I've found it doesn't matter at all what color I wear or that I have a blinking light. Some people give room, some do not, some yell things, some throw things, most are on their cell phones... I'm not saying what you saw wasn't bad decisions on any part, but it's interesting that this is never put in the reverse direction:

"A car was rear-ended today however the vehicle following the car was not at fault because the car they hit was dark in color."

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Blog | Strava

I saw a guy in the Wawa parking lot this morning getting out of a work truck wearing a 'safety' vest so filthy it was merely "green" not "hi-viz safety neon lime"

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

I saw a cyclist riding in the dark with no lights last night. Not a commuter but a roadie clearly riding for fitness. No lights on front or back. Not smart

"I saw a Black Flag sticker on a Cadillac"

Bonus points to anyone who knows that song/artist

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

I could not disagree more strongly and I can't understand how you reached that conclusion. It is absolutely easier to notice a rider with a bright blinking light and hi-viz/contrasting clothing. Even on a bright day a rider in dark clothes in a shaded area becomes nearly invisible from a distance. And riding at dawn/dusk without lights is suicidal.

It certainly is a drivers responsibility to pay attention but dead cyclists don't get to bitch about it.

The Ataris. Sneaky move not posting the original lyric.

Boys of Summer. what do I win?

I'm not commenting at all on whether it is easier to see someone or not. It clearly is easier to see someone wearing hi-vis and bright colors. What I'm commenting on it that it seems (to me) that no matter what I wear, drivers behave the same.

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Blog | Strava

Riding West in the afternoons is equally, if not more dangerous than this. Being safe out there means not only knowing WHERE to ride, but also WHEN to ride.

Yep, I like The Ataris version better


Like I said, you both get Bonus Points, that's all

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

I dress as a roadie pretty much everyday for my commute to work; I leave my computer at work and stuff the rest including lunch in my back pocket.

The color of bike probably doesn't have anything to do with visibility... I don't remember the color of a bike to be something I notice quickly when I am driving or riding.

IMHO, the dumb thing this cyclist (see, that word again) did was riding on a busy road where commuters use during commuting hours.

Of topic rant: Waze is effing with my cycling by diverting all the traffic to the smaller roads I normally ride because there are fewer cars. I hate and boycott that app when I drive.

Regardless, at the very least, being more visible gives drivers who would give you room a better opportunity and time to do so.

The Atari's covered Don Henley's song, but were too punk to leave the Deadhead reference in it.

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I'm closer to the feathered end of the spear than the point.

Ok, here's an even more obscure version, with double bonus points.

"I saw a Moosehead sticker on a Cadillac"

Had to google that




Thanks for the earworm, fucker

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

I could not agree more. There are times a year where I can't ride one of my favorite routes because the angle of the sun makes it so the sun is almost always in drivers eyes.

"A little voice inside of me said, don't look back, you can never look back."

Somewhere, I have 2nd generation soundboard copies of the early April '70 Fillmore East shows. They're probably way too brittle to play.

I would think anyone that grew up in the Detroit media market about that time would be familiar with it. It was huge locally.

Can't really fix stupid.

I currently prefer the more mournful version done a decade ago by The Hooters - https://vimeo.com/4534549

Yes, I see cyclists doing stuff I think is stupid. Other than no lights while riding in low visibility conditions, the main one probably is riding on a high traffic, 45+ speed limit road with narrow shoulders when there is a parallel side street or multiuse path nearby. Sometimes I want to pull over and let them know there is a safer option nearby.

I saw a guy driving a completely black car this morning. Hell, I've seen cars painted in camo patterns.

Real cyclists don’t ride a multi use path. On the other hand, is the OP the fashion police? Obviously, hi vis is great, but not the end all be all. I have a black bike, black helmet, black jacket,
black vest, black bibs, black arm warmers, knee warmers and shoe covers. I wear fluo colored jerseys and fluo yellow shoes. I use a tailight in broad daylight. At dusk or night lights front and back.

