I’m pretty sure anything like that would not be legal for a non-wetsuit swim

That’s illegal

Not even something with a buoyant seat pad?

Its all illegal. No wetsuit = no buoyance assist. Just get some better body position (may require 300 hrs of swimming) and make sure your legs and core and well conditioned.

Its all illegal.//

Is it though? I mean I see all kinds of Tri shorts made out of lycra, with seat pads in them, and I presume most of them float. Are you telling me they are illegal to wear on their own> I train in the pool in my DeSoto Tri shorts, they feel heavy. Not sure if they float(probably), but pretty sure they wouldn't float more than a silver dollar worth of weight. Certainly not the advantage of a full on speed suit, which would be legal...

So just because the water temp is above 78 degrees, buoyancy now becomes an unfair advantage? I agree with your recommendations, but the concept of not allowing buoyant shorts when wetsuits are perfectly fine (given temperatures considerations) is lost on me.

If this is your mindset, I can't help you. Just go to your race with a pull buoy in that case and while you are at it, get some dead fish from Frank Cardia (as in finman's fins).

My apologies, I thought I was on slow twitch, and not on let’s run.

.

You have been told what the rules are but continue to try to find a way that they won't apply to you.
Check out the rules for yourself if you don't believe everyone here on ST.
http://ap.ironman.com/...s.aspx#axzz5sNNQcNc2

What part of dev’s response was unclear? Buoyancy aids are illegal.

That said, you could wear a good swimskin, they’ll give a very small buoyancy aid by trapping a little bit of air, plus compression will help reduce drag and improve alignment.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

The rules posted by Ironman give more details about permissible swim gear than the rules posted by USAT https://www.teamusa.org/...ve-rules#article%203

Ironman rules refer to textile materials vs neoprene or polyurethane. USAT states nothing. My local race Sunday (USAT sanctioned sprint/olympic) looks to be too warm for wetsuits so I think I'll be a little more observant this time. I strained a hammie about a month ago so my run's gonna suck, may need those extra seconds to get on the podium.

I can't help you on the shorts but I found a bike you can use in another thread that may help you?
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...;;page=unread#unread

Per USAT rules... above 78 to 84 you can wear something with buoyancy, but be ineligible for awards. Above 84, no buoyancy, including floaty shorts.

I'm not sure what Ironman rules are... honestly for non-wetsuit swims, get a good swimskin and learn good body position to keep your hips up naturally.

Yep, use to be able to ask a question on slowtwitch and get credible and thoughtful responses. Now you get the snark and troll like comments. I like to use a wetsuit and have used them for full seasons. Now with water temps up I’m going to just wear shorts. I understand about overheating in a wetsuit as the reason for not wearing them above 78, it has nothing to do with buoyancy. So my question or confusion was about why at 78 degrees buoyancy now becomes an issue.

But feel free to post criticism, negative comments, and troll me. Slowtwitch probably should be like all the other sites.

I'm not sure I understand where you say "why at 78 degrees buoyancy now becomes an issue". because buoyancy provided by same neoprene shorts is an advantage. Am I not understanding your question? or are you saying they should allow buoyancy shorts no matter the temperature?

No, I understand that the rule is no wetsuit over 78 degrees due to the potential of over heating. I was wondering if there were buoyant shorts available for when wetsuits were not allowed. It was pointed out to me that buoyant shorts would be illegal. So it left me wondering if when wetsuits are allowed buoyancy is ok, why is it that buoyant shorts (which wouldn’t cause overheating issues) are not approved. Yes, it would give an advantage, but so does a wetsuit. Some choose not to wear a wetsuit when temps allow. There may be something about buoyant shorts that I don’t understand. Are these type of shorts illegal in any race? I’m under the impression that under 78 you can wear anything?

There may be something about buoyant shorts that I don’t understand. //

there is, and I think I can clear it up quickly. Buoyant shorts(made from neoprene) = wetsuit. So whenever you see a rule about a wetsuit, it includes buoyant shorts too...

I assumed under 78 you could wear the buoyant shorts.

I see your point here, it's a reasonable question.

