So... I suspect this is the big story you had touched on a few months ago? This is huge. I suspect there will be a race to Zwift & TrainerRoad next. I would not be surprised at all to see TR or TrianingPeaks get acquired in 2020.

Trainer Road is next......

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"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"

no. i didn't know about this until about a week and a half ago. but i do think this is pretty interesting and, yes, is this a roll up of platforms like this? is Zwift going to come out with its own hardware? is elite going to buy TR? or am i missing the big picture?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Hasn't the industry been going the other direction for a while? Wasn't Virtual Training (Now Rouvy) once part of Cyclops that Cyclops unloaded because it wasn't seen as a compliment to their other products?

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

i don't think so. one brand made that decision. let's talk in 6 months. tell me if you still feel this way.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Garmin will buy TR surely?

They bought tacx, and you can now do TR rides outside on Garmin devices......whole ecosystem sorted.......

i don't know why garmin would be TR. maybe they will. but tacx had probably the best software platform of all the hardware makers, don't you think? except for perhaps BKOOL? apples and oranges but, i think those were probably the two best.

the best thing about TR is that you get a lot of customers. but you also have a more confusing narrative or if not then i'm just not smart enough to see it. now that you've bought a tacx trainer you're ready for... TR? what about tacx? or is it more something to do with garmin's head units? or power meter? i don't see it. can you tell me what you have in mind?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I don’t think TR will get acquired. Just from podcast, I get the impression Nate is too proud and would rather stick to his own vision. I could be way off base though as competition heats up, differentiations become razor thin, and bigger companies such as Peloton steal users as well.

So, I did the free trial of everything that was out there before subscribing to Zwift. Sufferfest? Not a fan. Rouvy was kind of cool...but I hated using my tablet (no MacBook Pro compatibility at the time).

I'm not a fan specifically because of how it interacted with the kickr. I'm definitely dumb so I just leave it erg mode and there were a bunch of rides that were on there that I stupidly did that wanted me to change the settings and I had no idea how to change it.

So, wait and see I guess.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Money talks.

I posted on FB - I think GP Lama’s post that I thought TR would be acquired and was surprised Sufferfest was the first.

Personally I’m a Sufferfest user as I think their system is the best for structured workouts - and for me the most engaging. I’m looking forward to what’s next for them.

nate has a great thing going. i haven't spoken to him. i don't know what he's doing. but i really like him a lot, i like the whole crew, and i think it's just as likely he acquires a piece of hardware than that he sells to a hardware company. the one and only thing he doesn't have is a multiplayer platform. it would be easier for him to have his own direct drive smart trainer than for him to build a multiplayer platform. easier and cheaper, i think. and probably more profitable.

i have my own idea where the hardware market is going next. if nate - or wahoo - does what i think is coming next (or should come next) they'll have the tiger by the tail.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

That is not the case. :-D

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CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast

That was a compliment :). You’ve guided the product through some growth and market changes when it’s have been easy to follow others vs your vision.

knowing what i know, and if i had another life, and if i liked having investors, i would try to roll up 2 companies, TR one of them, and then i'd build a particular piece of hardware, and these 3 "properties" would be the basis of what i hope would be a new major player in the space.

but i've already spent this life, i don't have another one (or if i do my lives will run successively and not concurrently), and i don't like investors. (well, i don't dislike investors; i just don't like it when they've invested in my company.)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Why in the world wouldn't you link to your own story, ya know, for the lazy around here?

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

i'm thought you should work for it! force you to make that 1 extra click! but here it is.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I absolutely love the TR podcast. That's where I really get value from TR. But the TR UI is as bad as Golden Cheetah, and the overall TR user experience just doesn't do it for me. If Zwift bought TR and made the workouts and plans available in Zwift, I would be a happy camper. When I was a TR subscriber last winter, I did one or two TR workouts on Zwift after I found a bunch of the the TR workouts in .zwo format. That was a nice experience, but it is against the TR rules, so... not a viable option. I also tried running both TR and Zwift at the same time, but I like the Zwift Companion app for guiding my workouts, not TR / Golden Cheetah.

