Hard to vote against Roglic, so that's where my mind votes. Would love for this youth trend this year to continue to Pogacar, in the hopes that it convinces DQS to unleash Remco next year. But I would mostly rather hope for the trend of South America showing up big so I'll go with Lopez as well!

I also can't wait to see the chaos of movistar

---

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

I'll buck the Lopez trend and go with Carapaz.

Who will be the first to buck the South American trend? :)

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/...a-espana-2019-435302

I haven't really paid much attention to the Vuelta lead up so I have no idea what the route is like, but I have to pick Roglic, they are bringing the team to the Vuelta that they should have brought to the Giro, they are by far the strongest team in the race and I believe that Roglic maybe learned from coming in a bit too hot at the Giro.

remember how invincible Roglic looked, only to fade in the third week? not sure what will happen this time, but it won't surprise me if something similar occurs

Interesting mix of GC riders. Lopez is probably a good pick. Carapaz as well, but with his exit to Ineos, it just gives Movistar even more reason to ride dysfunctional. Quintana is probably riding for himself and Valverde may have a world's defense on his mind. Roglic..I'm just not sure he'll hang on the super steep stuff but he should benefit from the TTT and ITT.

Vuelta is so hard to predict as most riders are either recovering from the TdF, or have been quiet since the Giro.

He crashed in a crit and now can't race the Vuelta? You gotta' be kiddin' me. What a bummer.

You hit the nail on the head. I have been waiting to see Roglic really put together 3 weeks with no hiccups. However, I did watch the GCN preview and like other Vuelta there is just some insanely steep climbs. Up to 28%! That makes me think that a kinda berried guy like Roglic will struggle. I am going to go out on a limb and pick Danny Martínez from EF. Super punchy climber who TT. EF’s roster suggests that they aren’t screwing around as well. Decent lineup with a bunch of new-pros or less well known riders.

Does Roglic pull a Yates? He looked super strong in the Giro (like Yates) then the third week he tanked hard (like Yates). So does he come to the Vuelta and dominate (like Yates)?

I don't think Roglic tanked hard in the Giro. He finished 3rd, 2:30 down. He was gapped a few times, but never caved in entirely. Yates finished an hour and a quarter down.

Ok, maybe tanked was a bit much but he was cruising and covering attacks then couldn’t defend in the last part of the Giro. Just looking at the similarities to Yates and speculating he could do what Yates did at the Vuelta last year.

Yeah, looking at the Jumbo roster, it looks like a formidable team....De Plus is missing, but Kruijswijk, Gesink, Bennett, Kuss are a hell of a set of climbing domestiques. Martin, Powless, Hofstede as rouleurs. That's pretty solid. Plus Roglic is fresh. Pretty good bet.

Jumbo will put some time into everyone on stage 1. Love that the first week starts with little preamble and gets right down to biz with tough stages and summit finish.

Going to say Roglic does a Yates, learns from Giro mistake and gets it done. Would be glad to see Lopez or Uran win but I think there’s enough TTing to give Roglic a decent buffer.

So, Roglic, Lopez, Uran

+1

Roglic was on good form at Tirreno-Adriatico way back in March, 9 weeks prior to the start of the Giro; he put in a great performance at Romandie just prior to the Giro and of course in the the Prologue TT, but it's no wonder that he fell apart trying to ride that form (or peak twice) in those 12 weeks, especially considering that the Giro parcours was so heavily backloaded with mountains in the final week.

I think he'll have learnt from that and will be favourite even though perhaps the climbs in this Vuelta don't suit him so well.

The TTT is super short (13km). It was a challenge to plan as some of the riders are 60 watts (CP) less than the strongest riders. There is a nice hill in there so that helped balance things out a bit with the stronger riders being a bit heavier.

But I think it will be an interesting TTT. I am anxious to see how many teams finish with more than 5 riders. I bet ou see riders dropped at half way through.

Ah, didn’t realize it was that short and ITT so long. Probably gives Roglic more of an advantage, he could take 1-2 minutes out of climbers in 36k.

The average weight of the team for the Vuelta is 3kg less than the Tour.
Not sure that is by design or just who is left over at the end of the season

EF is going to shake out at the Vuelta like Ineos did at the Tour. It will become more and more clear Dani Martinez is the stronger rider and Rigo will end up second string (or third... Higuita).

Agreed, Roglic had a heavy early season. The comparison to Yates last year is apples and oranges for the reasons you mentioned. Yates blew up because he burned tons of matches in the first 2 weeks of the Giro. Roglic faded slightly because he tried to stay at peak for a long time. While Yates was able to regroup and win the Vuelta last year, I think it's fundamentally different how Roglic will have to regroup.

The Velogames league is still open if anyone is interested. I have been dominating the season, since I have been the only one signed up!

Going to be a great tour and happy to see its on the Olympic Channel again. Looks like its Bob & Phil again.

Its so wide open. On paper Jumbo Visma is the strongest team, but I think Astana will show up strong. I also agree Martinez is the GC rider for EF Education, I am hoping Uran will be as gracious as Thomas was for Bernal in the TDF,

Another thing I love is all the Americans in the race, I think Dombrowski should be in instead of Tejay.

Sam Bennett will dominate the sprints but watch out for Jakobsen.

Some love for Will Barta. Making his Grand Tour debut with CCC.

I'm going with Dani Boy. He should be fresh. Tejay, then Rigo, then Hugh, fall away then Dani by himself on the climbs. Not a bad set up.

Shoot, I wish I had thought to ask earlier. It’s probably too late, but what’s the league code?

---

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

League Code- 521835710

If you already entered in the past your automatically entered. Cutoff is 12:30 eastern today.

Not too many watching options for this Grand Tour.
Nothing in French from France or Belgium, no "free" english broadcasts except Australia. Between French and English I have 4 or 5 options.
Off to Australia (via VPN).
Tons of Dutch channels.

Made it in time!

