Yeah, I like gomez but who did he get that silver to? There can only be one GOAT and right now that is very, very much up to debate and it seems be between Jan and Ali for now and if Ali takes Kona, then he's it.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

It's definitely up for debate. Jan is so far behind those guys in short course, that if either one of AB or JG win Kona it's over. Barring that (and it's entirely likely neither one ever does) it's still a debate between the three. Some people are going to say AB has the wins that matter most, others will counter with Javi's consistency and ability to dominate across all distances + xterra. For my money, if everyone's career stopped now, I'm going with Javi as the GOAT.

Gomez is a total badass. And from all accounts, seems to be a very cool person to boot.

AB has done nothing so far in 2 seasons in long distance. Two olimpic golds, yes, but who has dominated the most competitive field for years? How many ITU seasons has dominated AB?

That is not the GOAT in my opinion.

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Sr. Salitre

How many times have Gomez and A Brownlee raced each other over a 70.3? What was the result?
I would say Frodo has to be the best of the modern era. 2x Kona, 2x70.3 worlds and the Olympics, they are the pinnacle of each event. He also has the fastest time over a long course race, whatever that is worth.

I can't rate winning the ITU series as highly as many here do, when so many top athletes miss most of the season through choice. I mean Mola is a great athlete, and he is the 3x ITU world champion. He isn't exactly in the discussion as one of the best of all time though, nor will he be if he wins this season and next too.

Are we talking just short course here? (In which case why are people name dropping Frodo into the conversation?)

If not why is Mark Allan not getting mentioned? Or even Dave Scott?

I agree though, Javi is most definitely in any conversation for a GOAT and what he did in Bermuda is simply staggering.

I believe the nay sayers will always throw a massive question mark over him though when it comes to Ironman.

Question....

If you had to bet your house on either Gomez winning Tokyo next year, or Kona what would it be???

Frodeno is the GOAT.

Olympic Champion
Multiple Ironman Champion
Multiple 70.3 Champion

Its not about who's hot right now and who isn't its about results. Gomez is good, hes consistent, he's versatile but he isn't the GOAT. Not an olympic champion, not a kona champion.

2nd Place would be Mark Allen.

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Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

I don't think he'd win either... but i'd pick Tokyo.

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Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

x2

I'm gob smacked anyone could rate Frodo above Mark Allan.

Quite frankly anyone rating Frodo as the GOAT might need to watch Gomez and the Brownlees finish over a minute on him regularly in ITU and watch how the last two Kona's have gone.

If Frodo won another couple of Kona's and a 70.3 Worlds I think he'd be in the convo with Mark Allan and Dave Scott.

Super weak field. But you can only beat who turns up.

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Agree. Mark Allen is above Frodo.

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Agreed... Jan's gold was a stroke of luck IMO on the right day. He was hardly a force in ITU but is definitely more dominant at half/full distances. I think many that put him as GOAT have only seen him race the Iron and half iron distances.

I'm with you as Gomez based on consistency and wins at various distances... AB is a close second and Jan is definitely a top guy at the half/full distance but not across the sport including ITU.

I cannot say if pizza or ice cream or chocolate is more delicous.

And I can also not say if Frodeno, Ali or Gomez is the GOAT. All three of them are incredible athletes and well rounded in the swim, bike and run. Alistair can turn up really fit when it matters most and he also changed the dynamics of short course racing. Gomez is very consistent and can race at a high level all year for many years. Frodeno obviously has his strength in long course and brought it to another level but he could still win an Olympic gold.

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10k - 30:48 / half - 1:06:40

Also agree. There was no Olympics when Mark was racing, but he won EVERYTHING, from Oly WC, Ironman, Nice how many times in a row?, Powerman......even against the best duathletes in the world, he crushed them all. GOAT for sure, but many don't go back far enough in the sport to see such greatness.

While Mark was the greatest, he raced at a time with less competition. He did not have Frodeno,Brownlee’s and a Gomez to compete against. I am just saying it was easier to win every race.
Greatest of All Time? Mark was at his time, well, after Dave taught him IM pacing 😜. Remember Mark only beat Dave once in Kona compared to Dave’s 5 victories over Mark.
Gomez is great, but winning the ITU LD World’s against a weak field added nothing to his legacy.
I would give Frodeno my GOAT vote as of today, but I am sure there will be better.

