at that time, but I recall him saying something along the lines that they were supposed to be more forgiving to the general runner and could create even more efficiencies than the 4%. Anecdotally, I'm a *slower" runner, with a 4+ hour marathon and 1:45 half, and I *feel* faster in my Next% and have had some solid races in them.
https://scientifictriathlon.com/tts179/

Like aerodynamics it’s likely that benefit applies across all paces, not just sub 7.
not so sure about this...
----------------------------------
I'm too old for sub 7 . . . Next % helps for sure!


I've done training runs, short, without socks and no problem.


I have done 3 hour runs with elastic laces and no problem.


I have well over 150 miles on them and no unusual wear (and I am hard on shoes).

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There’s theory and then there’s practice.

In theory they make me faster over a wide range of paces. In practice I’d rather run barefoot than wear my % shoes at 9:00/mi pace.

I’m thinking they’re not faster if I’m not wearing them.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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No issue whatsoever ... if you rub some bodyglide onto the heel-counter

LOL! I also find easy runs in them kind of odd. That's why I bought the Turbo 2's for other runs.

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I would guess the sweet spot is more about how/where you land, rather than the specific pace itself.

I'm just looking forward to Patrick Lange cleaning house in five year old adidas Adios at Kona, with Sanders rolling in second in his Skechers.

Have you run in either of these shoes? I am guessing you have not.

This is exactly how they feel. for christ's sake, they were built for a sub 2 hour marathon. 99% of the people on this forum can't hold that pace for 200 meters.

Does Nike make carbon-plated shoes with a heel drop of less than 10mm? I do better in 5-8mm but can't find anyone besides Hoka who makes carbon-plated shoes with that kind of drop. I'm finding that in addition to making you faster, the carbon plates help with my hallux rigidus, but for some reason I can't run fast in the Hokas (no ground feel).

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The only way to avoid disappointment is to not try anything at all.

I think the Next% is 8mm of drop. I haven't run in them yet but others have said that the shoe addresses some of the instability issues people felt when using the 4%.

I felt the same way about the Hokas... I *really* wanted to like them but they just didn't work for me unfortunately.

Eric

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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this is simple, actually. The benefit is the return of energy. The term spring gets over-used here because there is NO spring effect but it helps to use the term. The spring gets set based on the force applied to the spring. This means WEIGHT of the runner will matter just as much as their speed. I suspect this myth about it only working for sub 7 pace was built upon the idea that 115 lb marathoners were wearing them.

This article does a good job of explaining how the shoe works. https://www.outsideonline.com/...-shoes-actually-work

Finally, someone mentions the weight of the runner. Anyone know the difference in the force being applied between a 115lb Kipchoge and a 170lb age group athlete?

Anyone seen many using the Hoka One One Carbon X's? I currently race in these shoes, but admittedly, do not have any definitive proof that they are a faster or slower shoe.

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I don't think there is definitive proof that ANY shoe is faster.

I can agree with you on this one.

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- Jordan

My Strava

Yes the Next is 8mm

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I noticed the male winner of IM Wales and first two female winners are wearing exact same shoes with color.
WHite Hoka Carbon X. I don't think other podium finishers wearing Carbon X or Next/4 %. I thought it was interesting.

I was thinking exactly what you are saying after running in both the 4% and Next%. I ran a 70.3 in China earlier this year in the 4% and ran a 1hr 25min my fastest ever 70.3 run at 4:02/km pace average. The response from the shoe and energy return felt amazing. About a month ago I ran Bintan 70.3 in the heat and in a training block and for a lot of the race I was closer to 5:00/km pace. The shoe felt good in that it was a soft ride but it was dead with no energy return. Any section I was faster than that I started to feel the energy return more but nothing like at 4:00/km pace. My leg turn over and biomechanics must have been too slow?

I ran a training run in the Next% 10km at 4:50/km pace and 5km at 4:20/km pace. They definitely have more energy return at a slower pace with the extra rubber in the forefoot feeling good at 4:50 and even better as I wound the pace up. I raced in them at the Sunshine Coast 70.3 a week ago and ran a 1hr 30min at 4:17/km pace. I was in the middle of a big block and the shoe felt great at that pace. I think the shape of the sole being different with the rocker closer to the toe seems to helps too.

I went into China fully tapered so certainly had different legs in my races but as I say the 4% is amazing at pace but gives less than the Next% at a slower pace. I am 83kg or 182 pounds so a bigger athlete and I am sure the shoe will respond differently depending on your weight.

I develop achilis tendon inflamation on my left foot when running on the Vaporfly 4%. No such issues when I go back to my other shoes (Adidas Adios 4).

Anyone else has this problem and found out wether this can be fixed? Would maybe the Next% fix this? Or is it just not our shoe if you have this problem :)

yeah I actually felt sore in the quads after doing a longish easy run in the 4%. Totally different running mechanics at that pace, and I would have been way better off in my normal feedback giving shoes.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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I read this thread before my sprint race yesterday and thankfully didn't trust experiences here.
So for what it's worth: Ran the next% without socks and no issues at all. Used baby powder and a little body glide on the heel collar

Oof. After 3 races (2 70.3s and a sprint) in my Next%, I'll never go sockless again in them, until I inevitably forget to put them on in transition that is. I've gone sockless since I started triathlon and am willing to accept some blisters and rubbing, but the next% is extreme for me. I'm actually not very comfortable at all in them but I seem to run fast so I'll keep using them until something better comes along.

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Put your dang socks on before the bike!

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Depends on the weather! Probably should though as I'm far more likely to charlie-horse in T2.

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+1... skin is slower. Plus this is why we get made fun of on GCN.

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