---

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Hoping Esteban Chaves has a good Vuelta. Not expecting much doesn’t seem like he has much of a team around him, but I’ve always had a soft spot for him.

agreed to all points

The best bike type calculations, if they follow the plan exaclly is 14min,19sec although the course looks more technical than the course files the organization provided.

It will be interesting to see how close the come to that. So far they are closer to 15min

liking the stark start, mtns of salt; the Vuelta is just ... cool

wow - some wreckage with jumbo-visma, dqs almost colliding with car and then last corner iffy
vuelta delivers in short ttt

Well 3kilos less per rider may mean you have have to haul around and prepare 5% less food and water, so that's a plus LOL! Keep us informed from behind the scenes.

Really bad day for Jumbo, watch those white lines when it’s wet folks. 40 seconds is a big ask to get back, especially when one of your main rivals is the one with the 40 second lead.

really happy today.

One thing I did for the team was the calculation of the pull times and power targets, with the objective of getting to the end as quickly as possible and as depleted as possible.

We take the data from physiological tests, their CDA data and measurements from test runs in 2nd, 3rd....8th position. We crunch it all, and figure out their postion, pull, who climbs....make a plan, try it once, twice and pray they don't crash.

It is just "science" but I am told the biggest impact is the riders believe in the plans. It clicked for the first time at the tour this year and I think this is the first time they ever win a TTT. I got a note from one of the riders after asking how close to plan he was and saying, I feel this is F1....In a good way (I think).

I am getting the scoop on their boss' run for Kona. He's gunning for his AG. We'll keep that in another thread but apparently he is on the Dev 1,000,000m swim program. His I swim is down by over 10min apparently.

if said boss is Vino, your entire last paragraph is incredibly tone deaf. I understand that you may not wish to criticize those who sign your paycheck, but you are basically trying to buff a shine on the turd that is Vino, and it is a bit nauseating

You want to make benefit glorious city and team of Nur-sultan, that's your prerogative, just don't expect the rest of us to go along with the whitewashing and normalization of Vino

Point taken.

The intent was not to buf turd. I thought it was funny that he, like Dev has become a "swimmer". That's it, that's all.

BTW, he doesn't sign any paychecks for me and I have no problem criticizing what he or anyone around him did back in their time.

Congratulations It has to feel good to help your team deliver a great performance.

Never saw the outcome being Jumbo :40 down and a dinged up Roglic. Pretty much a disaster with no time to heal ahead of a tough stage 2; gives Lopez a significant buffer for ITT if he hasn’t take more time by then.

understood; apologies for being rather pointed in my response

this is how it should go, respectfully.....thanks, guys....marcag, your boots on the ground insights and reports are great, thanks

it's all good.

Wow, this is ST analytic full circle for the TTT win. This is super cool that you brought some of this to the table. I always wondered how to optimally position riders for a TTT based on their strengths and aero profiles and keeping teams together to minimize the time of the last guy across the line. What was the cause of the Jumbo crash?

As for their boss, you can tell him that we still think that Lance would kick his ass in Kona LOL. As for the 1000km per year program, well, I'm doing 1200km per year, but I am not riding 20,000km and running 3000km like he probably is.

But you aren't a turd :-)

Yup, worse case for Jumbo. Roglic needs to be perfect for 20 stages, that’s a hell of a lot of pressure, on top of him and the majority of his team dinged up.

Said it before and will say it again: these are the most civil of ST threads.

The racing civility is over on stage 1. The daggers are out. I love this course design. Good little Roglic/Uran/Nieve/Quintana group off the front.

Really savvy racing by EF. They placed Uran near the front in the critical sections, and have Higuita getting a free ride in the chase.

Definitely shaping up to be an interesting stage for 'only' day 2!

Gonna save up that last 2K everyone someone says Quintana never attacks.

Ineos had no one in the first two groups.

Wow, Roglic makes up nearly all of the TTT loss the very next day. Very well-timed attack.

THE MOVE podcast team is doing something VERY interesting for La Vuelta

Lance isn't in it [not yet, anyway]

JB and Johann are one one feed, in English, while Johann and Víctor Hugo Peña are on another feed in Spanish!!!

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

you mean 20K, right?

find it funny when people call him passive; seems like this type of naysayers forget his exploits at the 2014 Giro

OK, both. One clip at 20K when he jumped to the group, then at ~2K when he attacked the leading group for the win.

The first one is kinda expected. Jumping away on climbs is what Quintana does. I did *not* expect him to pull a Tom Boonen move on the flat, riding away from TT-artist Roglic and stage-hunter Roche.

Edit: It was savvy by Quintana, too, attacking with Uran on the front, probably knowing his former roommate and country-man wasn't going to pull it back for Roglic.

One hell of a stage, great move by Quintana, Roglic, Aru, and Uran. I half expected Valverde to try to bridge up to the front group pulling the rest of the group with him, just like Movistar did at the TDF.

Even more excited for the next 19 stages!

It might have been unintentional, but it was excellent teamwork for Valverde to bait Lopez twice, softening him up just enough to let the small group pull clear. Silly of Lopez to take the bait when he had no teammates to cover counter-attacks.

Lopez blew that one marking the wrong guy. Can't ask for a better stage 2 of a GT, cards were put on the table.

They did this for the Giro--the JB and JB show for each stage--they said it was so successful and that they had so many requests from Spanish speakers that they were going to try to find a Spanish speaking host for the Vuelta. I guess the Columbian success has caused a big following!

Nice to see Aru back in the mix yesterday.
I wonder if there is hope of some type of a comeback.

Super nice guy. Different, but really nice guy.

De Gendt goes again.

When the pace picks up the sprinters in the back are like, sheeeit, is De Gendt going again????

Dang Higuita has a good sprint for a climby-type.

that iliac artery thing really threw a wrench in the works; good to see him back

btw, do you work for Argon? We actually just bought a Dark Matter

Why doesn't Bennett have a contract for next year yet?