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Team Zoot So Cal

Wow these guys use GOAT way too loosely. It's really not a phrase designed to be used on an everyday basis and definitely not meant for those who are in the middle of their careers.

Both of these points are not valid. Frodeno has accomplished more than Gomez and Brownlee at every discipline. Brownlee is amazing, one of the best at ITU... but not triathlon. Also, Frodeno won the Olympics and Gomez has not. Its about winning the biggest races. Gomez is also amazing but hasn't won kona or the olympics. Discrediting the fact that one man has won an olympic, kona, 70.3 gold is pretty insane...

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Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

Hard to compare this which is why i hate the discussion of triathlon GOATS from different areas, thats why I said Allen is 2nd because he was a complete machine at every discipline and unfortunately the olympics were not in his time as an athlete. Him and Frodo are two of the best.

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Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

Quite frankly anyone rating Frodo as the GOAT might need to watch Gomez and the Brownlees finish over a minute on him regularly in ITU and watch how the last two Kona's have gone. //

Maybe they were watching the "latest" 70.3 world championship, the one where he beat the best Brownlee and Gomez, on the run too. It was of course not a legit 1;06. but to keep it in perspective, he did beat the two best runners in the sport on the biggest day, so maybe a 1;07 high? I think you too easily write off an olympic gold medal winner, multiple Kona champion, and 70.3 champion. I think he does need one or two more races in this category to surpass Mark, unless Gomez of course can figure out how to get that gold medal, or a Kona championship. This WC he just won was a chip shot for closest to the hole, not surprised he crushed everyone, that was there...Most big 70.3's are harder to win than the ITU LD WC..

It's a pity Aliaster wasn't run fit for that 70.3, it would have been an even better win for Frodo!

But not as hard as to win an ITU WTS WC. Gomez has won multiple whereas Frodo has never even come close. I grant that Gomez only has a Silver medal, so that is a slight knock on his CV.

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But not as hard as to win an ITU WTS WC//

Ya, but that is a whole year of series racing now, is it not? A guy could never get better than 3rd and possibly win the WC? I mean if that was such an important title, why is Mola not even in this conversation? And to just be up front here, I'm arguing points for Frodo just because they are there, and folks seem to want to ignore them for some reason. I actually like Gomez for all time greatest(on deck), but he and Frodo just need to fill in one or two gaps in their results resume to take it over from the Grip..Gomez is certainly turning out to be the most resilient racer in all the disciplines. Hope he can go a few more years like Mark did, late 30's for a full blown career..


Speaking of which, what are we to think about Crowie and Cameron still tearing it up at 46!! Certainly not what they used to be, but Potts and a few others are stretching out those male pro careers like no others have done since the beginning of getting paid. Couple women have made the stretch, but not with this much success against the current crop of competitors.

In theory this is a possibility, but in practice, with the crop of ITU men on the scene now NOW WAY.

In theory this is a possibility, but in practice, with the crop of ITU men on the scene now NOW WAY.
Ok, paint me confused. From what I have seen, there is no one guy that is dominating ITU, not even two guys like in the Killer B days.So yes, when they were around, you would have to win a bunch of races to beat Allistar, there was no reward for just consistency. But today, aren't there like 5 to 8 guys that can win any given race? And if that is the case, isn't that a lot easier for a guy who got 3rd in every single race to be fighting for the overall win? What am I missing? If no one guy is going to win 6 races, then it just goes that a lot of other places are going to count towards the championship.

There probably is a crop capable, but they haven't. Mola is the only athlete to have won more than 2 races in a season for a while now I think.

That is comical. Have you ever heard of Mark Allen, Dave Scott, Scott Tinley, Mike Pigg, Scott Molina, and a few others. Frankly, the competition was crazy compared to the base numbers now days. They also raced so often and at the peak level, as no one does any more.