I'm not a USAT expert, but just in my impression, wetsuits were mainly originally allowed for warmth - it just happened to be that they give a significant boost in speed due to both buoyancy and the smoother surface. I doubt it was the USAT original intent to let competitors use wetsuits mainly for the speed boost, and that advantage is just a reality of using wetsuits in swimming.

So for warm conditions (where wetsuits can actually be dangerous for overheating - has actually happaned several times!), it makes more sense to just disallow all buoyancy aids that could give a significant speed boost.

Interestingly, in my personal case, I swim SLOWER with a pull buoy than without (by about 7sec/100!) and thus even if they allowed PBs in races, I'd opt to not use one. Nor would I use the floaty shorts. But I don't blame you for asking - I do think wetsuits are very helpful for getting more newbs and rookies into our sport, which is not a bad thing in the state of decline it's currently undergoing.

Wetsuits are allowed under 78 degrees not because of buoyancy, but in spite of it. That's because the greater overriding concern (for Ironman) below that is temperature. So they accept the benefit that buoyancy adds because you can't have one (thermal protection) without the other (buoyancy), but it is not the point of the rule. Its a trade off: Allow buoyancy because it provides insulation and they are more worried about temperature.

Over 78 degrees, they don't have to accept the trade-off because temperature is no longer a concern, so they do not have to allow buoyancy either. Therefore, the sim short is prohibited.

My stance on this is that I love my sim shorts and use them almost all of the time in the pool, but that's because I hardly ever do a non-wetsuit triathlon swim so developing better position and technique is simply unnecessary for me and I am better served working on other things. If I ever do decide to do a race where it is likely or even partially possible it will be non-wetsuit, I'll work on that, but to me as I currently race, its just not a need.

Ok, thanks. Maybe I have the whole wetsuit philosophy wrong. Is it USAT’s thinking that the benefits of wearing a wetsuit in cold water outweighs the advantage of buoyancy, so when there’s no safety benefit (temp above 78) the buoyancy benefit should be nullified? I was thinking that if buoyancy was ok under 78, what would be the reason to eliminate it over 78.

I have a dozen snarky things I could say about this but let me just say that swimming properly, or at least making an effort to, would seem to be a core requirement for a race that includes long swims. You would be a better, faster swimmer with or without the floaty pants if your swim technique was up to par. Not to mention if you ever fell off a cruise ship (sans floaty pants) you might have a chance of making it to shore.

---

"They know f_ck-all over at Slowtwitch"
- Lionel Sanders

Ok, thanks. Maybe I have the whole wetsuit philosophy wrong. //

Yes you do. USAT does not care or factor in buoyancy when using them, they only care about water temperature, and thus have set there temperature numbers. Once again, if it is made of neoprene, it is a wetsuit, pants, shorts, tops, etc., all wetsuits..They had to draw a line somewhere, you may not like that line, but every rule has folks on both sides of it. They try and make them to fit the majority, and penciling in little differences and accept-ions, just complicates rules and makes them even harder to enforce.


I really dont see the problem here anyway, if it is speed one is looking at in warmer non wetsuit legal races, the swim skin is the best bang for the buck..

Hey, thanks for your concern, it's appreciated. I also don't work on a lot of skills that are specific to bike racing, i.e. very up and down surging types of efforts because, well, they aren't necessary in non-drafting triathlon. Or track stands; don't do a lot of those since I don't compete in match sprints. Heck, I don't even work on doing the water jump in my running because I don't do the Steeplechase. And while I agree that maybe I would find a marginal benefit in doing all of the above as it applies to non-drafting long distance triathlon, there's only so much time.

And generally I stay away from boats.

Here's the thing: if your legs, feet and posterior are too low in the water it's usually the result of what you are doing with your head, arms and shoulders. So there's more going on with your swim than just your reliance on a buoyancy aid. Just because the wetsuit brought the stern up doesn't mean you don't have an issue, the bow is still pushing water.

Wouldn't you want to knock 2-3 minutes off a 1.2 mile swim even if it was wetsuit legal? That would be worth a lot to me, more than impressing the lads at the coffee shop with my track stands.

But to each, his own...