No. I was the founder of Notio which is a subsidiary of Argon.
But I don't work for Notio or Argon anymore.

gotcha;

really looking forward to someone actually delivering a CdA measurement device to market. that's be really neat

I don't want to derail this thread but here's my take on it.
You have Golden Cheetah and Aerolab. Under very specific conditions (no little wind, closed loop, no braking...) you can get very good CDA numbers
In the perfect world, you should be able to test anytime, any conditions, no restrictions, brake when you need to.....and get equally good numbers instantaneously
The state of technology is somewhere between the two. The conditions imposed are less and less.

But you can see the perfect world is not far away and when we get there it opens up a bunch of possibilities we haven't started to really discuss. I'm still obsessed on getting there.

Wondering about this as well.

He's at the peak of his powers, so will be asking for a hefty salary. Teams might not have the budget. I only see Viviani being paid more because of his better one-day record. I think Gaviria is on about 2M euro, don't know what Viviani earns.

Very modest and laid-back guy. People tend to underestimate him. Has been with his team for many years. He's from a small country and doesn't have the marketing appeal that Cav, Groenewegen, Ewan or Viviani have.

Will be demanding a guaranteed start at the Tour de France and a solid leadout team. Teams may balk at this.

Possibility that teams may not like his agent.

I think that DQS would be the best fit for him but may not have the funds to meet his demands.They already have Jakobsen and Hodeg who are very good prospects. Bennett's personality and background would appeal to Belgians a lot, I think.

Unfortunate to be that good and third sting on your team. That’s more or less devaluing his place among the elite sprint ranks but hopefully he’ll get his due next year.

Yeah, you and 25% of the Universe ...

Viviani is moving to Cofidis, so presumably that opens up both space and budget at DQS. Agree that would be the best fit for him, and I don't necessarily think he would insist on being a TdF starter. Seems like a guy who just wants to know he's on a level playing field and will get the opportunities that his form deserves. Think he was frustrated that he felt Ackermann was being selected ahead of him at the Giro more due to his nationality than anything else.

Could also see Bennett being a useful team guy and possibly even a one day threat. There was an interview with him a while back where he said he'd switched up his training to doing a lot more volume as he'd found that that really suited him. So could be well suited to being more of an all rounder and not just a guy for the last 500m.

Bruynel mentionned Bennett would go to DQS
Cort is off to EF but apparently was in talks with DQS.

He will be missed. What a hoot. Talk about a guy not afraid to say what he thinks.
Actually all the Danes are like that. They just say what they think. Unfiltered. I laughed when Trump got all bent out of shape when the Danish PM used the word 'absurd'
He should try a team meeting with Valgren, Fuglsang and Cort.

DQS definitely makes sense for every sprinter, since I can’t think of one sprinter that hasn’t been great with them. Only problem is dollar bills or euros, DQS doesn’t have a huge budget and always has to make hard decisions. Now will the LFF and Remco those will be some big bucks and that doesn’t leave much cash for a big time sprinter.

Unfortunately I don’t see Bennett signing with a big team, since every sprinter team has a big sprinter. Probably will sign with a second division team like Israel cycling. Stinks for him.

There is only one turd here mates. Been away for a bit. Glad to rejoin the Vuelta threads.

Wouldn't Dimension Data like to unload Cav and get him? (though I don't know if that's contractually possible).

Does Trek really think Theuns is the answer? Sunweb doesn't want someone to mentor Walscheid?

May not be able to get him the Viviani dollars that he's worth, but seem like good fits otherwise.

Edit: Ah, just saw marcag saying DQS, which of course makes perfect sense.

I thought Bennett had already inked Bennett, it just wasn't formerly announced. ??? That was being reported here in the beginning of the Tour.

Don't know if you've seen much of him, but he is an unbelievably good sprinter as well as a superb descender. Valverde-esque punch with better descending skills.

 
it would be interesting to understand the economics behind building a GC, sprint, classics....team.

One thing for sure, budgets are shrinking and riders expectations are rising

I just think if a big team wanted him, he’d be signed. It’s not like Bora hasn’t made it obvious that they weren’t going to resign him.

I didn’t think of Dimension Data, if they could get out of the Cav deal he would be perfect. Trek really has no idea, plus Trek doesn’t sign anyone in their prime it seems, just over the hill GC guys. Sunweb has Matthews, so are they going to sign another big sprinter type, maybe.

Hopefully he keeps winning and gets a good deal.

Weird man crush. I love Tim Declercq.

Not weird at all. The tractor comes out daily to plow those fields of wind down. Tim is a class rider.

What a great ride by the small Burgos team today, they put on a clinic in perfect team work and never say die, it was beautiful to watch.

Also, side bar, Sep Kuss was amazing today.

 

to the connoisseurs.

When do the teams typically announce bike changes for the next year ?

Big ride by Sep. Looks like this could be an up and down GC trek all the way to Madrid.

Definitely not weird at all, Tim is one of my favorite riders. The man just kills breakaway attempts, he’ll probably never win a race but his team doesn’t win without him.

Sep did a great job for Roglic today and the Old Man keeps doing what he does. Lopez and Roglic look like strongest and both have each had a bad day, so far.

+ Quintana and Uran to the bad day list too.

True, but I view today as a little different to Lopez and Roglic’s bad day. Quintana and Uran got dropped after the first attack on the climb, before Lopez even decided to attack. I view that differently to Roglic crash and Lopez missing the correct move. But watch tomorrow Quintana and Uran kill it and the others don’t have the legs. It’s been a nice exciting start.

I recall reading somewhere that Cav brings team sponsors with him. Could potentially explain his continued employment if so.

Not compared to today......
Uran and Carthy both crashed out along with Nico Roche.

Gah, that sucks for Uran. Hopefully Tejay can pull off a consolation prize today.

Edit: Oh christ, nevermind.