I see nothing wrong with this approach. The dark clothing is always considerably cheaper, and not everyone is riding around looking like a human highlighter or glow stick from head to toe.

Kind of defeats the object, doesn't it?

Thanks for the illumination.

I agree with you here. And ever since I was in an accident I've only purchased bright bike clothes. The bright clothes and lights help mitigate a bit. Not sure how much but if it saves my life is that too much?

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

A lack of lights was part of the OP critique, so "fashion police" is not relevant. Dress like a goth princess all you want as long as you have lights.

Not a reply strictly to you, but it applies...

This is a topic I feel pretty strongly about and I thank the OP for sharing. I believe as cyclists if we're out on the open road, there's no reason not to take basic measures to make yourself as visible as possible. Saying hi vis clothes are ugly, more expensive, or unnecessary since all cyclist-driver collisions are due to being on cellphones is just plain lazy if you ask me. Cars and drivers rule the road whether we like it or not. GCN recently shared some alarming results of a study of how drivers view cyclists. Summary: some don't even recognize cyclists as human beings. Not good.

I never leave the house without my blinking rear light AND wearing some form of bright color (not always hi vis jersey, but usually at a minimum bright socks, since feet are constantly moving and catch visual attention, and because #sockdoping!). And, I avoid busy roads/times of day at all times. All this lowers the probability of having an incident. Even if just a little bit. It will never will eliminate danger, but I think of them as marginal gains when it comes to being safe. And we all will take marginal gains when we can. It's very, very low hanging fruit.

I share the OP's sentiment strongly. That cyclist was damaging the relationship of drivers and cyclists by sending a message that he didn't give a crap about being seen or safely sharing the road. I think that showing drivers we care has a real impact on them accepting us as fellow road users, and as human beings. If a car slows down and waits for a safe time to pass me, I throw them a kind wave and thumbs up every single time. I think interactions like that go a long way toward improving the relationship between us and drivers.

To take no effort in wanting to be seen or otherwise showing drivers you don't care about the fact we share the road with them only further damages perceptions drivers have about cyclists. Which isn't good for anyone.

 kits high-viz... no thanks. Those oranges and yellows are terrible... maybe when I'm 70.

Maybe some socks, shoes or gloves but that's it. I have a white helmet and use bike lights...that should be more then enough.

Yep, that's very good

BTW: D'Wife & I recently saw 80s-era Philly band Smash Palace in Manayunk; David Uosikkinen is on drums for them now, as well as doing his own project: David Uosikkinen’s In The Pocket

http://songsinthepocket.org/

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

I'm not convinced bright clothing makes as much difference as contrasting colors (like black leg warmers and white shoes) + a blinky light.

Was this road unlit? If so that was an especially dim decision on his part.

I've seen articles about studies done on this, one piece cited as an example the way police vehicles are often painted in contrasting blocks to increase visibility (leaving aside sneaky "stealth"-type paintjobs). Can't seem to find the one I read before, although I did find this:
https://www.roadbikerider.com/...clist-visibility-d3/

After going through a brief phase of buying mostly dark/muted stuff, for road riding I now only use helmets and gloves in bright colours, and shoes in either white or fluo yellow. I also bought the most obnoxious rain jacket I could find - a bright green Altura with reflective silver elements all over it, and a red blinky light built into in the tail flap. Also have neoprene shoe covers with the same type of light in the heel.

Yeah I thought there was a study about that recently. If you have hi-viz socks and/or shoes since they are in motion they catch the motorists eye. That and a bright blinking taillight was more effective than wearing hi-viz kit without the light or socks/shoes.

You are missing a very important aspect...

The one that hits you is very likely to have not seen you. Some motorists are more courteous than others. Some are more distracted than others. Your obligation is to do everything in your power to be seen.

I saw an M-dot sticker on a Cadillac.
A little voice inside my head said,
"I wonder what his time was,
or if he only did a half."

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<The Dew Abides>

clearly we just need a 'get back whip' for all cyclist

Hello rruff and All,


rruff writes in part: The one that hits you is very likely to have not seen you.