---

"They know f_ck-all over at Slowtwitch"
- Lionel Sanders

I get that, and I don't disagree that I could find some advantage if I really invested the time. But that's the rub: How much advantage would I get and how much time would I have to invest? You say 2-3 minutes off a 70.3 swim; that's not nothing, but its also not huge for a mid-packer like me. And the one thing I don't have is an unlimited supply of time and energy to devote to this hobby. To me, it makes more sense to spend that time on the bike and run where I think my ROI is better. Improving one's swim as you are suggesting is not a zero-cost proposition; there are trade-offs and in the grand scheme its a low priority issue for me because (as I said) I don't see any non-wetsuit race swims in my future anytime soon. That being said, I don't use this as an excuse to say I should be allowed to wear sim shorts in a race if it isn't wetsuit legal. I just stay away from races that are likely to not be wetsuit legal to begin with. But I seek out bike courses with a lot of climbing because that suits my strength. Horses for courses, as they say.

I guess my more general point is that I don't hear the bikers on here talking about how we should all be working on criterium racing skills because that will make us better triathlon cyclists. But swimmers seem really put out that many triathletes don't really embrace the purity of swimming for its own sake as opposed to just a component of the overall sport we choose to do.

And I don't do flip turns or butterfly either.

Having read through all of the posts so far I think there is a simple logic.

If you race Triathlon you need to race on a equal plane to everyone else.(level of gear notwithstanding)
If all can swim with a wetsuit, then it's equal (level of gear notwithstanding) even if some chose not to swim in one.

If you need a flotation device to feel comfortable in the water, you are no longer racing on an equal footing with everyone else.
You are now at best a participant, no different than someone who has electric assist on their bike.

There are no races in which you can race alongside a hurdler, but without going over the hurdles.
Learning to swim, is a hurdle, if you don't want to go over, don't do that race.

You’re misunderstanding the rule. It isn’t that above 78 there’s an increased risk of overheating. It’s that below 78, some people may find them necessary to keep warm. Above that, they aren’t really required for warmth, so they aren’t allowed.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

It's not just time Sluglas. It's efficiency. To get your time with an inefficient technique probably cost you more on your subsequent bike and run because you had burned more matches in the swim than someone with the same time as you but better technique.

Flip turns and butterfly aren't mandatory.

You are finding the advantage by wearing shorts IMO and Suttos. My coach trained under Sutto many years ago, is a very accomplished swimmer (first out the water Kona) and has me with a pool buoy most sessions. I have introduced the shorts rather than the buoy leading into Kona not racing in a wetsuit.
https://blog.trisutto.com/the-pull-buoy-debate-2/

Bingo. We have a winner. FWIW 78 is a higher cut off than other countries use.

78= 25.5C

ITU Elite Short - 20C, Long 22C
ITU AG Short- 22C, Long 24.5

The swimwear rules derive from swimming rules where you are not allowed to have any buoyancy.

---

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

---

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

OK, stepping back for a day, I concede that I was somewhat "letsrun-ish" and did not need to take that angle. So let me rewind.

Buoyancy is a by product of protecting us from cold. Buoyancy comes with neoprene which is used to keep us warm. When we don't need the warmth, the buoyance goes with it. The proof that the sport is not trying to give us "free buoyancy" is when they banned wetsuits more than 5mm of thickness. It was felt that excessively thick wetsuits were not needed for warmth and were just diminishing the swim. In the purest sense, when its warm enough, the neoprene/warmth clothing goes. If you look at the rules, other than your neoprene of 5mm thickness, all buoyancy aids are expressly banned.

And I'll admit even when I was actively racing triathlon I hated wetsuit swims because I just felt people did not want to actually learn how to do one of the sports. And was not a particularly good swimmer, but not bad either. I generally worked really hard to get a good body position so I could deal with no wetsuit swims because they are part of the sport.

Now that I race masters swimming as my primary sport, I guess I get even more "over reactive" when I see the general trend to not want to learn to swim. I get that the payback in time is invested in swimming is not great relative to bike-run, generally non technical sports.

However, what I will share is the single year I put in swimming 15-20K per week in 1993 had a permanent effect. I went from a 36 min 1.9K swimmer to more like 29-32min permanently for the rest of my tri life, and thats when I dialed back down to barely 200km of swimming per year (do the math, that's barely 4000m per week). With bike and run, you can't just invest a year doing 6 hrs per week of the sport and keep your gains forever.....in swimming you can.