TJ down - shit day for EF

wow....weird

There's some Bad Gravity at work, there is

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

No kidding. My long shot for the Vuelta was Danny Martinez, but it looked like they had him in more of a support Rigo role. Now he is way behind. At this rate they will have Docker riding for GC by Monday.

Hopefully Higuita is immune to gravity and can make something happen.

I hope Danny Martinez can produce something.

---

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Zero pressure now
to do anything but ride. Maybe he can get some good mountain finishes.

I really like both riders as well as EF, but Tejay is a first ballot entry in to the crash out Hall of Fame. Uran is currently only a nominee.

Higuita is a special rider. He doesn't yet have the ability to stay with the best on the really long climbs, but that could come.

Unfortunately I think Dani really was hurt a lot when he missed out on the TdF because of the crash resulting in broken ribs. I think he can climb and TT well enough to eventually podium a grand tour though.

Apparently Higuita went down today, according to McEwen. Team yard sale all week.

Fucking hell. I wasn't watching, but WTF EF?!

I wonder how much has to do with the more novice guys that are rounding out each team. A handful racing their first GT. Word yesterday was that a Jumbo rider braked on the descent to start the dominos.

Based on their bike handling skills one would think EF is a bunch of Triathletes.

---

All I Wanted Was A Pepsi, Just One Pepsi

Team Zoot, Team Zoot Mid-Atlantic

Could be. It appeared to me though that there was water on the descent and Tony Martin went down first. He certainly isn't the greatest handler, but no rookie.

This is beautiful. :)

That shouldn't be pink. That is real.

"Brakes are a means of expressing fear"

I forget where I heard that

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

FIFY

To be fair, Jumbo has collectively crashed about 27 times so far too.

Class win by Old Man Valverde. The four favs all looked evenly matched today. Good to see Kuss bring the pain.

Freakin' Valverde...….

Aru has bounced back from the arterial surgery, nice ride.

Nice seeing Phil Gil out there, dude is poetry on a bike....

Kuss is coming into his own.

Pogacar is a new favorite. Crazy kid. Valverde is almost twice his age.

And Tejay. Oh well.

---

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Class act Valverde 👍👌

Pogacar is going to be a badass. On the right team he might be someone who can take on Bernal.

If UAE willing to spend a little more, he might be on the right team. They reportedly just signed Richeze. Would they rethink there goals? G. Bennett under contract until 2021. Throw $$ at him (or someone similar)?

Well let's keep it in pink. Some of us triathletes are way better bike handlers than roadies....exhibit A











...and the guy who caused all the crashing going down to gap....well that guy has the Kona age group bike record now in his second life as a triathlete

I guess that is a point well taken Dev. I still can't believe Lance kept it up right and survived getting around what was arguably one of the nastiest crashes I've ever watched

Hey, I guess I don't like broad brush labels in general....is Vino a roadie or a triathlete...is Lance a triathlete or roadie is Lucy Charles another crappie triathlete who can't swim for shit? My main point, let's just judge each individual on their abilities. Remember Karin Thurig's performances at UCI cycling world's and some of you may not recall world duathlon Champion Matt Brick finishing top 20 at UCI TT world's....and what a bad triathlete (relatively) Chann McCrae was even though he was US Pro road champion in cycling.

Yeah the Beloki crash was ugly when that tubular melted off the rim. I think Lance lost a bit of his bike handling skills after his retirement. Remember his 2010 Tour de France when he crashed three times. The old Lance never crashed. He was always at the right place at the right time....or maybe he was always at the right place at the right time because he was doped up to the gills so he had the top end engine to always be out of trouble. In any case, for sure, some athletes just crash more than others. Its either bad luck or back handling or bad positioning.

If I recall correctly you are a high caliber swimmer, so go through this exercise:

1. Pure runners almost never say athletes from another sport "can't run"
2. Pure swimmers never put down athletes from other sports about their inability to swim
3. XC skiers never do that either....they want more poeple to become skiers
4. Speedskaters never talk about how other athletes can't skate
5. Triathletes never put down roadies for their inability to swim and run.

Its only roadies who somehow feel compelled to put down triathletes about their bike handling. Some of it is well earned, however, there is actually a more pertinent point. Cycling is actually a pretty easy sport to pick up. You take anyone with a massive engine from another sport and they will quickly surpass a cyclist with an inferior engine (especially if they are in a high watts to kilo category....Michael Woods or Lance are prime examples). So cyclists feel threatened that they can and often are easily surpassed by big engine athletes from other sports who "just jump in and become awesome"....Roglic is the latest example coming from ski jumping.

Unlike other sports where you have to spend your entire youth getting technically sound, cycling does not require this. So the defence mechanism of inferior engine cyclists (not saying you), is a generic put down of athletes from other sports saying, "they can't handle a bike". Its really a valid insecurity thing. In other sports, the good athletes have no insecurity. You can't just hop into the pool and become good in the 400IM or hop on the ice and get your 5000m speedskate time down to 6 minute. But Eric Heiden could hop on the bike and become a US national champion at cycling not that long after sweeping the gold medals in speed skating in Lake Placid. Its just technically not that complex a sport, so "bike handing put down" is all the roadies on athletes from other sports, because a big engine in cycling pretty well trumps everything. The other sports, a big engine only gets you so far....you have to be able to do the sport.

You get almost NO one from cycling that can leave that sport and become world class in another sport. It almost never works that way. Lots of examples the other way around.

Agreed on all counts. I was mostly just enjoying the joke, but again I agree with you. :)

I have ran competitively, biked competitively, tris competitively, skied at a very high level and speed skated competitively. In all these sports the best of the best have been very friendly in trying to help an outsider (at least initially until I became more insider than most insiders), get better. The last one is swimming and I am getting better at my 400IM and 200 fly. Its only in cycling where I have seen this standoffiish behaviour towards athletes trying to get into the sport and getting good. The funniest part is when I beat a roadie friend up Alpe d'Huez (around 12 years after you would no longer call me a roadie) and then he said, "yeah, but wait till the decent". I arrived in Bourg d'Oisans 5 minutes ahead of him and was twiddling my thumbs while he came down with smoking rims that were almost on fire. Mine were cool to touch by hand.