I think Zwift + TR would be a terrific product fit, but from what I can tell about the management of each company, a bad cultural fit. And at the end of the day, cultural mismatches make for terrible mergers.

I hope TR finds a path that lets them focus on what they are good at (sharing their enthusiasm and love for cycling, their workouts, and the training plans), but gets them out of what they aren't so good at (software and UX).

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-Mark Rebuck, http://www.markrebuck.com/

The killer--and rarely discussed--feature that Zwift has is automatic uploading of workouts from TrainingPeaks to Zwift. My coach loads a structured workout into TP, and it shows up in Zwift when I log on. It just works, and it simplifies life for everybody.

I *wish* TrainerRoad had similar functionality, but one piece of what TR seems to be up to is to become a competitor to TP. I think that's going to be tough given how widely used TP is.

If Wahoo/Sufferfest offered this feature and offered some sort of cool integration between my Kickr and Sufferfest, that would make me think about swtiching away from Zwift.

Zwift's virtual world doesn't do much for me, but the simplicity of getting my workouts from TP does.

We reckon that the next big thing in hardware is Flogging Stations.

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David McQuillen
Founder & CEO of The Sufferfest

Can we put the link to our own story about Wahoo + The Sufferfest, Dan? Gives a bit more insight than the press release :)
https://thesufferfest.com/...match-made-in-agonia

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David McQuillen
Founder & CEO of The Sufferfest

dang. i tried to keep secret my killer idea. great minds think alike i guess.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Although it's not quite like it works with Zwift, all of our workouts are available as a TrainingPeaks library. So you, or your coach, can find the ones you want and drop them into your TrainingPeaks training plans. Then - if your SUF app is linked to TP - you can see your workout of the day and play it in the app.

THE SUFFERFEST LIBRARY IN TRAINING PEAKS (and, soon, Final Surge)
Detailed descriptions of all our cycling, yoga, strength and mental toughness workouts - including duration, TSS, IF, main workout focus and more - are now available in a free Sufferfest library. You can use that library to drag and drop our workouts into training plans for your athletes. Here’s how it works:

• Go here to get access to the Sufferfest library on TrainingPeaks: https://tinyurl.com/yd673x8m
• You’ll then find that workout library in TrainingPeaks > Calendar > Workout Library
• Click on any workout to see a description and more.
• Just drag any of the workouts to any of your own training plans - whether specific to individual athletes or generic plans you’re selling in the market.
• When athletes see the workouts in their plan, they simply need to go to The Sufferfest App and complete the sessions. When they do, the data will be uploaded to TrainingPeaks so you can review.

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David McQuillen
Founder & CEO of The Sufferfest

that's fine. yours is better than mine anyway. i don't know about you, but i felt very good, but somewhat disoriented, after i sold QR. enjoy it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Wait. You trying to put my coach out of business? :)

I'm excited to see what The Sufferfest can deliver with increased scale and financial security. Best of luck with it, but please don't mess up the integration with my Hammer.

Don't worry -- you'll still be able to do Nine Hammers (and everything else SUF) on your Hammer!

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David McQuillen
Founder & CEO of The Sufferfest

That’s where we’re different. I personally can’t stand Zwift. I’ve honestly tried to give it a go, twice, and it’s just not for me. However, I love TrainerRoad (but not the podcast) and can’t imagine riding the trainer without it.

IMO the big picture here is Peloton. Look, let’s be honest: the Peloton bike isn’t special. In fact, compared to the latest Kickr/Kickr Climb/Headwind combo it is abysmal. I’m sure the people at Wahoo saw the money that was being thrown at Peloton and said “we can do better.” Don’t be surprised if a “subscription” model of the Kickr appears in the future: rather than buying a trainer and subscribing to software, subscribe to both for $50/month or something like that.