All those ex fat collegiate swimmers that we all hate who are 60 lbs overweight and kick our ass who we hate....guess what....they did their 50,000m per week for 8 years so they did their time. Most of us have not.

So I urge you to just put in a year of swimming and you'll have the gains forever...you won't need floaty pants.

When is someone going to market trishorts with an inflatable bladder sewn into the liner. A Small hand pump on the waistline. Pump up once you're into the crowd, and let the air out as you exit the water. Walla, make a million bucks.

---

Athlinks / Strava

I'm not sure wetsuits actually have to be made out of buoyant material. Before I bought a tri wettie, I had a surfing wetsuit which was warn but made abso no diff in speed. I tested it out in the pool by swimming 2 x 500 yd at mod effort with 2 min rest in between, one in the surf wettie and one in just my Speedo; both 500s were within a second of each other. In contrast, when I got a tri wettie, hell, I could tell immediately, just from pushing off the wall, that I was riding higher in the water, kind of like a super pull buoy. I've often wondered if Dan had to bribe the USAT, or actually Tri Fed as it was then, to allow his new neoprene wettie. :)

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Surfing wetsuits are buoyant.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Wetsuits are permitted for safety due to temperature, not buoyancy, which is merely a side effect and an unfortunate one at that.

And frankly I would say that the 3:5 wetsuits are an unfair advantage at all times. Most other gear helps the better athlete more than the worse athlete, not those wetsuits, which help make up for someone being a rubbish swimmer.

Just because you only gain 2-3 min on a 1.2 mile swim doesn't mean that's all the time that you gain. If you are a stronger swimmer you leave the water feeling fresher, thus that translates to a faster bike and faster run at the same effort. If the swim was last then maybe your swim time will only effect your swim time. However, it's first.

---

https://www.strava.com/athletes/23685202

Well, perhaps my surfing wettie was ever so slightly buoyant, but if so, its buoyancy was essentially negligible compared to the triathlon wettie.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Sorry for the tangent. This is the aspect I didnt appreciate coming into the sport. Something just doesn't sit right with me that $s spent can have such a huge effect on results. I get it, understand, not proposing anything different just doesn't sit right with me. Just probably being a naïve idiot :)

Nope, Dan didn't bribe anybody. We didn't have the money to do that.

---

Karen ST Concierge

If it was warm and made of neoprene, it was buoyant. That's just how they work...

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

With regard to your note...on my note, "level of gear notwithstanding"

Let me make a few observations, because truthfully it's easy to get blinded on these forums.

The level of gear you have, above just basically good, means bupkiss. Literally. bupkiss.
And this is why....(in my opinion, it's an opinion, because all opinion passes for fact here).

Out of literally hundreds I have raced one particular IM distance race on four different bikes and four different wetsuits, over the course of twenty years (6 times + 2 HIM + 1 Olympic).

The fastest swim I had was in a sleeveless. The rest, including a simsuit (quicker T1) were all within 2 minutes of each other.

The fastest bike was on a Cervelo Dual (their discontinued,cheapest model), with a wheel cover and an OEM front wheel (picture on here). You can buy that rig for a few hundred today (not mine). I'll admit it was faster than the steel frame $200 Nishiki with a clamped on aero bar or the $90 10 speed from The Bay. But that was because I couldn't actually sit on the Nishiki for 6'ish hours, knew nothing about gears, nutrition, hydration, position and wore a T shirt with running shorts. The several thousand, more costly bike, saddle, expensive wheels, aero suit, better nutrition and hydration, gave me the same results, since I learned to sit.

Doesn't matter how much you spend on shoes and a hat, you ain't going faster unless you train.

Most people waste more time in transition that they ever gain from the equipment. Including me.

I don't regret buying the toys (men and boys..), but you don't need them.
A Rolex still only tells the time.