Cycling is a tough sport in terms of pain and suffering....but technically....its only got "bike handling" as a technical differentiator when big engine athletes come from other sports but its a lot easier to become a decent bike handler than a swimmer or skier or skater. Running...at some point, you're either born to run or you're not. No amount of running can help someone who is not born to run. Short achilles fat calf long torso athletes are dead before they even try the sport. They can only get so far even if their engine is huge.

I would agree that in all of these sports the best help each other get better. That said, in all sports I've also heard light hearted jokes about rookie mistakes in a manner that is not brought upon by malice. I will say cycling is very unique though. Especially here, I've seen some purely shite stereotypes about Columbians who can't descend, cyclists from the States with no etiquette, etc. That is in poor form. I THINK the jokes about triathletes not being able to handle a bike are in good fun, but maybe it isn't that way by all.

I digress and back on track.

Today's stage was fantastic. The old man does it again. Jumbo looked great and Roglic looked like he was just marking everyone the whole day and conserving energy. Quintana looks like his old self. Very dynamic and fun.

The stereotype exists because on average triathletes do have worse bike handling skills, and more importantly pack handling skills, for their level of fitness. This is pretty much inevitable given that in achieving that fitness they would have spent less time on a bike (cross training benefits from running and swimming), less time on a road bike and less time in group rides than the average roadie with similar fitness. Of course there are exceptions in both directions, I'm talking averages here, since that's what tends to lie behind stereotypes and perceptions of a whole cohort of people. Your anecdote about descending Alpe d'Huez is funny (though your friend sounds like a bit of an asshole) but no more relevant than my story about a triathlete I saw on a training ride a couple of months ago who went off the road on a completely innocuous bend with no other vehicles or bikes nearby on a windless day and blamed his rear disc.

If everybody was out riding solo like swimmers and runners do then it wouldn't be a thing. Or it would be the cycling equivalent of the "strange denizens of the pool" thread. The reason it's a thing is that when strong riders with poor handling and pack skills show up to group rides and races they cause carnage for everybody else. As you say, those strong newbies could be from a bunch of other sports, but the biggest cohort tends to be triathletes, and triathletes are often also relatively easy to identify. From their kit, their IM tattoo, their bringing a TT bike on a group ride, or from just talking to them. There isn't a stereotype for ex ski jumpers in cycling because most of us have never met one.

Now sorry for continuing to take the thread completely off topic! Back on topic - quite a punchy climb 30km from the finish and the finish looks slightly uphill as well. Maybe a day for somebody like De Gendt rather than an out and out sprinter?

CX World Championships today too, could be a high screen time day.

So much for EF talking a big game with calibrating and going for stages, huge break today, pretty much every team without a big GC rider was in it, all of the small spanish Conti teams were in it, damn even Dimension Data managed to get a rider in....

great win by Pauline Ferrand-Prevot coming back from double iliac artery surgery; tough day
for Kate Courtney but fight back for 5th

hoping Aru continues to improve as he also is coming back from iliac artery surgery

Yeah, PFP looked awesome. Bummer for Kate but she has a lot of years ahead of her. #8 for Schurter— that’s just mind-boggling.

Skill level of all of em at that level is just crazy.

yeah Nino with #8 is just hard to comprehend: not quite same level but like KFC and her ? 15? US Nationals

Even the moto drivers getting in on the crashing today. Scary to see the live video go sideways and hear the moto sliding out. Hope the driver and cameraman are OK.

yeah that was scary - sure it put the riders on edge
tomorrow looks like a leg burner

Tomorrow should be awesome, to bad I will in the car driving and will have to miss catching it live

you mentioned EF not getting in the break yesterday and I thought today would better suit Martinez and he's there today, good sign, with Higuita looks like....James Knox is having a great ride and will move way up...….Kuss is there, wow, he's doing it for Roglic

this stage has it all....Lopez goes from way out and has Fuglsang up the road...not a bad situation....Pogacar!!!!!!...this kid is nuts

yeah great stuff - and Kuss is there for Roglic

this finish is going to be insane....we won't see it but.....rain, mud, lightning, Pogacar…..no camera coverage now so Valverde is probably being very cagey......or cheating...….tomahto tomato......

“A good day for ducks”

"Movistar waiting for Movistar while Movistar attacks Movistar"

too good......

Movistar tactics always befuddle me.

That's better described as dysfunction.

You’re assuming they have tactics...

controlled chaos, perhaps?

That was a great line by the announcers, would’ve loved to be on the Movistar bus after that stage. Soler was pissed, can’t remember the last time I saw someone that pissed about being called back.

They're certainly an interesting team to watch.

---

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Watching just a couple of stages on TV, why are there so few crowds on these climbs, vs the TDF having (seemingly) tens of thousands on their climbs?

Or even loco, but so far it’s working. Looked like youthful enthusiasm got the better of Lopez today—went early and over-cooked a turn on wet gravel. But big points for being aggressive. Pogacar is a savage. Phenomenal stage.

I think if I'm Unzue, I let Soler go. He's staying with the team and he's got a great future. Quintana, he's leaving and he just doesn't seem to have the punch he used to. On a climb like today, I think he should've been able to put a lot more time into Roglic than he did. Roglic will take 6 seconds from Quintana in the first k of the TT. And Valverde chasing. WTF?

But, as Johann said on The Move, as pissed as he was, he did do what he was told to do

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Sort of on topic (and it's a rest day)............

I never saw or read anything dealing with how Bruyneel felt about the 2009 TdF with the Contador vs. Armstrong feud. There is a lot of information dealing with how those two riders felt about each other and with the result of the race, but what about Bruyneel? Was he eventually happy having Contador win that year, or was he upset that Contador seemed to go off on his own during the race?