Not saying the Gomez, Frodo, Ali groups isn't good, perhaps great, but realistically there is far less competition at the pointy end now once you get beyond those 3. It a long way back to the next consistent group that could even rival the consistent results of the previous group.

could also be because these 3 really are the GOATS so no one is close and in the past everyone was more average

Depends on your definition, but all of the old timers I mentioned were definitely NOT average. As I said it was a much smaller base as far as numbers, but the quality far exceeded what is at the top level now. I think overall that is also reflected in the far slower average finish time of Ironman finishers now compared to years ago. Overall the numbers have grown, but I'm not sure the top level has grown accordingly. Most races you follow now do not having the top athletes going head to head virtually every week as in the past, and now if any of those 3 show, the distance to the also runs is fairly large.

Yes, I have been racing ‘81 and was in races against those old legends. They were great for those at the early days of the sport.
Athletes in all sports get better over the years. Jerry West was a super star in the ‘60’s, but not a Michael Jordan or LeBron.
Yes, Allen was great, amount the greatest, but not close to Frodeno’s talent.

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Team Zoot So Cal

Your opinion. Frankly looking at their best times in Kona, I have to say with the advances in tech, Frodo's times are not indicative of the tech advances compared to Mark's. It's all an opinion anyway, but if one were to determine GOAT based on which one was the prohibit favorite whenever he showed up, Mark has to be on top. Duathlon, Oly distance, Nice distance, Ironman......when he showed he usually dominated. I love Frodo and think he's far and away the best "dependable" one nowadays, but not usually a "lock". Doesn't really matter anyway......kind of like the Jim Brown, Barry Sanders, Walter Payton, Eric Dickinson, Herschel Walker, Adrain Peterson, on and on debate.....

Can't compare periods. Mark was absolutely great, the best of his era. But specialisation had not yet happened in triathlon. What he did back then is multiple times harder to do nowadays. The level of ITU racing has gone up heaps. Look at the run times (and swim). A guy who was at the top of the world in ITU (Simon Lessing) and looked unbeatable in the 90's just found out how the evolution of the sport was quick in 2000 Sydney where (after dominating the run in the 90's) he couldn't keep up with the Whitfields of the new world.

You are missing everything. Mola has dominated the last years. No way you could win the title against a guy with 5 out of 5 wins with just thirds.

Brownlee was barely run fit (injuries again) and Gomez wasn't on his game pulling up with side stiches @ the close of the race. Otherwise I suspect the race would have gone much like 2014 where Gomez dropped Frodeno and won the 70.3 WC or a run fit AB would have run on down the road @ 1:05 on that short course.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... Gomez and AB are just on another level from other current triathletes up to the 70.3 distance.

You are missing everything. Mola has dominated the last years. No way you could win the title against a guy with 5 out of 5 wins with just thirds. /

I was talking about the current year and times. How's Mola doing?? Anyone looking like they are going to win 5 races?

How's Mola doing?

Pretty well actually. He's already got 1 W. They have Yoko, Hamburg, Edmonton and Montreal all events he's the likely clear favorite and many are sprint distances which favor him. I'm guessing this year at Lusane he'll come int the GF "only needing 8th or better place to win title".


Will he win 5, I doubt it, but he's going to score really really well at almost all those events. Bermuda result is far too much of an outlier result than the rest of the WTS and especially Tokyo in 2020. There's nothing really "hard" about many of the WTS courses.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

And I don't really believe that Bermuda being a "hard" course was the cause of his poor result, there would surely have been some other reason. He has raced many "hard" courses and if doesn't win or podium is always top 10. I am more inclined to think that there was some illness (maybe viral) issue going around his squad, some performed great, most as they usually do, but at least a couple way below par.

The reason was that the swim group he was at went off course and swam a significantly longer distance. They arrived 1 minute+ later to t1, so the race was essentially over for him.

Could any of those guys walk in for a 29.07 on a legit 10k off a hard bike? The Brownlee brothers reinvented short course Tri. None of the old guys would have been able to place top 10 in todays ITU.

I did notice this, but I also think that he didn't appear to have the strength in bike or run that he normally does. Probably a combination of little things were wrong.