Probably true! I did just finish my second tri ever at 50 yrs old at IMMT 70.3 in 6 hrs on a 20 yr old road bike and a used/ripped entry level wetsuit :)

My old surfing wettie was not made out of neoprene. I can't recall what it was made out of but it was not the black shiny neoprene. Jason, I don't know what I can do to make you believe me but NON-BUOYANT WETSUITS DO EXIST. I KNOW B/C I WASTED MY MONEY ON BUYING ONE BY MISTAKE BEFORE I FOUND A REAL TRI WETTIE. So, all I'm saying is that, if USAT wanted to, they could require wetsuits to be non-buoyant. They could test them fairly easily: just throw the suit in the pool and see if floats or sinks. Of course, after 35 yrs of floaty wetsuits, this will never happen.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I’m wondering when people started using wetsuits in triathlons

I don’t recall anyone at Lake Placid wearing one in ‘84. I ended up with hypothermia. Speedos only going down hill in something like 55 degree weather I winder why lol

Last thing I remembered, before waking up in the back of the car 3 hours towards Rochester, was getting off the bike in T2.

I think around 1986-ish. I recall seeing them at Hilton Head in 1987, where the water was just barely wetsuit legal. Sounds like you got hypothermic on the bike though, but I'm sure being freezing coming OOTW was part of it. Sheet, I would've taken time to put on tights and long-sleeved shirt in T1. I abso HATE being cold on the bike. :)

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I have never seen a surf “wettie” that did not have neoprene. Rash guards yes, “wetties” no. Just because it is not black or shiny, does not mean it is not neoprene. Most wetsuits have fabric on both sides, to protect against abrasion of the rubber on the board- so you rarely see the actual neoprene. Also, swim wetsuits are design for optimum flotation of a swimmer, surf suits are temp only- so a win wetsuit would almost always get you higher in the water than a surf suit. Hope this helps.

Your biggest problem regarding swimming is you clearly do not understand it. If you did, you would now that you could reduce your current pool time by REDUCING your pool time it you focused on technique and water body balance. Swimming for any amount of time with bad form is totally wasted time. Go back to basics, learn to float properly, learn to swim...you will be much faster with much less effort.
Regarding your bike comments- it is that attitude that results in so many unnecessary bike crashes. Bike skills, including balance at very slow speed, including track stands, is essential for safety, and will also make you faster- that is the main reason so many top pro cyclists choose rollers

To the original post- the rules are clear. We could all waste thousands of hours debating the why to any rule. The replies you received to your question were simple, to the point answers, which is not snarky.
If you don’t like the rules, write to the governing bodies and request changes, or don’t race.

It was not just a "rash guard". All I can say is that the surf wettie I had was not buoyant at all. As I said 4 or 5 posts ago, I tested it vs just my Speedo in a 2 x 500 on 2 min rest, and same time within 1 sec. BUT the biggest thing is that, when I bought a Quintana Roo wettie, OH MY DOG, I could INSTANTLY FEEL that I was MUCH more buoyant. There was abso no comparison betw the two. Soooo, I still say tri wetsuits could be made non-buoyant.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

If you threw the wetsuit in the water all by itself, did it float? Yes? Then it was buoyant..

Just because you did a "test" means nothing about whether it was buoyant or not. Just because the other one was more buoyant doesn't mean the surf wetsuit wasn't buoyant at all.

I can't think of any insulating materials that you can wear that wouldn't float, at least until they become waterlogged. And then they cease to be good insulators.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

This is a huge part of it. I can go 18:00 for a 1500m swim in the pool and be totally slacking it... at masters meets I'm about a minute faster. The trick is not training a bunch of 1500s at slacker pace but tons of shorter intervals at or above race pace.

---

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

It might have been very, very slightly buoyant but compared to the QR it was not significant.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

if only there was a way to know the answers to questions like this ;-(

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I didn't want to bother you Dan b/c I know you're busy with important tri-business stuff, but if you have the time, please tell us a brief history of the tri wetsuit. I'm espec interested in whether there was any discussion with Tri Fed about wetsuits being worn mainly to provide buoyancy, which technically I think would be in violation of the rules??? If you've read my other posts in this thread, you know that I bought a negligibly buoyant surfing wetsuit before I discovered your QR wetsuit, which was super buoyant compared to the surfing wettie. Thus I think it is possible to make a relatively non-buoyant wetsuit???