(or after hitting you ..... 'say' they did not see you)


The following is evidence that humans driving a motor vehicle are not very reliable to share a lane with a humans on a bicycle.

Using DOT crash data to count the dead and injured ...... rules of the road work much better for motorists than cyclists .... few, if any motorists are killed in a crash with a human on a bicycle. Motorists usually get off with little penalty and have little skin in the game.

With regard to 'rules of the road' ..... humans on bicycles need to be of the same mindset as when Blanche Dubois states from 'Streetcar Named Desire':

"Whoever you are, I have always depended on the kindness of strangers." .... when considering other humans driving motor vehicles .... especially those driving up behind the humans on bicycles.


(Poor Blanche says this line to the doctor about to cart her off to the mental institution after she's been raped by Stanley. Blanche is dependent, yes...but on kindness? We don't think so.)


The following is from https://bikinginla.com/ a good source for biking info .... and keep in mind the distracted information below is self reported ... the acutal number of distracted drivers could be much higher.


https://www.prnewswire.com/...wheel-300823110.html

Excerpt:
[LOS ANGELES, April 2, 2019 /PRNewswire/ -- A new distracted driving survey from the Automobile Club of Southern California shows 10 percent of adult drivers say they always or frequently use their smartphone while driving, even though it is against the law. The new study also finds drivers who are significantly more likely to drive 'intexticated' are between 25 to 39 years old and/or those who send and receive more than 50 text messages per day on their smartphones.
The Auto Club survey, conducted in February with more than 400 Southern California drivers, also revealed:

• Nearly half (46 percent) of those who admit to driving 'intexticated' do so for navigation.
• Other popular reasons cited for using smartphones behind the wheel included searching for audio or music, believing that someone required a quick response, and feeling more productive.
• Ten percent of those surveyed say they have been involved in a crash in the last five years in which they believe distraction played a role.
• Drivers surveyed said they were most likely to drive while 'intexticated' when they were alone in the car.
• 46 percent admit to driving 'intexticated' at least once.

The survey is part of the Auto Club's "Don't Drive Intoxicated. Don't Drive Intexticated." initiative.]
What do you think?

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

I agree with most, get a light, a rear flasher and reflective clothing or straps on your ankles, or some reflective tape.
Get everything you can afford to be visible. Drivers may not be paying attention, especially early in the morning half asleep, on their phones, or just bad/rude drivers. It may be the vehicle drivers fault, but if you are busted up and can't ride, run, or earn money, you will regret not being more visible.
Runners included-
I saw an all black dressed ninja runner the other morning in the dark and wanted to stop and tell him he needed to wear something more visible.
I know they are there because I am use to seeing them running in the dark but other drivers probably are unaware.
Nobody is the perfect, polite driver, and everyone can make a mistake driving a vehicle to work in the morning. I appreciate it when someone makes them self easy to see, and I am impressed they are up that early working out. I find it damn hard to do.

Rob

What % do you think are lying?

I suspect most bicycle/auto crashes would fall into the following categories, in order of most frequent occurrence:

1) Motorist doesn't notice the cyclist in time to avoid hitting them.
2) Cyclist makes a stupid maneuver and causes the crash.
3) Motorist sees the cyclist but carelessly hits them accidentally.
4) Motorist sees the cyclist and hits them on purpose.

I'm not sure if 2 and 3 are in the right order, but I'm pretty certain that 1 and 4 are where they belong. And 1 is easily the majority.

On my club's regular, Thursday night running route, I have twice seen a man riding on a very busy street in the dark, wearing all dark clothing with no helmet and no lights.

Not normally much of a big deal (plenty of idiots out there) but in both cases there was a small child sitting on the guy's lap, on the bike. Cars ripping by, inches away.

Note that I'm not even talking about the same man. This is two completely different sets of people, just a couple of weeks apart.

The second time, I actually stopped, took off the running light I had clipped on and handed it to the guy asking him to be careful. I had this idea of at least shaming him into giving a damn about his kid but he was completely unfazed. Didn't even put it on. Rode off, deathwish and all.