I don’t think anyone will buy Zwift but you could see Zwift buy a hardware company like Elite.

you love TR but not the podcast. markrebuck loves the podcast but not TR. if i was eharmony i would not pair you two up.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

have you used a Peloton for a bunch of workouts? I think it is pretty awesome. The bike itself is solid... better than my TT bike on my Neo 2. And the total experience is top notch. Anyone else have content of that quality? No. That would take multiple sound stages and a bunch of pros and quality leaders. I prefer my Neo 2 and TrainerRoad, but the Peloton is far from abysmal.

How’s the power data from that Peloton? Erg? Tilt? Variable fan speed? Structured workout plans to target specific fitness goals?

I’ve used the Peloton at my club (country club). The Q factor is gross and otherwise it feels like a very normal spin bike.

Have you checked out our content lately? It's not spin class instructors facing a camera, but it is stuff like on-bike camera footage from the World Tour via Velon:

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David McQuillen
Founder & CEO of The Sufferfest

its a totally different product. It is great at what it does. I rode one for a while and never noticed Q factor. Definitely not gross. It is not an ERG trainer. It is a killer spin platform with world-class content. Did you ride workouts with the cheerleaders or CVDV and Hincapie? The pro workouts are tough. I prefer TR for its structured workouts, but those are not for everyone. Many (most?) others like the rah-rah of Zwift and Peloton.I haven’t seen your content lately, but that is awesome. I do not like Zwift’s gamification, but the live stuff is fantastic.

Instead of Zwift making its own hardware, my reaction was the reverse. Why would Wahoo keep its Zwift integration tight now? They say in their release they will, but it seems counterintuitive to me.

I know it's a different product and I know it's not an erg trainer. That's my point. Wahoo has superior hardware. Sufferfest is like an "on the road" version of Peloton from a production standpoint but with the bonus being that they didn't use unlicensed music... like Peloton:

https://www.cnet.com/...er-unlicensed-music/

So now Wahoo has awesome hardware and they bought a nice toe-hold in content and content delivery. Their next move will likely be to grow and refine said platform, integrate some of their tech into all-in-one spin bike, go out and raise money, and then launch a multi-tiered subscription service. E.G:

• BYO bike + trainer: $15/mo
• BYO bike, rent trainer: $40/mo
• BYO bike, rent premium trainer: $60/mo
• Buy an all in one bike: $15/mo

Something like that. I think Whaoo's move is smart. It may be innocuous but I suspect they have quite a bit more going on behind the scenes than they're letting on.

Considering they don't integrate control of varia radar...I wouldn't be surprised and I guess that means buy now or a Tac-x?

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I use all 3 - depending on my mood and what i want from the ride.

If i'm serious training then of course i'll use TR. With banging music going i don't need anything more than the simplicity of the moving bars. If i'm just tooling around to ride for fun but don't want to go outside in the weather or i'm housebound with the kids then i'll use Zwift. If i want a killer, fun blast then i'll do a Suf workout.

Don't change TR- I feel a real warmth towards the product and the podcast and the Jon,Nate,Chad,Pete team. It's part of the furniture of my riding life and my commutes in the car. It's made me fast and it's well priced.

I appreciate the passion you show for your company, but I do want to point out one mistake in your article. You say the Kickr was the worlds first smart trainer, but the Computrainer built the first smart trainer a couple of decades earlier. IIRC I believe the Kickr was the first direct drive smart trainer, but I'm sure someone else will correct me if I'm wrong.

This is me exactly. I worry about the day TR gets sold and things change.

Me three.

TR is great just the way it is from a training perspective.

Would love to have my SBR data on the calendar and TSS trends for all 3 sports but besides that the functionality is great.

Podcast is also a favourite part of my week and even my partner, who prior to hearing the TR podcast had little interest in cycling, loves knocking out 2 sweet spot sessions every week and is seeing the rewards.

Or watching Mike Cotty's ass for an hour.

i will also have to agree with this.

i like the simplicity of TR and i have enjoyed seeing the company grow with new features and content over time. with a forum and podcasts, it feels more like a community than just another training platform. they have a great team that really listens and responds to their customers. it gives me what i need, nothing more or less.