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I think you are right

i would imagine i wrote all this somewhere on slowtwitch (on the front page), but in short strokes, prior to the beginning of the 1987 northern hemisphere season, nobody wore wetsuits unless the swim was quite cold. the founder of aquaman wetsuits (in france) disputes this. but, we had a lot of europeans coming to socal to train and race, and none of them brought a wetsuit. yes, there were wetsuits marketed to triathletes, bodyglove had ads in triathlete mag as far back as 1984, but they were pretty much just surf wetsuits, and only marketed for warmth, and nobody wore them in races.

at bass lake, in 1986, scott tinley and gary peterson wore their surf wetsuits. the race was in september then, and we were standing in snow waiting for the gun to go off. i thought to myself, well, tinley is going to be comfortable in the swim, let's see whether he feels it was worth it later, after he gets smoked. and he didn't get smoked. he swam fine.

that's what gave me the idea that a wetsuit, optimized for swimming, might actually be a worthwhile thing to own. very long story short, there was about a 6 month interval between that bass lake race and the first wetsuits i had available for sale. my investigation into this wasn't at all, in the least, for commercial purposes. i just was curious. this didn't become a commercial enterprise until i swam my first 100 yards in my first wetsuit designed for surface swimming. i honestly didn't know what that would yield. my hope was simply that it wouldn't be slower than swimming without a wetsuit. i had to swim a second 100 because i literally thought i'd made a mistake in timing while swimming my first 100, because i swam that first 100 about 7 seconds faster than i should've. only after that first pool test did it occur to me that there's a business opportunity here.

i could not convince any pro, beyond an initial 4 or 5 who were well known to me, that the wetsuit was worth racing in. the only pros who had an open mind were monty, andrew macnaughton and brad kearns. back in 87, the latter 2 were arguably, over the first half of the season, the world's fastest, and part of that i'm sure is they had the 2 newest pieces of tech before anyone else did: the scott bar and the QR wetsuit. all the other pros - and i mean all of them - were certain they'd swim slower in the wetsuit than out of it. i didn't sweat it. for each of them, that notion lasted exactly 1 race.

there were 2 local pros, tom gallagher and mike fillipow, who were also early converts, simply because i need to photograph someone in my wetsuits and those 2 graciously agreed. i still have those photos; they're on slowtwitch.

it never occurred to me to ask TriFed (it wasn't called USA Triathlon back then) about legality. there was no way they'd make the wetsuit illegal. what i did do was place on myself the guardrail of 5mm max rubber thickness. i felt that if i kept the wetsuit to a reasonable thickness, and didn't get greedy, that the federation would give me no problem.

i have tried to get a photo for years, from the bakersfield californian, from 1987, in may, the bakersfield triathlon, a photo taken from the water, looking back at the start, right as the gun went off, the pro field first, and behind them the first age group wave. the entire pro field is in wetsuits, pretty much all of those wetsuits mine, and just behind in the AG wave none of them in wetsuits, except 1 brazilian aspiring pro who i happened to know. that pic represented, to me, and still does now, the difference between those who actually know stuff, who need to know stuff, for whom science, technology, engineering, facts, are imperatives, versus those who're oblivious, or who unwittingly suffer from their ignorance or obstinacy.

most of those pros in that image did not want to wear a wetsuit; but every one of them was faced with a reckoning with what is, rather than what ought to be. it's a parable for decisions we're all faced with in life; and the bifurcation between our behaviors when the shit gets brown versus our behaviors when we have (or think we have) the luxury of acting on caprice and whimsy. my editorializing is beyond the scope of your question. but you got it anyway ;-)

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Opposite for me... Last year long slacker sets. This year race pace or faster shorter sets... I ended up going 2 min slower at my "A" race (other races slow too)

Well, the 1987 Bakersfield AGers simply did not know about wetsuits yet, that's all. Obv they all learned in the next few years. Thanks very much for the history!!!

