You most probably know that already, but I reiterate just to make a point:

You don't get better when you exercise. When you exercise, you break your body. You get better when you recover in between.
So if you don't have enough recovery than what you're doing is technically not 'IM training', is 'IM slowly destroying your body' something.

The solution, at least what I found for myself: train not for IM, train for life. If you have more 'family workouts' during this cycle, do 'family workouts', not 'bike workouts'. At the end if you're KQ broke and/or divorced, you might not have $1K to pay for the entrance :)

Yeah, I'm feeling that way. Lately I've noticed that it takes me longer to warm up and get into my workouts. Weird thing is that once I am warmed up I feel really strong, it just takes longer to get there. I don't know about you, but my bike volume has jumped in the last month as the weather has improved and my race gets closer, and I think the fatigue is probably a direct result of that. Am I right in thinking you are a teacher? Because this time of year is also where the teacher batteries start wearing down a little - I have loads of colleagues whining about being tired and they don't even train! Some of them don't even have young kids, so I'm not sure why they are so tired. Hang in there Nate and maybe just give yourself an easier week to see if you start to bounce back again. Hope you feel better.

Haha - spot on with the teacher identity! I do have an easier next ten days with a 70.3 on June 2nd, so hopefully I'll feel good heading into that race. IM is four weeks after the 70.3. I have actually only done two outdoor rides all year, but did get in 11 1/2 hours of biking last week, so the fatigue is there.

It would be so much easier if I had more of a regular 9-5 job, but I need to be done with workouts by 6:30 each morning to get the kids ready (myself too), and out the door by 7:15. Those 45 minutes are a mad dash!

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023

 

Think of those 45 minutes as transition training - if you can get little kids ready for school quickly then changing out of a wetsuit is a piece of cake. Funny that we're on the same schedule - I race 70.3 on June 2nd, but I have a little longer from then until IM (July 28th). I'm also looking at the next ten days as a recovery block because it is the first taper of the season - if you haven't tapered before now, maybe that is another reason you are feeling fatigued as you might have just been building steadily for the last few months without a really easy week in there. I find it hard to put in an easy week unless I have the carrot of a race dangling in front of me - triathlon training is my sanity and helps me to stay calm at home and at work when the shit hits the fan (which can be quite literally as I have 8 kids, including a 3 year old, a 1 year old and a new baby; so there's plenty of shit everywhere, not just on the fan).

Just reduce your training volume and turn it into sleep volume. Than change some of bike and run workouts to gym strength training. In any time of the year. You will be much better.
You have enougth endurance now, need more recovery, lean muscle mass, and real testosterone.

There is no need to do repeat 10 times your 5 hour bike, in the age of 40. two or three times will be ok. But not more

This is kinda interesting because I too am a teacher. Get up at 4am every week day to get training in before having to be at work at 7am. On weekends, I am up at 3:xxam to get training in before family commitments with the kid. Training for IM LP and I was just telling my wife last and this week that I'm just tired. Blah. I didn't even attribute it to the fact that the year is running down but that could be something for sure!

IM CT 70.3?

Let's make an experiment! I'm racing it as well and in your AG. Judging from your blog, you're significantly faster than me. But I'm pretty happy right now with my sleep, rest and stress level. Let's see who drops whom? :)

I made a big jump in results when I started training more. I was completely exhausted pretty much all the time, but when raceday came I was ready to go.

When I had my best races, 4 to 10 weeks out I was like you just thinking “Man I’m tired”.

I never took a full recovery week but I would back off a Monday through Friday and wouldn’t necessarily feel a ton better, but could get all the work in.

So answer your question, don’t expect to feel too good.

There is no Jonathan Vaughters interview where he was talking about training with a spaniel named javier Pascual Llorente who told him to never pay attention to how your legs feel. Basically if you feel like crap but you’re still doing the workouts there’s something to be said for not over-analyzing how you feel.

One revelation when I first started training with a power meter was that some days I would feel fantastic and other days I would feel pretty crappy with very much the same power and heart rate.

There’s a lot more fear of overtraining than actual overtraining amongst people who are actually following a program. And you don’t get slower when you’re 40 because you’re getting older you get slower because you train less.