Gomez is an amazing athlete but not the GOAT. You have have to win the big races for that. I think at the moment Jan has it. Olympics/Kona/70.3. Especially with that race in SA last year. However, up to 70.3 distance a fit AB win every time.

7,35 at Roth as well

The only time Jan had the chance to win the ITU world's, which he tried more times than anything else was, I believe 2010. He had to be 3rd at the grand final in Budapest to earn the title. He was 30 something. Javier won the title. Then in 2013, Javier won the race that mattered, out sprinting Jonathan Brownlee at home. Supposedly JB being the sprinter and JG the diesel. Plus I guess all the races he won to earn like 9 world titles including many that where single race titles also mattered. In addition his first ITU world was when it was still a single race title. Lastly, he missed a couple of years because he was banned by the Spanish federation from racing due to a heart condition known as bi cuspid heart valve. He almost quit and spent two years without training and fighting legally in his early twenties. This guy deserves much more credit than he is given here.

Gomez is a slightly better Simon Lessing. Legends but no Olympics and no Kona

This! I'd probably pick Gomez first right now if we had to draft athletes to compete in a variety of distances over the course of a season. Amazing athlete and consistency. You can't be GOAT when you focus on ITU for a decade and consistently finish behind AB, including in the biggest race. If Gomez wins a few Kona's, maybe. This may be controversial, but on wins alone you could probably make as strong of a case for Macca or Crowie before Gomez though. Agree that as of right now (according to this armchair quarterback) it's either Jan or Mark Allen.

newManUK wrote:

Gomez is an amazing athlete but not the GOAT. You have have to win the big races for that. I think at the moment Jan has it. Olympics/Kona/70.3. Especially with that race in SA last year. However, up to 70.3 distance a fit AB win every time.

Does the WTS head-to-head mean Ali has beaten Javier 20 of the 27 times they have raced (in WTS races)?

Both have been on the podium in 75% or more of their races which is really impressive

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Matt

Both have been on the podium in 75% or more of their races which is really impressive //

Both really impressive, yes. But Allistar has won over 60% of his ITU starts, while Gomez 25%. That is truly an impressive stat, one that may never be matched again.

 
From his wikipedia.....


" his career suffered a setback in 2000 when a routine medical test by the Consejo Superior de Deportes (CSD) revealed an "abnormal heart valve", leading to a six-year battle between Gómez and the Spanish sporting authorities regarding his right to compete internationally. He initially won this right in November 2003, but he was not selected for the 2004 Summer Olympics and in 2005 the CSD banned him from international and domestic competition until February 2006"



The table is interesting, but "both 2 olympic appearances" couldve been " 2 golds to one silver"

And that summary is skewed because it doesnt look at any long stuff which would turn the tables big time because AB is still starting in that department (after the silver 70.3 WC debut)

I was thinking that as well. The list of athletes who have won 60% of their races or events against the field is probably pretty small across all sports. Bekele is probably on the list. Maybe Geb or Kipchoge (though the latter wasn’t always winning on the track which would bring his win rate down). Not sure if any cyclist would be up there (since placing is kind of odd with all of the different as you’ve got stage races and one day races). I don’t follow swimming at all, but maybe Phelps?

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Matt

I don’t follow swimming at all, but maybe Phelps?


To compare apples to apples, it would have to be an individual sport, not cycling or other team sports. And Phelps probably has won way more than 60%, guess it depends on when you start and stop counting. But he would be batting over 90% I would say if you counted national, world, and olympic championships.

To be honest, that is 2015. JG wins have doubled since then.

However who would dare to claim this is the ITU track record of the goat https://www.triathlon.org/...lts/5692/jan_frodeno

The Brownlees and Gomez beat Frodo by over a minute in the Olympics with them all in there prime you could argue, Frodo was chased out of SC by the three of them, Frodo does have an Olympic gold but he won't go down as a SC great.

He only has two Kona wins, which puts him significantly down on wins on Dave Scott and Mark Allan, granted he's probably achieved the most at various distances, but this isn't enough to make him the GOAT in my opinion.