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

yes, you're right. i'm not blaming AGers for a decision they didn't know they needed to make (altho bako was probably the 4th or 5th race on the socal calendar that featured wetsuits). i guess i was more thinking of the response of the pros. not so many of them wanted to wear wetsuits (all of those from a swim background would have preferred wetsuits to be illegal). but when faced with actual facts, that could not be denied, that were not open to interpretation, that overcame the luxury of opinions, there is only one rational response, and that photo was visual statement of that.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think around 1986-ish. I recall seeing them at Hilton Head in 1987, where the water was just barely wetsuit legal. //

Actually everything was legal back then, there was not upper temp where they were not allowed. And I recall that race, water was like 84 degrees. Half the pros ditched the wetsuits, while others of us wore our full QR suits. That was the last time any pro ditched their suits, all the money spots came from the wetsuit group that was a couple minutes up the road before any of the others got into T1.


And yes, a lot of us got overheated, and it was very uncomfortable. Some people it affected later in the race too. But bottom line was, that enough did not suffer to the point of losing the time gained in the swim..I believe it was shortly after that swim, that a new rule was put in place for water temps and wetsuits...

So it sounds like the buoyancy was a feature, and not a bug, in convincing people to adopt wetsuit use (and convincing you to go into commercial production). It really wasn't about warmth, it was about speed. Is that fair?

That really has to piss off the swimming purists.

It sure does...

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

But notably, it wasn't about giving people that can't swim very well a crutch to get through the swim. It was adopted primarily by pros seeking a few minutes advantage into T1.

But didn't they know that swimming in a wetsuit would wreck their form and allow them to adopt all kinds of bad positional habits? Weird.

Doesn’t make me dislike wetsuits any less.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

It was adopted primarily by pros seeking a few minutes advantage into T1.

But didn't they know that swimming in a wetsuit would wreck their form and allow them to adopt all kinds of bad positional habits? Weird. //


No, it actually was for cold water swims. A lot of us were wearing surfing wetsuits in races, but also believing they were slower. We had a lot more cold water swims back in the day too, not the made for prime time swims most races go after now. I remember doing some low 50's swims with no wetsuit at all, it was rough, but I liked what it did to others I was racing. Not until Dan's wetsuits did we figure out that they also could be fast, and once we did, wore them every chance we got.


As for the stroke and position comments, I have no idea what you are talking about. the wetsuit puts one in the position of a guy swimming an 18 second 50 yard race, without any effort at all. And once that position is achieved, then good stroke mechanics usually follow. It shows one how to swim with good position and follow with mechanics, since you are not spending any effort to hold position in the first place..


And pretty much all the pro fields back then had some swimming background, so were not learning how to swim in their wetsuits, but adopting the new stroke and dynamic that it afforded..

you bet buoyancy was a feature or, to put it another way, speed was a feature and whether it was buoyancy or hydrodynamics was a detail. i got the open water swim association's lifetime achievement award one year. half the attendees clapped. the other half scowled.

wetsuits are like viagra, or any other legal performance enhancer.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

They do put you out of position to kick effectively.

---

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

wetsuits are like viagra, or any other legal performance enhancer.

Viagra is an apt analogy. They help the underperformers way more than the skilled performers...

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Actually, given the OW purists' visceral hatred of any swim gear beyond Speedo, cap, and goggles, I am really shocked that they gave you that award. I mean, to this day the Channel Swimming Assoc will not recognize an English Channel swim if done in a wettie, which is why I have never really thought of trying it. I'd have to gain 40-50 lb to survive 10 hrs or more of 55-ish water. :)

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Learn how to swim.

A quick skim suggests (although I may have missed it) that no one have disabused you of the point about over heating.
You have it all wrong.

All swims are non wetsuit, unless it is too cold, in which case wetsuits are allowed for warmth.

NOT

All swims are wetsuit, unless it is too warm to prevent over heating.

Fixed your problem for you :-)

Like I mentioned previously, the snark from some of you is amazing. I actually thought most swimmers were decent individuals willing to help those of us from non-swimming backgrounds learn to swim better. I’m still going to hold on to that ideal. I did not realize what a sore point this issue was when I started this thread. I also didn’t realize that buoyancy was such a taboo to swimmers. As I always do with triathlon related questions, I asked for suggestions thinking someone would know. My intention was not to find a way to cheat, and not to make an excuse for not working on my sinking hips. I appreciate the information provided as I was unaware of the rules regarding the use of these items in non-wetsuit legal swims.