I'm just hoping that one day before I'm dead, I can do it using an Android device 🤔

I am a fan of TR and SF. My current subscription is to TR as I am training for a specific event, but after that I could see having the SF as I think the videos are pretty fun.
I also can see a TSaaS plan coming very soon. The cost of the trainer is still a major hurdle to many.
$100 1 time start fee
$20/month for the trainer and SF
after 30 months you can either buy out your trainer and get a discounted SF rate, or send back your old one and get the latest model.
In the above model Wahoo ends up with $700 which I am sure would cover them nicely, and they could sell the old model as a refurb for another $300 or $400.
Stop paying? Some sort of wifi check every x days to make sure your subscription is paid and if not the trainer becomes "dumb" and stuck in the lowest or highest resistance setting.


I do think TR and SF have done a great job of creating a community for their platforms, and even though Zwift has the most users, I am not sure they have done this as much. Zwift has a lot of users because they have a lot of users. I liken it to Facebook VS Google+. The reason FB won, was not that it was such a better of a platform, but that there is no point of being on a social network if you are the only one. Imagine if Wahoo rolled out some form of virtual racing or group rides and made it free if you had a Kickr. I think a lot of people would move it, which in turn would make a lot of people would move to it.

Ha Ha - watching stage 2 of the Tour de France yesterday I said to my wife, "Team Time Trial would be deadly in real life, but boy would it be a fun indoor workout". Opened this thread and Sufferfest has that workout.

Is this a sentence?:
"Multiplayer is where the action is these, so (for one example) were Tour of Sufferlandria morph into multiplayer (I have no evidence that it will) I for one would not consider change to be unwelcome." And if so, what doesn't it not mean?


I assume it means that The Tour of Sufferlandria should become a multiplayer 'game' and if it does, it'd be better for Wahoo and Sufferfest users.


Perhaps the other article is better ;-)

perhaps the other article is better. mine was hastily crafted ;-(

a year ago, maybe 18mo ago, something like that, i think zwift badly wanted what TR and Sufferfest had. TR was (among slowtwitchers at least) the clear favorite, because people wanted structured training. zwift offered a multiplayer experience, but that was perceived as confined to racing or group rides.

i think the landscape is different today. zwift has done a pretty good job of becoming a structured training platform, but it's gone beyond that via the multiplayer experience. when i lead our structured training workout this afternoon, it's a *pro* version of the *gym* version that peloton offers. i think that if TR had its way, it would appreciate adding multiplayer to its suite of experiences. TR had something zwift wanted. zwift has something TR wants. i think. i don't know. but this is my guess. if you like TR's podcast, and you like TR's structured training, then a multiplayer TR experience gets you both, sort of, in one experience.

now, speaking for myself, it's a lot easier to schedule and curate structured training events, weekly events, on zwift than it is to schedule rides or races because you only need 1 ride leader for a structured training event. the big problem with group rides of various levels is that you all love you some zwift! but you won't volunteer to lead any rides. this is a pervasive zwiftwide problem. zwift exposes the narcissistic bent for which we are well known, and one thing about zwift: it does not like unmanaged group events.

so, all the gravity is pulling us toward more structured training events on zwift. you'll see more of these on slowtwitch. and i think the multiplayer dimension to structured training will place pressure on TR and sufferfest (and the other similar platforms), and it would not surprise me if these platforms are investigating this now.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Yes & No, I think 'structured training' & 'multiplayer experience' is hard to combine effectively.

If we ignore what's probably a larger market of spin classes / peloton / general fitness then following a structured plan targeting a specific event will have you doing ride's that are different to others. I'm not simply talking about scaling based on FTP/4DP etc... but different interval lengths & structures.

You could have multiplayer rides that go off every hour from a suite of workouts, but at the moment I see ~1000 people on Zwift, so you couldn't have many workouts active at a time before it would be tricky to have enough people signed up for it.