---

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

I hope he wasn't, as Contador was clearly the stronger rider. And Armstrong had it coming regardless if some stories from that year are true.

In other rest day news, rumors of Carapaz signing for Skyneos confirmed <sad face>

Movistar is cycling's Reality Show. Drama abounds past few years.

Feel for Soler...having strong day, wanting to win first GT stage on home soil. And with the nonsense that they allow to go on there, hard to blame him for being upset having to come back for the mercurial guy who is out the door.

But, in the end he filled his role, and then said all the right things today.

I really like this TT course. Hell of a ride from the young American Barta. Curious to see if Cavagna can hold on. Impressive first 20km.

Damn. Cavagna on a mega ride today.

Ludvigsson has a crazy tall pad pedestal setup!

If there was a single speed Grand Tour, De Gendt wins by landslide.

lol. I love Thomas de Tank.

Great course, makes me miss TT bike.

Ok, it passed.

Roglic is a fucking animal. I would love to know his w/kg and w/CdA. Clearly slippery as all get out. Clearly has the watts. Clearly can handle his bike. Just amazing all around.

How can you not miss something that makes you faster!? ;)

Posted in another thread, but I snagged a Premier Tactical and had some very smart aerodynamicists (is that a word?) adjust my position from my old P5. For me this bike allowed me to get well under .2 CdA due to its design and allowing a more aggressive position. I love TT bikes! All UCI legal too.

And I think echappist already called me out in the watts/speed thread, but I do have clothing on haha. Lucky for you all its a speedo after my morning swim session and you don't have to see all that.

---

PS. Shout out to Marcag. The Notio validated my positional changes while testing laps within .04 to my actual CdA confirmed at Boardmann and the track. Great tool.

Cool.

So if you were a .20 on the track it measured .24 ? .004 I would be happy, .04 not so much

If we go with the .01 CDA is 10watts, is 1sec/km, given he beat Lopez by 120seconds on 40km (3s/km) it will be pretty easy to guess when I see Lopez's file

But I am going to go with he rode at 380watts with a 0.185 CDA

You caught my typo. .004 was the difference. Amazing if you ask me. Down to .190. Now to find the 30 watts I am still missing from Epstein-Barr.

I'd love to see real data, but my guess is Thomas de Tank isn't .185. Higher CdA and higher power I think. You might know better than me obviously.

Curious what you think Roglic was doing watt and CdA wise...

come to think of it, I bigger faux-pas is that unfinished bottle of whey protein shake :p

Jest aside, what sized Premier Tactical do you ride, and do you know what the head tube length is?

My TT bike is a Scott Plasma 3, the team replica one with the shark tooth stem. It's long and low, but a bit too low. So low that I think I'm running more than 10 cm of spacers between the bar and the pads. Also so low, that there isn't enough clearance for normal brake housing routing (had to drill a hole through the bottom of the stem to feed a TriRig, as the heat tube is barely 9 cm, IIRC.

In a photoshoot, the bike looks great. But I was never able to maneuver the bike well, as I can't get much steering input into the low bars when my arms are that stretched out in the bullhorns. It makes me think that a bike with a higher front end may not be such a bad thing, so that at least I could weigh the front end a bit easier. Only unfortunate thing is that other TT bikes also tend to go to the long-and-low extreme, with the bullhorns located a tad too far...

Then again, none of this might matter. I haven't been able to ride the TT bike in almost two years, due to a knee injury, and I'm not sure if I will ever be able to recover to the level of pain free riding for me to try out different positions.

Roglic is a beast. Valverde, Pogacar and Lopez were within range of each other, while Quintana just sucks at ITTs. Can't see him having a shot at this point unless he can somehow break both Roglic and Lopez. Movistar's crazy strategy suddenly makes more sense.

My gestalt impressions on Quintana’s TT position: wide knees, wide elbows, forearms pointing slightly down, back not particularly flat/low and head not particularly low. Probably a lot of improvements could be made.

His biggest ITT improvement would be ditching TT bike altogether and being the Sagan of climber's jersey competition.

You could say that of a lot of “GC” contenders.

For sure. How many stage wins & polka dot jerseys could Bardet own by now?

Bardet would be a better Richard Virenque and would be the darling of French cycling, if he focused on those 2 things and not his hopeless GC dream.

Sort of.

Not to harp on this, and I understand the tactics. But seeing as how today ended up exactly as expected...why not just let Soler go Sunday? He is currently the future of your team. What did they really gain? That time was marignal in the overall picturel. I (as a fan) would have rather seen him get the stage win then see Nairo barely in red for a cup of coffee.

And for the extra kick in the rear...after it all goes down Nairo and Carapaz officially say Adios.

https://www.espn.com/...-leads-cannabis-raid

this made me laugh

someone's paying attention :)

If he wanted to really be like Virenque* there are other things he'd have to do.

LOL

Am I the only total sap here that shed a sentimental tear over a journeyman rider on a Basque team taking a stage in home mountains?

(And Euskadi's team spokesman claims they're very close to a sponsorship deal that would keep them racing in 2020)

The Pro Conti teams have acquitted themselves well this Vuelta. That Euskadi dude is never going to have to buy txakoli again. Great win for him and the team.

Not a sap at all, always like to see the “little guys” get a win in one of the big tours. Especially when it’s a home rider.

love seeing these guys stay away and getting some, every time

In other news, stage 8 gave new meaning to term “pro cycling bust”

And someone's probably not very fun at parties. Who does that? Apparently it's not illegal to grow or use....it was mostly a permit violation.