In summary if somebody wants to feel good and fit some high intensity training and some resistance training 45 minutes five times a week is a lot more effective than Ironman training. To be able run the second half of an Ironman marathon fast it just takes a lot of training that’s going to leave you feeling blah.

Excuse typos as this was from my phone and I’m not fact checking or spellchecking until January 2021.

Nate, this a common and might even say chronic concern with a lot of LD triathletes trying to do everything. One of the best things you can do is shorten your training blocks to insert easy (VERY! easy days) that allow you to get extra sleep and generally feel better for the next block of sessions, for your family and job / life.

For example make 14-17 day training blocks 12 days and take 2 VERY easy days (i.e 1500 swim day 1, 30min ez spin day 2 OR take one of the days off you prefer). Quite frankly you don;t need to OR want to feel like that for extended periods. When I find the right progression and ration with my athletes we are producing better training, better quality of life AND better results over the short and long term. My "Masters" AG athletes will do no more than 14 day blocks without 2-3 very easy to easy days. Shorter blocks for my 65+ / slightly longer for my younger athletes

BTW <6 hours sleep is counter productive to everything you are trying to do.

Rest up & Good Luck!

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-------------------------
Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

But I really wanted to believe in Javier the spaniel

You just explained your problem.
Age.
Not enough rest and recovery.

I have had to adjust now that I'm 42. Still setting PR's, but on more sleep and being more creative with my workouts.
I'm real about what days I need to sleep more than get the bonus weekly workout in.
I manage my long run during the week to allow sleeping in at least one day on the weekend.
I also pay attention to how I'm eating and hydration during the day. It was lip service before, but it makes a big difference now.

I need min 8 hours each night, and sometimes 9 after a long run or bike day. I cannot run myself into the ground like I did before and still be awake all day.

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Ryan
http://www.SetThePaceTriathlon.com
http://www.TriathlonTrainingDaddy.com
I got plans - https://www.trainingpeaks.com/...dotcom#trainingplans

What’s the appeal to IM training when your work/life/family restricts you to these demands?

Are you racing IM as intense goals/times or just having a good time? Just hope your goals match what your actually doing to yourself me.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

8 kids!!! Wow! I guess i should stop complaining about 4...

Sounds like you are doing Victoria and Whistler...... I’m on the same plan!

Recovery time and sleep seem to be the keys for me.

I guess I’m chasing a KQ and have been close a few times. Once I missed the last slot in my AG by 7 sec. Last year at IMLP I was 1st in my AG off the bike but had to drop out bc of a running injury that had popped up two weeks out from race day. I sometimes do question the craziness that I put myself through, but realize we only live once and it’s been a goal to Kona.

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023

Yes - CT 70.3 in about ten day. Had to use my road bike there last year due to shifter breaking on the tri bike a few days prior to the race. Hope to have a solid race and then put together another two weeks of solid volume before tapering for an IM on June 30th.

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023

Dave, maybe I’ll give that a go for the next training block after my IM at the end of June. Sounds sensible, and there really is no reason that most folks (including me) tend to stick to a seven day training schedule.

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023

No spellcheck no grammarcheck and no proofreading until jan 2021. Try it out for a while it’s liberating.

Fair enough putting on my "coaching" hat (yes I know you probaly dont want to hear this)...but- When I read a few weeks ago you got up at 2am to do workouts, my reaction was "WTF". I understand you are doing it the best of your ability, it just sounds like your not setting yourself up for the best race. Doesn't sound like your recovering enough and just digging yourself into the ground.



Ok off my coaching box.


Good luck with it. When I initially read your posts a few weeks ago about your training schedule, I kinda cringed. You basically are now confirming my worries.

But you gotta do what you gotta do.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Yeah - I definitely understand it's far from ideal. Not quite 2 am - 2:30 has been the earliest alarm set, but getting less than 6 hours of sleep probably isn't helping out. At this point the fitness is pretty good. Maybe it's not worth it over the next 6 or so weeks leading into my IM to cram in a few extra hours on those long rides. I generally do 3-4 hour rides at 75-80% AP and have yet to do any 5+ hour rides. I had planned on one ride of five hours, but maybe that's not really needed and the extra sleep would be a better option.

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023

This is me too - tired all the time. Week 18 of 24 before Roth, so almost there. Workouts have been generally good and I'm doing more volume than my previous 2 IMs.

