Could it be a poor fit on the SC that's causing a lack in ability to comfortably push?

do you (does she) have a power meter?

This is a great reason to learn the Chung method / aerolab.

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She feels very comfortable on SC and basically never comes off the aerobars during the race. That being said, since this is her first year on TT/Tri bike the fitter mostly copied her road fit from AR (she also has mini clip-ons on AR).

AR does, but SC is not yet (in the mail :-)

There's no way the SC isn't more aero. It's possible the gearing difference is nicking a little off the average speed potential of the Speed Concept in certain circumstances, but it can't entirely account for a 22 vs <21 mph difference. Some possible explanations:

-AR3 average speed is in a draft pack?
-Course/weather comps aren't relevant
-She's just not putting out as much power on the SC

Also, at 5'9", I'd definitely be looking at shorter cranks for the SC. Shimano now has R7000 105's in 160mm length. While you're at it, change from 50/34 to a 52/36.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

She isn't properly fit on the Speed Concept.

you did not see a real bike fitter

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Could be ... I just added a picture.

Road bike with clip ons vs. TT bike isn't that huge an aerodynamic delta. The TT bike should have the potential to be faster, but a lot of other factors can mask that delta. Are you being careful to really compare apples to apples (21mph vs. 22 mph on the exact same course in the same condition, while putting out the same watts). As another poster mentioned, this is where some Chung method aero testing can be important. That all said, you don't really need to aero test to know the TT bike has the potential to be faster. It is almost certainly some combo of:

-) Her position is worse on the TT bike
-) Her power is worse on the TT bike

I would just focus on improving those two things and the rest should take care of itself.

ETA: I would double check that there isn't something dumb like a dragging brake.

Just added a picture ...

He said they just copied her road fit which is exactly what it looks like they did.

and that's stupid

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that's really bad.

that's what I call a "bike shop fit" or a "kitchen table fit". As in, you just sat down in a chair at the kitchen table and just leaned forward on your elbows to grab a knife and fork.

That said, this has no relevance as to why she's supposedly faster on her obviously slower road bike. It could be less power, weather, road conditions, etc. It's NOT because the Felt is faster than the SC.

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I'm not a fitter, but that fit doesn't look fast. Do you have a picture of her on the road bike doing a TT. My bet is she looks better there.

Another comment from someone that is not a fitter but copying a road bike fit into a TT bike doesn't sound like the right way to go

22mph average and elite?

Also, that fit does look quite terrible. Also, Alistair Brownlee once said in an interview he gets more power out of his regular bike than his TT bike. Slightly different muscle use or a different ratio of muscles used can make all the difference in the world.

ya that is not a tri fit at all. a kitchen table would be faster than that position.

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The fit is an issue but I imagine she is having a difference in power also and has not really learned "how" to ride the bike yet.

To those asking about the gearing and questioning her being elite - he notes that she is on JR gears and its his daughter, most likely she is under 18 years of age still. It wouldn't be legal for her to change the gears around and I would venture to say a female under 18 that is able to maintain that speed (although distance/elevation isn't mentioned) would be fairly "elite".

The bike fit on the SC is shit. So much more room for improvement:

- A better seat that allows her hips to rotate forward (eg: ISM PN3.0). She's sitting on the SC like she's riding a road bike.
- More pad x
- Less pad y
- Get her head DOWN.
- shorter cranks 165 mm or less

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we shouldn't even say that... this is not a fit that can be "improved". They need to completely start over.

It's like being asked how to improve a house and being shown a picture of a panther.... it just doesn't compute.

But yes, the saddle is always the key to a good bike fit.

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She has a 52T chainring on the other bike with the same "junior" cassette. Apparently that combo meets the rollout limitations, at least with a 23c rear tire. I'd certainly want to see as much top end as legally possible on a TT/tri bike.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

You are right - she is 15, rated top 30 nationally last year

Yea it does - when I was racing JR's we would get away with a 53 x 14 and some 23 rear tires and not much air pressure in them. It was always questionable by the Ref but it measured close enough and they were always rushed to get through the riders so they typically didn't fuss about it.

That is fantastic! Congratulations and its good to see she has interest in the sport and you are doing everything to help nurture that!

Dad, where are you located? Is non draft important? She has the opposite of a top 30 nationally bike fit. Let’s figure out which reputable fitter is close to you.