Was from June 2016, only "head to head" comparison I could find on the internets. I only count 3 JG WTS wins since then though. Am I missing something?
https://www.triathlon.org/...95/javier_gomez_noya

Agree with you to a certain degree about Jan. No one would ever claim he was even a top 10 all time ITU guy. But,...given his body and breadth of work WINNING big races and setting records along the way it's hard to ignore him. He won an Olympic gold. Gomez didn't. He won Kona twice, Gomez didn't. Etc.

Like I said, if you asked me to pick 1 guy for a season of racing distances between sprint to 140.6 I'd pick JG in a second. Just don't think you can be the GOAT when you've never won an Olympic gold or Kona.

Like I said, if you asked me to pick 1 guy for a season of racing distances between sprint to 140.6 I'd pick JG in a second. Just don't think you can be the GOAT when you've never won an Olympic gold or Kona.

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I've always thought that Gomez was the best all around triathlete we've ever seen. The depth of racing he can race and win is pretty incredible. But on the other hand I've always thought that AB (and with his Kona wins now Frodo), is more the best "one day racer". AB particular with respect to his career. He's always been injured since about 2013 and yet he's a double gold medal winner. He just wins, but he's also missing a lot of races that I think would "skew" those stats. AB seems to have only raced when he's on since about 2014 (beyond Rio test event).

So I think they are both the best at each "category" and I dont really want to say one is better than the other. I think it's just a fairly accurate assessment of the results.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Someone can correct me. But the ITU doesn't have a Long Distance Circuit, so the LD World Championship is a one off race and isn't a real test for 70.3 athletes. Although it's a World Championship, it's not a real one per se. Outside of Bozzone I have no idea who the rest of this field is.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

In terms of this argument I think Gomez going back down to SC doesn't do him any favours, Gomez winning Kona would do much more for his legacy among Triathlon nerds than winning Tokyo I think.

Javi is the Phil Mickelson of Triathlon... (I realize that this argument is outdated, because Phil has since won a major)... The best to never win one of the majors... He's always there or therabouts, regardless of distance... He's been incredibly consistent and durable... the injuries that took him out were silly crash related things, not over training type injuries like the Brownlees have dealt with (Bad timing with the Rio run up obviously)...

Folks are being a bit harsh on Frodo's ITU career too... he was certainly not on an AB/JG level, but it's not like he was a schlub... And his olympic win was legit, that was a hell of a race for sure, one of the more epic finishes (obviously save for the Norden/Spirig photo finish for gold)...

Great summary and I agree. AB is legendary when it comes to one day events that he targeted. There is no one quite like him. JG has be extraordinary for long time over a variety of distances and his performances in season long events is unparalleled. His versatility is also one for the ages in winning the ITU WC, 70.3 WC and XTERRA WC are all very different race formats. Wherever he races, it is exciting!

Jack

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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
Sponsors: SciCon | | Every Man Jack

What? The guy with more world championships never won a major? What is a major for you?

On that front it's a pity that Simon Whitfield didn't have a proper go at 70.3. He was another athlete that targeted individual races very well. However, he, I guess, he more of a national hero in Canada then triathlete so financially didn't need to carry on.

x2
Same thing with most sports. take tennis for example, just watch thoose three top ones. Federer, Nadal and Djokovic are best ever by far and also during the best period of tennis.

Harder for a guy like Gomez who had won Olympics if there wasnt any Brownlee. Triathlon is still evolving so the competition has been an upgrade in general.

i think something very telling about gomez is the following thought experiment:

if he showed up at the start line of a race, would he be considered a threat to win?

the answer for javi is yes, at every distance from sprint to IM, on-road and off. that's pretty shocking, and in the history of tri it's a vanishingly small number of people we can say that about. (greg welch comes to mind.) if frodo showed up at an ITU race today, for instance, people wouldn't expect much from him. similarly, mario mola would be a curiosity at IM, but nobody would be counting on him to win.

javi, on the other hand, is generally respected as a legitimate threat for a podium (if not a win) at basically every start line he toes, including kona, the olympics, xterra, and world half champs against an epic field.

he's the real deal.