Personally I run TrainerRoad for the workout & Zwift at the same time for some motivation, whilst it might be a little more entertaining to ride with a group rather than catch random riders it also means I have to be ready at a certain time, whilst that's not super tricky it does decrease the flexibility.

I totally agree, and I think this is missing from much of the discussion. Nearly every time Zwift and TR are mentioned for structured training, it is of the form "Zwift sucks, TR rules!". But Zwift really is a decent/approachable structured training platform. The folks who think TR has some kind of uncrossable moat around their secret training sauce are... probably a bit optimistic.

The things that make TR awesome could be done in Zwift, sometimes easily (e.g. the specific workouts). The things that make Zwift awesome can't be done in TR, at all.

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-Mark Rebuck, http://www.markrebuck.com/

The multiplayer aspect is an interesting one, and something that I know many people thrive on for training. Many people seem to be more social and even have a preference on that element with the training riding shotgun as a side benefit. The group aspect of Zwift and other options surely helped push the indoor cycling and training from the rare to the common over the last 4-5 years. It exploded a market in smart trainers that was a small one for decades.

Two issues I see with the group aspect that must be overcome by any app/service are as follows:
1. Timing of Workouts: If you are to be successful, you need to offer a large range to time slots to fit the variations of many people with widely different schedules. Morning, noon and night are required in general, to meet the timing of people even in the same basic country, not to mention if you aim to be a worldwide option. This means having a scheduling system and likely people leading the workouts. Ideally, you need some decent membership overall to fill workouts so people don't end up "alone" with just the instructor (which leads to the 2nd point). One of the biggest reason that many people add an app like TrainerRoad or Zwift is the freedom to do a workout whenever suits their time in the day. That freedom is lost a bit if you now need to meet at a more controlled (and possibly limited) time.

The whole issue is pro's and con's with things to be gained, but also sacrificed. If you need or value the motivation that comes from a group dynamic, you may have to adjust your personal schedule to match. Others who are happy to roll solo retain that relative schedule freedom. Zwift offers both with the option to do solo or group workouts. Others like TrainerRoad or The Sufferfest will face some work if they try to move into this area.

I know there is interest in this type of group element even in the TR world. We did a "group" event last winter for doing a particularly long and difficult TR workout. The group aspect of Discord chat and discussion in forums lead to some people taking on a challenge they may have never tried on their own. Group dynamics can have a real impact on people and push them to new heights, so I think there is value to consider in that direction.

2. Instructors and Workout Leaders: The two models currently in play are from Peloton (with paid instructors) and Zwift (with many unpaid instructors, and maybe some paid?). Peloton is spending some real money to get people to lead the many workouts they run every day. Zwift is effectively outsourcing some (if not all?) of their workout leaders. It can be a case of you get what you pay for, but I don't think that tells the whole story. I have seen and attended some great lead workouts by "regular" users and coaches. But as with anything done in a looser manner, there tends to be more variability in quality.

You hit on the other difficulty which is simply getting people to lead the workouts. As an unpaid rider in most cases, it's a fair undertaking to even just lead a single workout. Communications and other setup are often required to be successful. Add in the option to make something of an actual training plan and the workload can become large. I marvel at the work some people put into their workouts and the groups that surround them. There is some real great effort supplied by a lot of great Zwift leaders. But that is one reason I think we don't see more people taking on that unpaid effort.

Zwift may keep the community driven aspect that did so well to help it grow, but it may need to take a step towards offering it's own "certified" workouts and leaders. We see this to a degree with things like the Zwift Academy and the more controlled events and workouts. There is enough work to justify compensation, and they may well be doing so (I have no idea, but would't be surprised if people earn discounts or even real pay for some of their work).

- - - -
All that said, I think there is value to group workouts, but they aren't without some work to make them happen. Any app/service has to look at the cost/benefit and where they see themselves in the marketplace.

This is how I decided to go with zwift over trainer road and the sufferfest.

I can manage adding workouts to zwift or simply following a plan while in zwift. If I want to do a group ride I can do that as well. Not so much for the other options out there.