I think my issue is sleep-related - just can't get a good night's sleep. I drop off ok around 10:30pm, but will invariably wake between 1am and 3am. Sometimes I get back to sleep, other times I will drop off about 4am before the alarm at 6am sharp.

Keep at it.

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My race site: https://racesandplaces.wixsite.com/racesandplaces

I just turned 44. Top priority for me in any given week is to average 8 hours sleep, or very close to it. The training gets scheduled around that, and if something has to get cut short it's the training not the sleep. For me that's the recipe to being healthy in both mind and body.

I certainly don't get 8 hours every night, there are days when I get up at 4am to train after 6 hours sleep or less. But I do so knowing that I can make it up with a power nap or 9-10 hour sleep the next day. Averaging 7 hours/week is ok for a week or 2 and then things start to go downhill. When average drops below 7 things start going downhill fairly quickly.

Good luck! You already know the course and have everything ready.
Just for my curiosity: if you want to maximize your chances for KQ, why don't select one of the multiple IMs around September? This way you have the whole summer to train.

Me too. My dog licks her butt - I liked the idea of a more worldly pup.

My wife and I are both teachers, so the summer is our fun, somewhat unstructured time, when we can travel and have fun with our kids. If I do happen to KQ I'd bring the volume back up at the end of July for around ten weeks. It's also a lot harder to travel to an IM during the school year, as it would require a few days off from school for both of us as well as the kids, and taking time off at the start of the year as a teacher is hard.

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023

This made my day - thanks! I'm not particularly Spaniel oriented but if I ever acquire one there's no doubt about the name.

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"They know f_ck-all over at Slowtwitch"
- Lionel Sanders

right there with the both of y'all. Maybe us teachers need a strava group?

Did IMTexas in the midst of high school track season and state testing season.

It's the time of the year in this career where all teachers are feeling tired and us IM teachers even more.

FYI you’re now a case study on the latest purple patch podcast. Good advice given

The backbone of my training is Matt Dixon's Fast-Track Triathlete book - funny, huh! I'll try to have a listen to the podcast.

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023

FWIW I do much more quality work and volume now since I got a coach but I keep a very close eye to my oura ring to see how recovered/ready it says I am and of course see how I feel.

I had a lot of sleep problems earlier on in the season and readjusted training hours to avoid swimming at 530am so that I can sleep more. I know not everybody can do this but this has been a massive game changer for me. A massive focus on recovery and how my body feels.

And much more training on RPE too.

Didn't go through every single post, but try taking BCAA.
You can take sleeping pills and get some good long sleep as well.
Also do epsom salt, beet juice, stretching and foam rolls
At least, they work for me.

Getting up at 3 on Sa is crazy. I used to do this too (well, at 5), also because of feeling guilty towards the family.

So I changed this.

I fit in my long ride now on Tuesday. After work. In winter in the dark. I do not go home first, but start straight away at work lets say at 16:00. Riding for 4 hours leaves my family only waiting for me until 20:00. And I have all if the fu***** weekend free for regeneration and the family.

I had a listen to that - guess my new name is Bill! Got a decent result today at 70.3 CT - 3rd in AG and 15th OA. Plan to take a few days super easy, then try to get in a 10-12 day block of solid training before easing up before the IM in a month's time.

I'm planning on contacting Matt Dixon to see if indeed I was the basis of the latest podcast.

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023

I was listening to some back-issues of the PPF podcast and was going to PM you to tell you you should give it a listen. I'm pretty certain you were the basis of his podcast. I mean, every single detail about you matches up. Some good advice given indeed. Honestly, I am kind of surprised to hear you say your training methods are based off his book, as my first thought when reading your initial post was.... "man, this guy is going to bury himself and really ought to read Matt's book."

You're getting better results than me, so far be it from me to tell you how to train. But as a distance observer sounds to me like you need to make some changes (perhaps next season unless Matt agrees to work with you for a couple months when you reach out to him?) or you're eventually going to burnout which would be too bad because you sound like a very talented and dedicated athlete.

I think Nate's method will work from time to time but you keep doing this year after year then you'll "crack", "burnout", or get sick. So you have to ask yourself if this is a lifelong hobby or just gunning for the Kona slot. But I guarantee each year after 40 will get harder and harder to be able to pull this off.