Eric

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Well, I don't want to admit but I'm about her size bit heavier but still under 130.
Her fit is not right. She can go lower and lean forward a little.
Once fit is done right, she can haul ass for sure.

Dad, just to echo other responses, she should go to a competent TT fitter. Her fit looks like she is on a road bike. She's way too far back. Hips should be rotated downwards. Head needs to be down. She should have plenty of flexibility to get lower but it might be more of a case of teaching her how to ride the TT position, which a competent TT fitter could also do.

I have an aero road bike and a cheap old TT bike and the TT bike is always faster than the road bike unless the course is straight uphill with no descent.

2-3mph faster on the TT bike for the same power is the guide I normally work to.
The SC is a bit of a pain to adjust, so you're going to need to find a fitter with a fit bike who will firstly get her into an appropriate position for that style bike - that's pretty basic but as you've seen not many fitters can do even that. Secondly they should go through a process of testing different options, taking feedback, assessing limitations etc in order to find the best position for her now. And finally they should be keeping an eye on UCI rules for position, just so there are no surprises if she wants to do any serious bike races.
Then you'll need to get the giraffe stem swapped out and the bike configured to her new position.
After that it should be a lot more enjoyable to ride and she can work on adapting to the new position.

We are in MD, south of Baltimore, Ellicott City. Thanks!!

Her priority is draft legal, but she also ocasionally does sprint age group and road TT.

I wish I could average 21MPH!

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She's about to get 1.5 mph + back just from a real fit. Looks like she's set up to engage the wrong muscles while cutting the the air like a parachute. You should be excited for her, good things coming, and good luck. Awesome to see the sport getting younger in the US.

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My daughter also does USAT junior elite and occasional bike races, but just crits though, so no TT bike for her. Once in a while for a local sprint non-DL race, she will put on a clip-on bar. But I've never measured the speed difference. One thing for sure, like all other said, is that copying the road position to TT is definitely waste of the TT bike's potential. Even with clip-on bars for my daughter, she would at least move the saddle forward and handlebar down a bit to rotate her position forward, it's nothing like her road riding.

I agree with others, you need to find a good fitter to do a proper TT fit. There are a few good bike fitters around here (I am in Northern VA). Kur at VeloFit in Herndon is super knowledgeable and has worked with some pro riders in the area, e.g. JoeD; I've also heard good things about VeloConcepts in Culpeper where several of the uber-triathletes in the area get fitted there.

If you put the gearing ratios into a speed calculator
50x14 @ 95rpm = 26.7mph
52x14 @ 95rpm = 27.7mph
for the entire range the 52/38 is about 1mph faster than the 50x34

obviously you need power to compare exactly but just the chain rings could be the difference

http://speed_at_cadence

Just added a road bike pic at the beginning of the thread. Thanks!

Thanks for the references! They must be rivaling each other at the elite cups then :-) Did you go to Richmond and/or Wisconsin?

The answer can be more adequately answered once you have a power meter on each bike. Even then, for most accurate results, if you could use the same pedal based power meters on each bike to see how the power measures up to her MPH. Remember that there can be a significant difference between two modern power meters.

It's the same race series, but my daughter is racing the junior (16-19) and I believe yours is in youth (13-15). Next year they will compete against each other. She races for Endorphin and knows quite a few girls from MC Elite, as well as coach Lausch. Yes we were in Richmond, but not Winsconsin. Next stop is Monroe, and then Iowa, and then Nationals. We've been doing this for a few years now, and enjoy both the process and the competition very much.

This is close to what she maxed out on the same (flat) course during Tri It, Bear, DE -- 28.1mph on AR past year and 26.2mph on SC this year, which confirmed she is slower on SC despite much more favorable weather this year.

My daughter is first year junior this year (her racing age is 16), she is with MC Elite. This is her second year on elite circuit. She also raced couple crits last year, including Nats. See you in Iowa then!

I agree, bad for on the TT, just crank that seat as far forward as you can a drop a heap out of the aero spacers (way too high at front) then she will be able to get over the crank and generate power.

I'd say check out ERO. Their east coast facility is up in PA (Allentown area I think), but very reputable.

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Small world. I live in EC. Is she planning on doing Church Creek? I'm a bit scared to ask who around here fit her on the TT bike...

Wow, yes indeed ... as usual :-)!

Yes, she has done all CCTTs for the past 3(?) years, but not sure about this year yet as she may opt going to the track with BYC on Sunday, but unlikely both ...