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

i totally agree with you. Gomez and maybe Brownlee are a threat in every race they enter.
Frodo may do better than what people expect but lower expections for sure

LOL! did you even watch south africa world champs last year?

again, the point isn't that frodo won in south africa.

it's that if there was a super-sprint tomorrow, or an IM, or a half, or an olympic, or an xterra, javi would be considered a serious podium threat in ALL of them. that's . . . incredible. frodo would be considered the podium threat in the full and the half, and sure, might surprise us at the olympic (but on long odds). for the rest, forget it.

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

I get your point that they are often on podium, and short course racing allows for more oppurtunities. But how can you compare if not head to head racing. Frodo might not podium at itu at 36 years old, but he won all key championship races at all distances. He did win more gold at short than the other 2 won kona podiums so far(they arent retiring yet i know)

What we do know is that in SA the 3 goats finally raced medium face to face... Frodo 36 already content enough with his career to retire but home town world champs...less quick short course training/racing in his legs, but why not?

1 long/medium specialist...
versus 1 short specialist....
versus 1 short/medium specialist....
.....exciting race but Frodo blew the doors off the competition

i very much agree with you that Frodo won worlds in south Africa.

otherwise I think we're talking past each other here.

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

I saw the results from that race (South African race), yes. I said the expectiations are higher on Brownlee and Gomez.. That has nothing to do with the outcome of the race.
Frodo did for a exceptional race. Impressive for sure

Aliaster wasn't run fit, if he was I think there would have been a different outcome.

[/quote]
C'mon, Gomez only raced Kona 1x, how can you be fair in your statement? "He won Kona twice, Gomez didn't..." Did you even read what you wrote? To judge JG when he just arrived on the ultra scene is premature. We have no idea what he will do these next few years with more experience. I don't think he will win a Kona ever, myself...IMO, but possibly top 3.

Also, to compare Dave & Mark...they never had the Olympics so we won't know. Mark had a 21 win streak /2 season stretch undefeated in his career from what I recall. Ended by Mike Pigg. Has anyone currently active, including Mola, done that in short course? Alistar? Frodo? I really don't think so. Nobody active will win 6 Ironman races. Not even Lange. They are either too old or not dominating regularly with the deep fields. The front pack is much closer than what most think in Kona. Let's see Lange try to string 4 more of these together...

Ali Brownlee for me. Put everyone on the start line, in any format (draft/non draft) & at their absolute best, and he wins. His London Olympics race was, to me, as close to perfect as you can get.

I would agree, if you put any Triathlete in there prime on there best day next to a fully fit Ali Brownlee 70.3 or below distance he beats them probably 9/10

I don't think this makes him the GOAT though.

Yes, plus he has 5 ITU world titles and frodeno none. And he certainly tried more than once...

No, his achievements do though

C'mon, Gomez only raced Kona 1x, how can you be fair in your statement? "He won Kona twice, Gomez didn't..." Did you even read what you wrote? To judge JG when he just arrived on the ultra scene is premature. We have no idea what he will do these next few years with more experience. I don't think he will win a Kona ever, myself...IMO, but possibly top 3.

Also, to compare Dave & Mark...they n[/quote]
yes, and back to my point: when javi showed up at kona for the first time, he was taken seriously. reasonable, experienced observers of the sport thought he had at least a chance to win. and they would think the same if he showed up at a half, an olympic, a sprint, a du, a mixed-format, and an xterra. there are really not many triathletes who you can say that about, ever.

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

C'mon, Gomez only raced Kona 1x, how can you be fair in your statement? "He won Kona twice, Gomez didn't..." Did you even read what you wrote? To judge JG when he just arrived on the ultra scene is premature. We have no idea what he will do these next few years with more experience. I don't think he will win a Kona ever, myself...IMO, but possibly top 3.
.[/quote]
Curious what you object to in my statement? I didn't say that Gomez can't ultimately become the GOAT if he wins a few Kona's. Just that he hasn't yet. Thus,...not the GOAT.

I have watched a lot of tennis. Watched more or less everything from mid 80´s and 90´s. Pete is great but Federer, Nadal and Djokovic are in their own league. So dominate during such a long time and in the best period in tennis. They also have most GS´s.

Uh...the fact you said Frodo won Kona 2x & Gomez didn't.
If he only raced it 1x it is impossible to win it 2x.