This!
Uploading my prescribed workout from TrainingPeaks to Trainerroad is really a pain in the ass. More so now with the new version where you can't filter workouts by date.
It would be so convenient if they showed up on my TR calendar!
Both my Wahoo Bolt and Garmin 935 have the TP workout of the day loaded without my intervention.

If you're significant other looked at your credit card statement and made you choose one, which would it be?

I'm on Rouvy mainly because of the family plan. I have tried the others and SF is my favorite, but cant justify multiple subs.

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***

We sure do! That workout is called 'Team Scream' and - as you see in that trailer - features on-board camera footage from the BMC team in the Hammer Stavanger race. The workout was designed by our SUF Science Division's Cycling Physiologist, Mac Cassin. Mac has raced the TTT at the UCI World Championships, is a former member of the US National Team Pursuit Squad, 2017 National Points Race Champion and a member of the 303 Project Elite racing team (we believe that who designs your workout matters so we have some of the best in the business). The workout is based on both your FTP and your MAP (maximal aerobic power) numbers so you get an absolutely amazing, effective, realistic and immersive session. Mac considers it his masterpiece (so far). Give it a try!

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David McQuillen
Founder & CEO of The Sufferfest

So glad you enjoy the SUF. We're more than just fun, though (although we are a lot of fun. :)). And if you're training for a specific event, our training plans (more than 100) are designed by our Chief Science Officer, Neal Henderson. Neal has coached his athletes to 47 world championships -- including, most recently, Rohan Dennis to the UCI World TT champs and, last year, Flora Duffy to all her multi-sport wins (he also coaches US sensation Taylor Knibb on the triathlon side). The experience and track record of the coach who designs your plans matters. The plans - which are dialed in to focus address the demands of a particular event and and address your weaknesses - can also integrate our strength training, yoga and mental toughness training programmes for a truly well-rounded approach.

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David McQuillen
Founder & CEO of The Sufferfest

So many good points in here by Chader09.

I’ve been leading rides on Zwift since the beta days. Our group was one of the first to lead workouts well before there was any sort of an event module. We’ve also streamed and organized group rides during the Tour of Sufferlandria. I think we have a lot of experience with what works well and doesn’t.

There’s a great benefit in sharing suffering with another rider. But there isn’t a great solution in Zwift or Sufferfest (yet?) where I can easily communicate with the riders in “my workout” and also monitor how they are performing. We’ve used discord for verbal chat and co streamed to some success.

The comments about different training plans and workouts is dead on. Everyone has a different “A” event and thus are at different spots in their plans. I believe this to be different than peloton users who are primarily fitness oriented and not race oriented.

Lots of issues in social cycling workouts.

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http://www.teamodz.com
http://www.endurancelab.fit

I subscribe to Zwift, TP, TR, and Strava. Main reason for Strava and TR is I forgot to cancel before subscription. So now I have a year long trial period to test them out.

I have a love hate relationship with Wahoo. My 2017 Kickr is fantastic. My Element sucks. I'm on my third one in less than a year. The elevation issue is much known and easy fix with elevation correction in strava. Just annoying. Most recent issue now is my sensors are connected but not displaying data. I put my 910xt next to Element and all data shows on 910xt just not Element. So looks like I get another unit, which I will promptly sell and move back to Garmin.

I left SUF a few years ago but I hear they've matured a lot. I am annoyed how cumbersome it is to use TR on Zwift. I rarely use TR which sucks since I paid for it. I wish it were easier to get it to work with Zwift. I can't just stare at a screen like the pre-zwift days. Zwift workouts are meh. TR are awesome. But I also hear SUF are great as well. So I'll give SUF a try this winter.

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_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

I've done this one. It was really good fun and a great workout. I might schedule in another go at it :)

Interoperability is key. It would be business suicide to stop support/tight integration of Wahoo products with Zwift, just because they acquired a competitor. I’d say majority of Kickr/wahoo trainer riders use Zwift over Sufferfest, as it’s their largest platform and that narrative won’t change.