Hmm, well, pm me if any :-) Like I mentioned, the fit is very comfortable and she can stay on aerobars forever.

Can you recommend someone in the area for "advanced" TT fit? Thanks!

I believe Race Pace in Ellicott City just got a new Bike Fit person, he was at Princeton Sports in Columbia and is really good.

Sadly locally I don't know anyone who does aggressive fits. Everyone local seems to be in that comfortable to complete Tri fit category of fitters. I personally did a combo of self fit with a pretty comic slowtwitch fit thread years back (that helped quite a lot), then went to see a RETUL fitter. That fitter did help fix some saddle height issues that were impacting my knee tracking, but basically left alone my drop and front end position. I then spent time tinkering on my own doing a combo of field testing and basement video. The result is that I'm pretty slippery and do pretty well for my relatively weak power. However, it also means that I can't really recommend anyone here that can start from scratch. I do have a local buddy who just finished 11 in TT Nats. I'm not sure if he self fit or not, but can ask if he has a recommendation.

Yes, right, I think I heard about this guy. Thanks!

Thanks!

When the bike just came from from the factory (custom order) few months ago I decided to check out the bottom bracket bearings by simply hand spinning the cranks with the chain removed, they spun like a single turn and ... stopped, tried it again -- same result. Turned out the shimano Crank Arm Fixing Bolt was waaay over torqued!

The most significant variable linked with speed is temperature. If the comparisons were made in one case with cold temp and on the other with hot temp, hot temp give always much better speed.

Aha!

Is the average speed on the road bike taken from her races? If it is all draft legal on the roadie then I'd expect it to be fast, assuming she finds herself in a working group pretty often and not riding solo.

That might explain some of it. But it still shouldn't distract us from the piss poor TT bike fit she has had. Man, you should be excited, when you get her fit properly she will get a free turbo boost!

Cheers, Rich.

I'm very friendly with the RPEC guys, they do some fine work on my bikes. That said, I'd be a touch skeptical about a TT fitting there (they are probably fine for a road or MTB fit). I'd want to know the names of some fast people the fitter has worked with who had good TT results for example before getting fit. Would be great if there is someone there who can do an aggressive fit for someone at the pointy end, but it would suck to waste time to go get yet another comfy but slow fit.

Thanks! The best apples to apples would be perhaps the same 10.0 mile flat course at Tri It (non-draft sprint), Bear, DE. Last year in mid-upper 80s (?) humid weather she averaged 21.17 and maxed 28.1mph on AR (according to bike comp). This year, low to mid 70s, nice weather, lower humidity, she overaged 20.63 and maxed 26.2mph on SC. The bike comp may not be super accurate, but the official bike time was exactly 1min slower this year (she still took OA though :-).

Thanks, Rich! Kinda both. My thumbly expectation (I do not race myself) was that a "well fitted" TT should be roughly as fast as a roadie in the pack. Will let you guys know once the fit is redone.

I'm still digging around in DC and Baltimore but there's Dave Luscan in Richmond, VA and me in Raleigh, NC. We both do remote fits via video.

Eric

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Ooo dang - I stand correct with my comment. Well done and props to you for supporting her goals! Make sure she stays away from boys - they are nothing but trouble for success (at least women were for me) haha.

No, the chainring difference only matters when its steep enough downhill to be spun out in the 50/14, but not to steep enough to be spun out in the 52/14. That's probably a ~1.2mph bracket somewhere in the 28 -30 mph range, which would likely only be a small portion of any course for someone averaging 21-22 mph.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

That sounds to me like the fit is off. TT position in the aerobars is NOT supposed to be "comfortable" where you can ride "all day long" - it normally means the aerobars are little too high and the saddle is too far back (relative to bottom bracket).

Hmmm.

:)

Difficult to tell from the pictures, but are the pads for the clip-on bars on the Felt actually lower than the pads on the Trek?

Definitely a lot of free speed available in the Trek bike fit, even with some basic adjustments (and possibly the Felt, too, depending on what her racing/aero position looks like on there).

The aggressive TT-type fits are more of a niche within the bike fitting world, so you should almost expect to look more at the regional level than the local level. I'm a Howard County resident as well (time trialist), and I don't think I would go to one of the local shops for a more aggressive TT bike fit. Several can do the "comfort" triathlon fits, though, but I suspect that's essentially what you already got.