Still pisses me off. I guess that's obvious

Oh, brother. Snowflakes gonna snowflake.

Funny enough, before all those afraid of their own shadow bought bikes, cyclists did not feel the need to cover their bike with Christmas lights and wrap themselves in hideous clothing.

I think you totally misread the original message. This is not about whose fault it is. This is about safety precautions every rider should take to heart for their own sake. In a car on bike accident it may not matter if you were right. At it may end deadly for you so safety measures are important.

I may have... however, I think you also missed my point. I personally do try to take precautions such as hi-vis and lights as a safety measure and think they are important. What I’ve noticed, though, is that drivers seem to behave the same way and that is often in a very distracted manner often related to phones. As others have pointed out, this doesn’t alleviate the responsibility of a cyclist to make every effort to be safe and be seen. Perhaps the point I was alluding to doesn’t belong in this thread.

All that being said, when a cyclist is hit, the overwhelming attitude seems to be that it was somehow always the cyclists fault. And often we sadly have no second opinion because of the severity. Did the driver not see the cyclist? Perhaps not... jersey color? Cell phone? Erratic maneuver? Maybe. But we’re probably hearing about it from the driver and relying on their assurance that they weren’t distracted.

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Blog | Strava

I wear mostly black (sometimes red socks!!!), or darker colors with a few exceptions. My bike is black. My trek helmet is full of reflective elements. Daytime lights will see that if they are looking. Hell, all my road gear is proper road gear with reflective elements.

I hate bright clothes as they attract bike grease like a magnet (as do work clothes fyi).

But my bike has reflective elements (logos), and i always run my rear garmin vectra radar/rear led. It tells me when someone is approaching, and the approximate closing rate. It is great, as many cars are so quiet that any speed or amount of wind makes a car a surprise until they pass. It blinks faster as a car gets close. If cars are approaching from the front and behind, i can opt to pull over (i will if it is a narrow road and large trucks).

I assume no one sees me at intersections.

And i live in the country and avoid busy times/roads. 6 cars in 1 hour is maybe average. The tip of not riding west in the late afternoon is a good one. I avoid riding roads at dusk/night/rainy days.

I rode at dusk without a light, because i misjudged time, and had no light. I rode home one night, with front light, partly in the dark... in the country with no street lights, on a cloudy night. i could not see a thing when a cars lights shone at me. They saw me fine. I was also a bit drunk and got three segment pr’s that night (before it was fully dark). Never again, effing stupid, and scary when you are blind.

Two words: record video.

It isn't perfect but it helps a lot when it comes to your word versus the driver's.

+1 on this.

So... you are a snowflake.. ?

So long as you are too cool to complain when a motorist hits you because you are riding into the sun with no attempt to be visible, then I'm cool with it.

Hello rruff and All,

I agree in general with your numbered comments.

Also there is a difference between seeing an object (like a cyclist) and perception of a cyclist ...

Eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable ... seeing is influenced by other factors

https://www.ncsc.org/...-Criminal-Cases.aspx

Flip to page 347 for Conclusions in the below study on distraction:

https://www.nhtsa.gov/...ction/100CarMain.pdf

rruff writes in part: What % do you think are lying?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...articles/PMC5639921/

It would be a presumptous wild ass guess on my part ..... so I do not know the answer .... but different studies indicate the truth is routinely 'stretched'.

Animals deceive too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/...Deception_in_animals

It looks like deception has evolved into human DNA too .... stealth aircraft, chaff to decieve missles, decoy warheads for ICBMs

Some humans even cut the course .....

Solutions are being proposed:

https://www.mercurynews.com/...hones-while-driving/

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

Just my 2 cents

A driver who will drive dangerously when they see you is not likely to be safer when they don't.
However, even if they don't give you much space or otherwise behave badly, virtually all drivers will act to avoid actually hitting you. If they see you. Also there are in fact drivers who treat cyclists with some respect. These are certainly hampered by you making yourself difficult to see..