Thought was just Floyd’s Leadville altitude camp.

not at all

Football and cycling has special meaning in the Basque Country. One could easily well up reading about either sport in the Basque Country


yep, indeed. Always root for the brakeaway, especially on stages when the odds are stacked against the break

Agreed

it wasn't just a Spanish rider winning a stage in Spain. It was a Basque rider winning a stage in the Basque Country (all the "tx" in place names is a give away)

for decades, due to the political situation in the Basque Country (mainly terrorist threats from ETA), la Vuelta didn't actually visit the Basque Country, despite it being a region mad for cycling. Hemingway even dedicated a few paragraphs to the Tour of the Basque Country in The Sun also Rises (see below). It wasn't until 2011 that la Vuelta made its return; fittingly enough a Basque rider on Euskatel won that stage.

Following from The Sun also Rises, via http://www.thebikecomesfirst.com/...-the-basque-country/

thanks for that - do not remember that in the book at all and i've read it 3 times albeit the last time
must have been 30+yrs ago. (had to write a paper on it or lit class/college)

super cool to see local riders win, sitting on edge of coach yesterday screaming "come on- hold on"

didn't get to see todays stage but happy for Gilbert. read he has deep appreciation for Basque love of cycling

Those chasers did all they could to bring Gilbert back. The bigger rider was blown.
Phil Gil looks good for WC.

Was thinking the same. He's climbing well and has that nasty kick on the punchy stuff.

This profile today looks like a troubling ekg.

21k to go and entire Astana team still there while it looks like Jumbo has Roglic + maybe 3.

Oh man this climb looks savage. I might need to take the day off work after watching this.

That climb was a beast! The 5ish% of my heritage from Slovenian is singing today, great stage by Roglic and Pogacar!

nice ride by Powless today

The hell with Colombians, Slovenians are tearing the Vuelta to pieces.

Roglic looks like he learned the Giro lesson in measuring efforts. He looks in complete control and getting stronger as race goes on.

Seems like the Vuelta has become the place to make up for Giro mistakes.

He's handling the 25% goat tracks well. Looks like a done deal.

It's amazing to watch the peloton of 180 or so riders zipping through city streets, and most of the time they make it.

Not so good today. Surprising that more riders don't get seriously hurt when they end up on the ground like this.

Looking forward to the next two stages.

---

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

hope Kuss hangs on

KKUUUUUUUSSSSS!!!!

I loved the MTB-style high fives in the last 300m. Pure joy.

F*cking awesome. Another good ride by Craddock too.

That was awesome.

Sep!!!!!!

That was spectacular.

And he chugged the beer on the podium!!! First time I saw a winner do that, the fans loved it and so did I!

It was! Along with the pure joy in his face while he was doing it!

ah man that was golden - as the announcers said, he just cemented the love he won from the Spanish fans with that

Says a lot about how strong and confident Roglic is feeling to give Sepp green light. Classy of him to do so.

I don’t know how Jumbo picks next year’s Tour team, they have more hitters than spots: Roglic, TD, Kruiseship, Bennet, Van Aert, De Plus, Martin, Sepp? No room for Groenewegen in there.

It is amazing how strong they've built themselves in the past few years. I think Skyneos finally has competition.

That would be an amazing TdF squad though. Having 3 guys who can be outright GC contenders, one deluxe domestique (bennet who has shown he has it in the 1 week races) one world class rouleur (van aert), 2 strong, young climbers (de plus and kuss) and 1 TT machine (martin) - they've shown they have it in the TTTs.

If they put all their eggs in the GC bucket they would absolutely challenge Ineos for thr TdF.

Should be interesting to see how Jumbo sets up their teams for the grand tours. Assuming Roglic wins the Vuelta, who leads at the TDF him or TD and will Kruiseship (great nickname for him) be happy with super domestic duties? Groenewegen is definitely the man out for the TDF, and maybe the team depending on budget and contract. Will be interesting to see what happens!

ok, Benny is up next........'Merica

anyone else think Geoghegan Hart needs a helmet that fits

PogaStar

One thing to be athletically gifted but another to riding for GC in this thing- at 20.
Precocious.

Good seeing Bart Simpson at the finish. That was random.

Rest day stuff.

Joe Dombrowski has signed with UAE Team Emirates for next season. Didn't see this coming, and not really a team I'm going to support. But here's hoping he can get some results.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/dombrowski-signs-with-uae-team-emirates/

---

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

saw that this morning; think Joe D has a lot more to offer and that a this move works out for him - he's only 28
j

Good that he has another American, McNulty, on the team. But I'm still trying to figure out what UAE wants to be. Clearly with Gaviria and Richeze they're going to targetting sprint stages and sprinter one-days. Are the climbs Joe D, McNulty, and Aru going to be stage hunters?

I'm a little surprised that Trek-Segafredo, as a U.S.-registered team, has seemingly made little effort to sign young U.S. talent. They have Stetina and Reijnen.

I am a bit bummed about this as well, as I like to root for Joe D, but not so much for a dictatorship.
However, I do think that Joe needed a change of scenery, I think things got stale at EF and he wasn't reaching his full potential, and also with them bringing on the 2 young columbians he was going to be pushed farther down the depth chart.

Based on how Pogacar is going during the Vuelta, and that they have him under contract for four more years, I imagine they are building a team around him for future grand tour wins.

Exactly. Pogacar deserves to have a GT team built around him.

I think EF would have loved to keep him. Joe got very solid in the last couple of years after hip arterial corrections were made and his market value jumped at the same time as the love diminished with JV and EF and I guess they couldn't pay up. Hard to hang with that Emirates dough.

All pure speculation on my part.

I'm happy for him and with McNulty of course and PogaStar on the team, it'll be interesting. He's getting married and seems super happy and I think his agent has a handle on who to stay away from re team admin and directors. Kind of a bummer though as EF was a US team to an extent. But these guys have to bank it while they can. It's usually such a short window of opportunity.

 
It's kind of funny that Pogacar steals your KOM. Any of the peloton could do it, but I like it was Pogacar

If you live in Asturias and La Vuelta comes here every two years, and then add the small junior races, regional and other criteriums... It's quite hard to keep a KOM!

Rest day wow: https://www.velonews.com/...at-the-vuelta_500502

All of these amazing young riders right now are jaw dropping. That power is awesome.