I switched to an Apple TV unit when my computer died. It works great for swift, hopefully more apps like this will migrate to that platform, I miss having the option to do sufferfest videos.

True, only problem is that what makes TR awesome is NOT being done in Zwift currently.
I gave Zwift a very serious try last year. Their workouts are horrible! I tried 2-3 different plans and doing a week on each or so. They mixes all kind of intensities in one workout with no focus. Wierd random time intervals, sometimes no warmup/warmdown (rare), not seeing progress over the weeks. No "base build specialty" plan based on your end goal, just a "FTP builder" etc. So yes it can be done but it is not their focus, their focus is "esport".
Then they ofcourse have what TR dont multiplayer, either races or strolling around in the world, strolling around is fine what not needing any specific workout. Races, i sadly never got in to i tried, but all races ends up being a ITT after 10 minutes of racing. Also as soon as the road is flat or downwards i think indoor training fails hard. Not being able to push on downs/flats is super annoying, i think there should be some internal minimum gradiant at all time (might be trainer specific).

Made me think of this past weekend dealing, once again, with my Garmin 820 that is on a BTA mount. Every drop of sweat was changing the display and even going as far as attempting to change settings. About mid ride I finally got the screen to lock, but each drop of sweat was still moving to the next screen option. I was so frustrated by the screen sensitivity (edit: I already had it set on the lowest screen sensitivity setting) that I got home and looked at Wahoo. :-) The next day I used my old trusty Garmin 800 and it worked great despite rain and sweat hitting the display. Glad to take note of your reliability issues with the Element. I guess both companies can have their own issues.

I may be the outlier with using a Kickr Gen 1 and PerfPro. I like PerfPro because it is not a subscription and has a lot of features, post ride analysis and settings. I also use WKO4 for the same reason that I don't want to pay endlessly for TP. My first year or so with the Kickr was a PITA, but the past couple years or whenever Wahoo came out with the last firmware update with the Advanced Spin down it got my Kickr within 2 watts of my Quarq power meter on a dedicated trainer bike. It's been running sweet ever since. Once I got it that close with the Advanced Spin down I have left it all alone. Very minimal drift during the trainer sessions as well. With PerfPro I can see the comparison between the trainer watts and the power meter watts.

I feel like the odd guy out because everyone around me in my cycling circle uses Zwift. I am just content to use a simple or typical 2x20ish type sessions in ERG mode, upload from PerfPro to WKO4 and call it a day.

Yes, did several of the SUF training plans for CX and MTB, but at the time there was not a 140.6 plan available. I see that is now changed! Great add.

I'd love to see The Sufferfest on AppleTV!

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Janyne

I would very much like a fully integrated flogging station that's adjustable like a fit bike, can handle the acid I sweat melting winter fat, won't fall apart with big watts and can be hosed off in the driveway on which to shred my chamois. Oh yeah, it must be affordable on a Sufferlandrian's meager salary of cabbage leaves and entirely plug and play.

Hey David, I'm an old time Sufferfest user but drifted away a while back when there was no Android support. That said, I'm hopelessly under-trained for a big time climbing triathlon in September (Savageman). I do almost all my training on the turbo these days. Do you think The Sufferfest can whip my fat *ss into shape in short order?

ERG Mode Flogging?

Wonder if there will be a post ride metric (EFL) to show how much flogging one took during the session and if so does it boost your weekly CTL?

Velotron is a direct drive trainer (possibly not first either), but certainly prior to the Kickr.

Another yes for Apple TV!

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Absolutely! We've got stock plans that can help, but perhaps one of our customised training plans - designed designed by one of our SUFCoaches after a chat and information provided by you - would be better if you've got a tighter time frame, a very specific goal and some life constraints that a plan needs to work around. More details on how that works and what your coach prepares for you here: https://thesufferfest.com/...d-suf-training-plans

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David McQuillen
Founder & CEO of The Sufferfest