Looking more regional, one of my teammates (who is a very accomplished time trialist) got his most recent TT fitting from Jared Nieters at Haymarket Bikes in VA. ERO (in PA) has been mentioned already; I can't speak for the PA location, but their owner/founder (who's on Slowtwitch, too) does the bike fits for Rohan Dennis (among others), so they have to be doing something right.

I know you are trying, but a picture of her in the drops on the road bike isn't helpful for comparing positions. I was hoping to see if her position in aero on the road bike was better than in aero on the TT bike. It is hard to tell for sure, but it looks like the drop from saddle to the clip on bars is more than on the TT bike. But a lot could depend on how she positions herself (does she choke up on the bars, etc), so without a picture on the road bike in aero it isn't useful. Also, it sounds like you may have been comparing a draft legal speed with non draft, which just throws the comparison out the window. On the plus side, I suspect you have gotten some good advice here on how to move forward. From the right perspective it is a fantastic thing that her position is bad; it means there should be plenty of room to improve.

Thanks! I couldn't find a better pic on AR on aerobars yet, so posted like a front view at beginning of the thread. This was also a race where she approached 23mph riding along most of time. Thanks again!

Honestly, race pictures usually aren't great for comparisons, since the angles are often different from one picture to the next. If you can, posting a picture of her on the Trek on a trainer, then a picture of her on the Felt on that same trainer would be the best way to compare the two bike fits via pictures. Of course, that opens things up to the "bike fit by committee" that we all know is sooo effective...

Hard to judge for sure by the different angles, but based on that front view the AR position looks better to my eye. For example, if you compare where her elbow is relative to her knee, on the AR it is much lower. On the AR, she is essentially doing a mini-mantis, with her elbows a bit below her hands. On the Trek, it is the other way around, with her hands below her elbows. That shrug is probably also contributing to getting her head a bit more out of the wind. On the Trek position it is very exposed and non-aero.

When you said that her fit was based on her road fit, did the fitter at least try to replicate the aerobar position? It sure doesn't look like it to me.

Note that position is really king in aerodynamics. A good position on a road bike with clip-ons is better than a bad position on a TT bike. The bike itself is really not that much drag. Usually a TT bike should let you get into a better position, but it isn't automatic.

ETA: The other position key I look for when I look at my own position is where is the chin. On the AR, her chin looks almost level with her hip bone. On the Trek, it looks a good 4-6 inches above. Again hard to be 100% sure from the very different angles of the pictures.

Whatever came of her fit and speeds? Is she faster on the TT now or did she stick with the Felt Road w/clip-ons?Does she still have the SC?

Hey OP,
Just responding to recommendations for a bike fitter in the area. I live in DC area and was looking for someone to fit me for my new tri bike. Went on Slowtwitch and searched for F.I.S.T. certified bike fitters in my area and initially found out about Race Pace bicycles in Columbia. Multiple calls and emails back and forth to them over several months last summer and they weren’t really responsive (slow returning calls and emails, difficult to get a hold of anyone who would commit to scheduling a time to get fitted... granted it was during the pandemic and they weren’t sure when they were able to allow people in the store for in-person fitting so I gave up). Finally met with Chris Richardson at Bike Dr. Waldorf (https://www.bikedoctorwaldorf.com/...or-waldorf-pg370.htm ). Extremely professional and timely service. Chris spent 3hrs in total with me, asked about prior medical conditions, types of events I am competing in, my current fitness level & FTP as well as competitiveness/goals etc, took measurements and video of me on my old bike fit, showing me videos of my position along with leg, knee, hip angles and recommendations for improving my positioning on my new bike. Looked at my seat position and made recommendations for seat positioning and seat type based on heat map of pressure of where I sit. Put me on a fancy machine that electronically adjusted different angles to see which aero bar drop & angle felt the most comfortable and was the most aero etc. This is all to say that I was impressed! He knows what he’s talking about. Took into account my specific needs, goals and physical limitations. Their store is also a Trek, Felt and I believe Cervelo outfitter so are very comfortable adjusting/ordering parts for these bikes. He mentioned he is planning on opening up a bike fitting specific center sometime this month (Jan 2021) that will be closer to the DC area. I ended up ordering a Project One SpeedConcept through him and should be getting it in in the next couple of weeks. Check him out if you’re still looking for someone for your daughter. I HIGHLY recommend him. Well worth the time and money. Best of luck.
F.I.S.T. Certified fitters in the mid-Atlantic area from SlowTwitch forum: https://www.slowtwitch.com/...ionlist.php?region=2