Like a boss

Most impressive part is that his power on the final climb was a) higher than some of the GC riders’ and b) comparable to his effort from earlier in the day

And it came after 3 hours with some pretty solid efforts already.

When ST ponders how triathletes stack up to a pure cyclists then can look at a 141 lb guy who average 270 watts on a 4400kj day in the middle of a grand tour.

Are Pogastar's number anywhere online?

He’s on Strava but I don’t recall seeing power numbers.

Yup. Turns out pure cyclists are, well, uh the best cyclists in the world. :) That 30 minute power at his size in the middle of a grand tour is mighty mighty good.

Forget the average. He had a 400W effort for 28 minutes followed by a 400W effort for 24 minutes. That's the power-to-weight ratio of the Falcon Heavy. Insane.

There is a pretty good episode of the podcast "The Adventure Stache" featuring Sepp Kuss and a few other pro mountain bikers who came up through the Durango Devo program together.

the podium missed a huge break....5 minute gap....this is crazy....the directors are going to eff this up....the riders should be drilling it and sort it out later.....what a move by DQS

Quintana, the stone faced Inca warrior, is in this break. The guy still wants to win the race. It's impressive given his size and the crosswinds and the flats and the big DQS guys drilling it. Good on him.

like they just said - makes tomorrows' stage interesting if Lotto-Visma has to expend a lot of energy today to close down break
4 DQS riders in break (crosswinds zen masters)

HAHAHA! It's classic.

That’s not what happened, they were disrupting chase. Astana is the one with questionable tactics. Roglic getting VERY lucky today and bailed out by them. Could have easily lost entire race to Quintana otherwise.

Hmm...I don't know. Soler looked like he was going close to full gas at the same time the gap dropped by ~30 seconds and Valverde went back into virtual 2nd.

Edit: And as I type this Movistar riders are still taking full turns in the chase. Pulling through hard.

Edit Edit: I think it is plausible that Soler was trying to soften up the peloton so Valverde could try to force a split. Which did briefly work.

This was my take too. It looked to me that Movistar was attempting to further break the chase group and isolate out a few leaders. I didn't get what Astana did and you are right; Roglic got luuucky.

haha love that. Some massive efforts. When I saw that he released his power data I was not expecting to see those kind of numbers from him. I figured he'd put in a few 5.8 w/kg efforts, which obviously are still mega, but damn. He is truly special.

Don't know WTF Bennett was thinking. He had that break dead to rights until he went waaaay early.

Gilbert: BOSS. DQS shows em how to close the deal.

well he flinched and made a panic move i guess
is Gilbert a favorite for Worlds ??

They might go hard at times so that any help behind doesn’t get back on; they have to break the chasers too. Movistar wants to win race. Sure they’d prefer it to be Valverde but can be certain they’ll be happy with Quintana instead of Roglic.

Jumbo and UAE blew it today and got outplayed. Had Astana not taken it up, Quintana could have taken 15 minutes or more. Probably not going to matter in end by kudos to Movistar for throwing a haymaker.

Agreed.

And Gilbert and DQS did show em how its done. Big Tractor DeClerq lead the way again for Phil Gil to go.

Gilbert has to be in the talk of a favorite for worlds. Right behind MVdP.

Agreed. Love the tactics. I tuned in late expecting to see a boringish stage - not the case.

Gilbert is looking damn good—that was impressive. Will be interesting to see the other contenders in action this weekend at Can. Sagan has been riding his MTB in Utah while MvDP lights up Britain. Show time for him now.

Perhaps whatever Gilbert lacks in raw power, he can compensate with racing guiles. M vdP often seems a bit too eager, and that could easily be exploited by Gilbert.

That was a phenomenal day. Tim De Tank owned the whole stage, set up Phil Gil AGAIN, and nice flyer by Stybar. Wow. Love it when the big guys make the race. That was cool.

I wonder if Movistar has one more haymaker left in them. GC teams (and protected riders) are going to be shattered tomorrow. If Movistar can get their boys to set a decent tempo on the first 2 climbs I think there is potential to see a lot of isolation with 60 km to go. Launch Quintana and even though we know it likely won't stick to the end, at least force Roglic to chase while Valverde and company sit in.

I dont give Movistar that much credit today, it was DQS that gets all of the credit, the had their WHOLE team in the break, how epic is that?, if Bennett had even one teammate in the break he wins the stage, a big Kudos to Quintana for being there and sticking it, also Sunweb was doing a fair bit of driving for Kelderman.
Behind Movistar was actually chasing to protect Valverde's place so it was another case of Movistar vs Movistar, in fact if not for Movistar Quintana might have been in red right now.
Yes further on Astana was chasing very hard with their full squad but in the beginning Movistar was doing lots of chasing, I would have to assume that Quintana can't wait to get the heck out of there.

We've been lulled into GC race style and forgotten DQS' one-day badassery.

You got that right. When they take their shot they have a strikingly high hit rate.

It was impressive how he bridged over to Bennett without bringing anyone else. When the entire break had to have known he was going to counter when Stybar got caught.

I was beating up on Bennett above. And I think he would have been better off holding fire until 200m to go. But it's also worth noting that it caught everyone off guard, and was the winning move. If not for one guy.

Agreed, I think instead of beating on Bennett we should be giving him kudos for trying to do something "outside the box"

Also wanted to note, another strong ride by Craddock, he is knocking on the door of a big result.

Flat stage, wind blowing- you know they're going.

Pogastar looks fresh, relatively speaking. Not an easy day for anyone but he followed wheels well and it may be that he has a little more than most tomorrow. Majka also had some solid help. I don't see how Valverde can hang and Roglic was worked too. Again, Quintana may not be the most likeable guy but that was a hell of a ride today.

Agreed on Quintana, Movistar played it well today. They're a lot more dangerous with Quintana and Valverde right there.

Only 48-hours from good one-day. Lot of potential screen time this weekend.