It might "work" short term, but I think there are two questions we can't answer.
1) Is it optimal? Is there another way OP could be training that would actually achieve better results because it's giving his body more time to recover/adapt to the stress he's throwing at it.
2) What are the hidden costs of this approach. OP might think he's doing him family a favor by waking up at 2am to cram in long rides, but what's the point if the time he's with his family his just a zombie? Perhaps his family would prefer to let OP finish his workouts a bit later (at say, noon instead of 9am) but be his best self and more present when he's around.

I tried the whole 4am workout thing at the start of this season shortly after becoming a new dad, so I could do all my training while the family was asleep, etc. My wife was pretty honest with me and told me that it was really a false compromise and I was really deluding myself into thinking it was optimal for the people I cared about. She'd rather deal with the baby alone for a couple hours than have a zombie shuffling through the weekend.

I am 40 and the answer is sleep.

Went through an exhausting year last year -- even though i goto bed at 9pm and wake at 5am, i kept waking throughout the night, often up at 3am and not sleeping more, and averaging 6hrs for a while -- it wrecked me.

The "normal" fatigue i had that I thought was ironman training was lacking sleep.

When i got that in order, ensured i got 8 hours again, a WORLD of difference.

At the very least, i would shuffle something around to get a couple 8 hour sleeps in a row

good luck

I've had serious sleep problems since age 33 despite really good sleep habits, sleep testing, CPAP machine, etc. For me, limited QUALITY sleep is THE major limiter to my triathlon training (and thus performance.)

This doesn't seem unique to me though, it does seem that a (vast?) majority of people 40+ yrs in age suffer real sleep quality issues, whether through bad habits, overcommitments, or health reasons. You can put up a lot of hours of training even while sleepy, but you can't put up those real performance-changing hi-end hard efforts that will really take you to the next level.

OP here - the above is a phrase that Matt used in his podcast, but it isn't what I said, and I think some folks have misconstrued what I meant in my original post. I do feel tired at some points in the day, but in no way would I describe it as a zombie. I'm very engaged with my kids, take them to swimming, karate, t-ball, shopping, etc, but compared to the 'off season,' when I'm training 6-8 hours less a week, I do feel more tired. Over the course of the week, I average a bit over seven hours of sleep, and I've gotten 8+ hours the past two nights. Would I like to sleep more? Absolutely! I guess it's hard in my position to find the optimal training/sleep ratio that leads to my best performance. If I got another hour of sleep each night that would probably equal 5-6 less training hours over the course of the week. Would I perform better with more sleep and less training? Maybe, but without some data to crunch it would be hard to find the perfect combination.

With my A race of the season in just over three weeks, I am trying to prioritize sleep as much as possible. I've gotten 'permission' from my wife to finish workouts a couple hours later next Saturday to bank a bit more sleep. I had a decent result this past weekend at CT 70.3 on a very minimal taper, so I feel like the training is working. I definitely plan to take a nice break post IM to let the body feel completely recovered before starting training up again for future races.

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023

Well that’s great to hear. Sorry to use the Zombie word — guess I heard it on the podcast and assumed you said it yourself.

Anyhow, sounds like you crushed the 70.3 and your spouse is on the same page, so clearly whatever you’re doing is working.

Good luck in the Ironman mate. Hope you bag that KQ and can celebrate with some rest. Come back and let us know how it goes.

Cheers.

I spent a good couple of years building a decent base to be able to get some decent IM times. After we had our second child I thought I could take the same approach to a marathon but being one sport, would be able to fit in the magic balance between family, work and fitness.

Fast forward to week 18 of a 24week marathon build I thought I was doing it all by cutting corners on sleep (never more than 6hrs). And why wouldn’t I, everything was humming along. I was working hard but a flexible workplace that allowed me to do the extra hours when it suited me. I was active and present for the family and made sure I got training done at hours that suited them. I was consistently hitting good run volume and I’d never run so fast so easily. I’m tired but I’m always tired when I train hard.

I woke up with a cold on the Monday and with pneumonia by the Friday. I couldn’t walk the 10 meters to the toilet without stopping for a rest. When raceday came around I was only just able to manage the 1.5 km morning walk to the train station. I think the body was fully recovered after 6 months.

This might be an extreme example of hubris and stupidity. There’s a good chance you will get to your target race in great shape but it’s a very fine line to walk. Good luck!