...and I would never tell someone looking to improve their running to just ‘learn how to run’.

If you had a thicker skin, then you'd float better and wouldn't be looking for buoyancy aids :-D

(the :-D indicates that I was making a joke. Probably not a good one though, most of my jokes are terrible).

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

With the current FINA marathon swimming rules which allows wetsuits under 20°C, I'm feeling that the mainstream swimming community now accepts wetsuit as part of swim races which is a standard equipment in cold water. (I maintain a difference between solo channel-swim style swims and swim races as different disciplines in a sport).

However, I still maintain that wetsuit is a performance enhancer which should be considered a separate category in open water swimming races, because I need to do races non-wetsuit to prevent overheating when other people are putting their wetsuit on even in 22°C water!

You're right that there should be separate categories for wetsuit and non-wettie swimmers in races where the water temp is in a certain range, the exact numbers of which I will leave open for debate. If the race doesn't separate out the two, then a good choice for you might be the buoyant shorts. You are really an outlier though in not wanting a wettie at 20* C. :)

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I will probably want one if the swim is 5 km in 16°C and I need to ride a bike afterwards.

At risk of answering your question, the pads in Desoto shorts and trisuits float, therefore would provide some buoyancy, albeit probably not a lot.

I think I’ll do the channel one day. When people first started making the crossing the reason they didn’t wear a wetsuits obviously only because they hadn’t been invented. I feel pretty confident that, had you walked down to shore and given Capt Webb a wetsuit, told him this will make you faster and stay warm, he’d have put it on in a second.

In April/May of 1988 my US swim club went to lake Conroe and did an open water race. One of the older kids who later became a decent pro triathlete - I cannot remember his name but TJ Fry probably does - wore a wetsuit to warm up because it was just a little bit chilly but then took it off to race!

Learned a lot from this thread, didn't know there was such a strong culture and opinions around the topic!

I think the simple, non antagonistic answer is this: The shorts count as a wetsuit, use them when its wetsuit legal if you want, wear a skinsuit or none at all if its not. I have never been in a non-wetsuit legal race and probably never will unless I move, so it's unlikely I'll run into this issue personally anytime soon.

Furthermore, we have so many variations of wetsuit (full, sleeveless long leg, 3/4 arm, short leg, short leg sleeveless, etc) that I think of these neoprene shorts as no more than another variation of the above.


Seems to me all the talk about wetsuits being a "insulation tool" first and a speed tool second (in concept) is a bit weird once you look at all the marketing around "what's the fastest wetsuit" and all the special "air pockets" they build in, for optimal positioning...speed, etc... If it was accepted purely a cold water safety tool, I can imagine there would be less room for differentiation in the market from entry level $150 amazon-recommended suits to $900+ suits.


To answer the original question, here's the offerings from Roka:

https://www.roka.com/...pe=product&q=sim

I have the Sim Elite IIs and I think they increase my 100m pace by about 5-10 seconds, if I had to guess.

I've had these for a couple years now, and wear them on every OWS once the water is warm enough that I don't feel comfortable in a full or sleeveless wetsuit.

I have also raced in them once or twice before I got a wetsuit. As far as I can tell, it was 100% legal at the races I used it at, which were non-IM smaller events. Also, no one really cares if you are a mid-pack age grouper, if you are entering as an elite or pro maybe the scrutiny comes down on you a bit more. Do what you like, you aren't ruining the sanctity of the sport unless you are trying to really get an unfair advantage that subverts the rules.

---

Clubs/Affiliations: The Rippers / Charles River Wheelers / Cambridge Sports Union

Ah yes, I remember this thread! I should have just asked if EPO came in different flavors! At the time I had seen Roka ads and heard of people using various swim shorts so was just curious. My go to option for wetsuit legal is a sleeveless (full suit if very cold), so if it’s a non wetsuit legal swim I’ll just keep on wearing Tri shorts. Thanks for the cordial reply, it was actually what I hoped for in the first place!

Yes, buoyancy is an unfair advantage if it’s a non-wetsuit swim.

---

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com