Claiming that being seen or not makes no difference is nonsense.

Don't be such a turd.

Increasing visibility to avoid being killed in now way whatsoever makes one afraid of their shadow or a "snowflake". Your comment is uninformed, nonsensical, and purposefully offensive for the fun of being an asshole. Your comment has no redeeming qualities.

Amen, that's why I have life insurance, disability insurance, and legal insurance. Funny enough, before all those afraid of their own shadows got their own cars, drivers did not feel the need to add these mirror-like monkey ears to their steel steeds , and flash their rear end like Rudolph's nose every time they brake. Drives me mad! What are they gonna do next? Tell me I have to safety signs in my factory! You know what they say, "Better dead than safe"

I do think hi viz helmets and jerseys help. I've ridden a BMW GS (multiple versions through the years) motorcycle for years and always wear a schuberth hi viz helmet when I ride. You can spot the helmet far away. granted, you do look like a teletubby, but I am much more noticeable to other drivers on the road than if I were wearing a black helmet. I take the moto to my office once or twice a week, but I don't ride nearly as much as I did in the past, as it's getting worse on the roads. That said, I feel infinitely safer on my motorcycle than on my R3 or tri bike hammering away on the side of the road. Riding a motorcycle requires you to be locked in (no phones, no music, etc), however, it allows for the unique perspective of seeing almost every driver holding a phone in one hand and staring at its screen, which is absolutely horrifying. You really notice how stupid people are on a moto because you are moving at the same rate of speed. It's rare I see somebody not looking at a phone. High viz can only help. Also, motorists are much more respectful to me when I am on my motorcycle than road bike if they nearly kill me. Apologize immediately and wave, etc. It's the inverse on my road bike. I've received several f-you a few times a month and the general comments that most cyclists receive.

Thanks for that info Nerd. It really pisses me off that I may end up pedaling in place staring at a screen indoors down the road (not yet) because of smartphones. Are those of us who are pissed that motorists aren't punished more severely after injuring cyclists also just as pissed that more states haven't passed laws prohibiting phone use in motor vehicles?

Also, I know that motorcyclists talk about riding as if you are invisible to other road users. I also think that is crucial for cyclists to do. Make sure you are visible, of course, but don't expect other road users to see you. Ride with vigilance.

Georgia recently passed such a law. Obeying that law hasn't fully caught on.

I'm guessing it will take a movement like MADD for there to be much change in enforcement regarding phone use in motor vehicles, but passing laws are a start. Currently, it seems U.S. folks have decided surrounding themselves with more metal is the best way to deal with what's happening on the roads.

I think hi viz shoes and socks only help. Your feet and legs are in motion. That is what might catch a driver’s eye. The rest just blends into the background and is marked up by retailers to prey on safety conscious consumers.

I think you are right... believe I saw a study to that effect somewhere.

But the really bright flashing lights are the best. And these days they are so cheap and easy to use, there is no excuse.

Sure, but how many drivers will hit a cyclist that they actually see? And by "see" I mean it registers in their brain. Thankfully no more than a tiny fraction of people would want to kill or injure a random person, and most of those wouldn't want to get their car dinged up... even if they thought they could hit and run.

When you make yourself nearly impossible *not* to notice, you've improved your odds tremendously. Plus the "I didn't see him" defense is no longer viable.

Saw this topic and first thought was "if front and rear lights are nice and bright then shouldn't matter".

Headed home last night after the A ride, someone not part of the group looked like a darned camouflaged forest creature. His rear blinky light had failed or was out of battery and he had the dimmest little front blinky light I'd ever seen.

He was asking to get hit. I thought I saw a random object moving in the bike lane up ahead. When I caught and passed the dude I told him his rear lamp was out. He continued on in the road anyway after I passed.

He was wearing all black/navy kit. I couldn't see him as a fellow cyclist until I was withing bike headlight distance of him.

It was bad.

So, I can see the argument for at least some subtle reflective accents on a helmet or pedals. Maybe a reflective sticker on the back of the seat tube or something.